Microsoft joins Epic on the fight against Apple

[Lord Vile]

31 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It's easy to ignore VPN,  those web requests don't originate from a mobile source.   They also don't just take raw numbers and then go, well that's it.   There is a process in data collection where you have to average and account for confidence.  They can do that by ensuring their  loggers are numerous and well spaced,  they know which sites are more popular than others and they can differentiate by demographic.   

 

Basic good statistical analysis will provide more accurate results than sales figures alone.  Sales figures (shipments) do not account for replacements devices, devices sitting in warehouses or devices broken in bedside drawers or on hold as a Christmas present.

So all the mobile users with a VPN don't count.

 

Aside from you have no idea of their process and it could literally just be raw numbers. 

 

Assuming it is good stats which you don't know. 

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

So all the mobile users with a VPN don't count.

correct

2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Aside from you have no idea of their process and it could literally just be raw numbers. 

 

Assuming it is good stats which you don't know. 

GS stats, IDC, Gartner only operate because their data is good.  People don't buy bad data, it costs them too much.

 

 

[YT_DomDaBomb20]

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

A Switch has traditional game controller input where as a phone does not.

 

There's different devices for different styles of game play and "on screen virtual controls" may as well be trying to play with your nose. It's passible for turn-based games where the screen itself is more of a virtual mouse, but terrible when you need to hold the phone like a gamepad and obscure one quarter to a half of the phone with your hands.

 

So you basically need to play the game like this:

 

Which isn't really good for your head as either you're looking straight down, or you're holding the controller in the air at eye level.

Oh I play straight touch, but you can wirelessly connect a PS4 controller 

[Mark Kaine]

On 8/24/2020 at 2:29 PM, HarryNyquist said:

Epic played stupid games, and have won stupid prizes.

The fact that all these companies have come out "against" Apple at once makes me super suspicious about how well-organized this is. They had the suit ready in hours, an ad campaign ready in hours, multiple big-name companies with them in days, and throughout all of this, everyone has forgotten it was also nuked from the Google Play Store for the exact same reason it was nuked from the Apple App Store.

Yeah because Google is an open platform so nobody really cared as much (still "interesting"  they basically sided with Apple against big evil Epic... almost "suspicious"!) 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

Yeah because Google is an open platform so nobody really cared as much (still "interesting"  they basically sided with Apple against big evil Epic... almost "suspicious"!) 

Big Evil google sided with themselves, just like Big Evil MS sided with themselves,  the fact it aligns in some ways with Big Evil apple against Big Evil Epic is moot.

 

 

 

 

 

[Neftex]

-nvm-

Edited August 26, 2020 by Neftex
not relevant anymore

[Kisai]

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Of course Microsoft joins the fight against Apple.

Office is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, profit makers for Microsoft. We're talking billions of dollars yearly. Apple wants to take a 30% cut on that from iOS is ridiculous. 

 

What Microsoft calls "commercial cloud" where Office 365 is the lion share has an annualized run rate of 50 BILLION dollars. Of course, only a small fraction of that are probably from iOS sales (if you can even buy it on iOS?) but I mean, we're potentially talking about BILLIONS of dollars Microsoft has to just hand over to Apple just because Apple demades a 30% cut and doesn't allow any way of circumventing it.

Maybe look at the Microsoft Office, Word or Excel app before you guess what Microsoft pays Apple. It's almost likely to be next to nothing since Office users usually get Office via their business site licences.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Maybe look at the Microsoft Office, Word or Excel app before you guess what Microsoft pays Apple. It's almost likely to be next to nothing since Office users usually get Office via their business site licences.

office for ios has in app purchases.  You have to buy the version (personal or family) in app.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Maybe look at the Microsoft Office, Word or Excel app before you guess what Microsoft pays Apple.

What do you mean?

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

It's almost likely to be next to nothing since Office users usually get Office via their business site licences.

Maybe, maybe not. Office is very popular for home use as well, and those do not get their licenses from work. But yeah, most of Office's revenues are probably from businesses though. 

But I am fairly sure Microsoft gives Apple a ton of money from the monopoly on payment APIs on iOS. Not to mention things like xCloud being banned on iOS which probably pissed Microsoft off quite a bit.

[Lord Vile]

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

correct

So you’re excluding a significant amount of data. 

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

GS stats, IDC, Gartner only operate because their data is good.  People don't buy bad data, it costs them too much.

 

 

Apart from GS data is free... it also contradicts itself saying OS market share is 14% iOS and 39% android 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

So you’re excluding a significant amount of data. 

nope

1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

Apart from GS data is free... it also contradicts itself saying OS market share is 14% iOS and 39% android 

I suggest you look into how those companies make their money.  The data you get for free is nothing but the most superficial.  Which is why people like you don't seem to understand it and think it is contradictory or wrong (except when you think it supports your argument of course).   

 

 

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Apart from it's not due to it being based off of website results so if one group frequents the sites they monitor more then it throws the entire result out. What about VPNs for example how does it log those. 

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

It's easy to ignore VPN,  those web requests don't originate from a mobile source.

I'd like to chime in on your conversation and say that a VPN does not hide which browser you use or which platform you are on. Even if you use a VPN on for example iOS, statcounter will correctly categorize your page view as being from iOS.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I'd like to chime in on your conversation and say that a VPN does not hide which browser you use or which platform you are on. Even if you use a VPN on for example iOS, statcounter will correctly categorize your page view as being from iOS.

That I wasn't aware of, I though the VPN service hid that information too. 

 

But thinking about it that would explain why fingerprinting is being used more often.

 

EDIT: so even though mobile vpn users are a small subset, its a moot point.

[Kisai]

53 minutes ago, mr moose said:

office for ios has in app purchases.  You have to buy the version (personal or family) in app.

 

51 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What do you mean?

 

 

At no point did I pay for anything, all I ever did was download the app and login using the active directory login.

 

Like I said, just because something has IAP's, doesn't mean that the customer is required to use the IAP.

 

 

 Mac verison: https://apps.apple.com/us/app-bundle/microsoft-365/id1450038993?mt=12

 

iOS version:

Take note:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/word-mobile/9wzdncrfjb9s?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

 

 

You can use the mobile (iOS) versions of Office software without the 365 subscription, it's only the computers where you can only view the documents without it. At least on the iPhone, there's no opportunity, anywhere, to actually purchase it (I originally downloaded it to view stuff sent to me from the office before it was ever logged in.) 

 

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/

Quote

3.1.3(b) Multiplatform Services: Apps that operate across multiple platforms may allow users to access content, subscriptions, or features they have acquired in your app on other platforms or your web site, including consumable items in multiplatform games, provided those items are also available as in-app purchases within the app. You must not directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods must not discourage use of in-app purchase.

 

Versus (the often repeated "why aren't restaurants paying this 30% fee")

Quote

3.1.5(a) Goods and Services Outside of the App: If your app enables people to purchase goods or services that will be consumed outside of the app, you must use purchase methods other than in-app purchase to collect those payments, such as Apple Pay or traditional credit card entry.

 

Personally, I'm not sure why anyone would start an office subscription on an iPhone where they don't need to pay for it in the first place. They would only do this to get access to OneDrive features to synchronize with the desktop version, which I used rather frequently today (used the phone to scan dell serial numbers) and then went back to the desktop version to type out the name. Works about 90% of the time.

 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

 

At no point did I pay for anything, all I ever did was download the app and login using the active directory login.

 

Like I said, just because something has IAP's, doesn't mean that the customer is required to use the IAP.

 

 

 Mac verison: https://apps.apple.com/us/app-bundle/microsoft-365/id1450038993?mt=12

 

iOS version:

Take note:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/word-mobile/9wzdncrfjb9s?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

 

 

You can use the mobile (iOS) versions of Office software without the 365 subscription, it's only the computers where you can only view the documents without it. At least on the iPhone, there's no opportunity, anywhere, to actually purchase it (I originally downloaded it to view stuff sent to me from the office before it was ever logged in.) 

 

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/

 

Versus (the often repeated "why aren't restaurants paying this 30% fee")

 

Personally, I'm not sure why anyone would start an office subscription on an iPhone where they don't need to pay for it in the first place. They would only do this to get access to OneDrive features to synchronize with the desktop version, which I used rather frequently today (used the phone to scan dell serial numbers) and then went back to the desktop version to type out the name. Works about 90% of the time.

 

It even lists 10 in app purchases you can make in your screen shot. 

 

Why try to argue they don't make money from it when it clearly has in app purchases?

 

[LAwLz]

55 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That I wasn't aware of, I though the VPN service hid that information too. 

 

But thinking about it that would explain why fingerprinting is being used more often.

 

EDIT: so even though mobile vpn users are a small subset, its a moot point.

Yeah, and websites actually need to access that kind of info (platform and browser info) in order to determine what to serve to your device.

That's how you still get served the mobile version of a website even if you are browsing with a VPN on iOS/Android, or how you get served the Windows download link for a program while using a VPN despite the VPN server probably running GNU/Linux.

[Kisai]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

It even lists 10 in app purchases you can make in your screen shot. 

 

Why try to argue they don't make money from it when it clearly has in app purchases?

 

Again:

a) Most people who have Office already, have it through their employer

and

b) The Microsoft apps are free on the iPhone and iPad. There is nothing required to buy.

 

Here's the difference between being logged in as an Enterprise user and as a Free user:

a) As an enterprise user, the "Premium" icon is completely absent

b) As a user that is not logged in , the "Premium" icon is completely absent

c) As a user that is logged in, but does not have an O365 account

 

And if you click on the premium icon you get this:

 

This is one of the nicest darn apps that has IAP's on the iPhone, the "premium" upgrade feature is out of the way and not nagging you every time you tap on a feature that isn't available, because the app is completely functional minus the OneDrive synchronization.

 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Again:

a) Most people who have Office already, have it through their employer

and

b) The Microsoft apps are free on the iPhone and iPad. There is nothing required to buy.

 

Here's the difference between being logged in as an Enterprise user and as a Free user:

a) As an enterprise user, the "Premium" icon is completely absent

b) As a user that is not logged in , the "Premium" icon is completely absent

c) As a user that is logged in, but does not have an O365 account

 

And if you click on the premium icon you get this:

 

This is one of the nicest darn apps that has IAP's on the iPhone, the "premium" upgrade feature is out of the way and not nagging you every time you tap on a feature that isn't available, because the app is completely functional minus the OneDrive synchronization.

 

Well done, you have successfully proven office for ios has in app purchases.

 

 

[Kisai]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Well done, you have successfully proven office for ios has in app purchases.

 

 

Still missing the point. The opportunity to use the IAP isn't made available unless Microsoft ALREADY has your information and you logged into it. You know, like if you had an Xbox Live account or use outlook.com (formerly known as hotmail.)

 

[LAwLz]

9 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Again:

a) Most people who have Office already, have it through their employer

and

b) The Microsoft apps are free on the iPhone and iPad. There is nothing required to buy.

 

Here's the difference between being logged in as an Enterprise user and as a Free user:

a) As an enterprise user, the "Premium" icon is completely absent

 

b) As a user that is not logged in , the "Premium" icon is completely absent

 

c) As a user that is logged in, but does not have an O365 account

 

 

And if you click on the premium icon you get this:

 

 

This is one of the nicest darn apps that has IAP's on the iPhone, the "premium" upgrade feature is out of the way and not nagging you every time you tap on a feature that isn't available, because the app is completely functional minus the OneDrive synchronization.

 

Honestly, your posts read likes the ramblings of a madman.

I really don't understand what anything you have said in your overly long post has to do with what I said.

 

All I said was that it makes sense for Microsoft to join the fight against Apple because one of their most profitable businesses are Office 365 and I don't think they want Apple taking a 30% cut of all iOS sales (however many that might be), and because Apple also blocked xCloud.

Then you go on rambling about how you technically can use Office 365 without giving Apple a cut which I never said you couldn't.

 

What I think you're trying to do with this is "prove" that Apple isn't getting money from Office 365, but then massive parts of your posts are about how Apple can get a cut from Office 365 sales because the iOS apps contain in-app purchases which Apple do get 30% from.

Again, what is your point? Please summarize it in a sentence or two. Is it "most sales of Office 365 aren't being done using Apple's IAP API"? Because I understand that argument and totally agree with it, but at the same time I never said the contrary. 

Is your argument that iOS users aren't buying Office 365 at all? Because you haven't posted any evidence of that not being true. All you have done is explain how you could use some features of Office 365 on iOS without paying, but the app still contains IAP to unlock all functionality, as well as support for more devices. I just don't get your arguments. I am honestly trying.

 

 

  

2 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Still missing the point. The opportunity to use the IAP isn't made available unless Microsoft ALREADY has your information and you logged into it. You know, like if you had an Xbox Live account or use outlook.com (formerly known as hotmail.)

Okay now I think I get it.

So your argument, if I understand you correctly, is that in order to use Office 365 on iOS, a user has to already have created a Microsoft account on a non-iOS device?

1) Doesn't that break Apple's iOS ToS? I thought apps that were useless by themselves were not allowed.

2) How does that have anything to do with what I said? Just a reminder, my argument that you replied to was essentially "yeah it makes sense for Microsoft to join the fight against Apple because if Apple loses then Microsoft can keep more profits to themselves".

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Still missing the point. The opportunity to use the IAP isn't made available unless Microsoft ALREADY has your information and you logged into it. You know, like if you had an Xbox Live account or use outlook.com (formerly known as hotmail.)

 

which means?

 

[Kisai]

7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Honestly, your posts read likes the ramblings of a madman.

I really don't understand what anything you have said in your overly long post has to do with what I said.

 

You can use Office on the iPhone without paying for anything because Microsoft gets their money for Office from Office (desktop) users in a business. If for some reason you're paying for Office 365 via the IAP, then you're pretty much throwing money away to begin with, since the feature you get for subscribing is the desktop version. Nothing changes in the App regardless if you are logged in or not. 

 

In all likeliness Microsoft isn't pushy about it on the iPhone because the iPhone versions are the HTML5 apps, not native apps.

 

The same apps you get if you login to office.com, note where the "Go Premium" icon is on the web version compared to the App.

 

 

 

 

[Kisai]

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Okay now I think I get it.

So your argument, if I understand you correctly, is that in order to use Office 365 on iOS, a user has to already have created a Microsoft account on a non-iOS device?

1) Doesn't that break Apple's iOS ToS? I thought apps that were useless by themselves were not allowed.

2) How does that have anything to do with what I said? Just a reminder, my argument that you replied to was essentially "yeah it makes sense for Microsoft to join the fight against Apple because if Apple loses then Microsoft can keep more profits to themselves".

1) Presumably you can create an account on the iOS device via the web browser, which is how you'd have done this unless you originally created an account on the Xbox Live service, MSN Messenger or Skype services, which Microsoft all folded into the same thing.

 

2) Microsoft is only backing Epic here in regards to the Unreal Engine, nothing else. Unless something to the contrary comes out, I'm assuming that Microsoft has software running on Unreal Engine that is destined for iOS, but I wouldn't know what that could be.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/mixed-reality/unreal-development-overview?tabs=mrtk

Quote

Getting started with mixed reality applications is a big task. New concepts, platforms, and cutting edge hardware can seem like barriers. However, if you're an Unreal developer you're in luck. Support for Windows Mixed Reality (VR) and HoloLens 2 (AR) is now included in Unreal Engine's newest release. This update includes:

• Mixed Reality UX Tools plugin support
• OpenXR support
• App Remoting from a desktop app
• Better performance
• Mixed reality capture
• Initial support for Azure Spatial Anchors

Or perhaps it would undermine their HoloLens 2 project.

[LAwLz]

9 minutes ago, Kisai said:

You can use Office on the iPhone without paying for anything because Microsoft gets their money for Office from Office (desktop) users in a business. If for some reason you're paying for Office 365 via the IAP, then you're pretty much throwing money away to begin with, since the feature you get for subscribing is the desktop version. Nothing changes in the App regardless if you are logged in or not.

There are a couple of things wrong or omitted in your post though.

1) From what I understand, you can only view or edit documents in iOS if you are not logged in. You need an account (free or paid) to create documents. Not really important to the conversation but I thought I'd throw that in.

2) Everything you have said applies to the iPhone, but not the iPad. Since some iPads, like the iPad Pro, do not qualify for the "free Office" offer and you need an Office 365 subscription to use it. So if you have just gotten your new fancy iPad and try to open Word on it you will be prompted with something along the lines of "sorry but you need a subscription to use this, want to buy it?" and then if you click yes Apple gets 30%, and Microsoft are not allowed to tell users that "hey, you can buy the subscription from our website if you want to use Office on your iPad".

 

 

Also, from what I understand the versions of the Office apps you get with the free and premium versions are different. For example in Word you do not have change tracking unless you have an Office 365 subscription, and some stuff like picture formatting tools are not available either without an active (paid) subscription. I can't verify this for myself since I don't have an iOS device, but if this is the case then buying an Office 365 subscription on iOS, even on an iPhone, is not just throwing money away since you unlock more features inside the app.

OneDrive also gains a lot of extra stuff for example 1TB of storage even on iOS. So clearly you're being a bit hyperbole or exaggerative when you say you don't gain anything on iOS.

[Kisai]

7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

There are a couple of things wrong or omitted in your post though.

1) From what I understand, you can only view or edit documents in iOS if you are not logged in. You need an account (free or paid) to create documents.

No you can create documents without ever logging in. The App behaves slightly differently from the web version in this regard since there is no place to save on the iPhone but "on the phone" thus making sharing it kinda less intuitive than simply saving to onedrive.

 

... and I jumped the gun a little. Looks like you can create, but you can't edit it again. It prompts you to login if you actually try to save the draft to the device.

 

Quote

2) Everything you have said applies to the iPhone, but not the iPad. Since some iPads, like the iPad Pro, do not qualify for the "free Office" offer and you need an Office 365 subscription to use it. So if you have just gotten your new fancy iPad and try to open Word on it you will be prompted with something along the lines of "sorry but you need a subscription to use this, want to buy it?" and then if you click yes Apple gets 30%, and Microsoft are not allowed to tell users that "hey, you can buy the subscription from our website if you want to use Office on your iPad".

Nah, this is something you kinda have to read between the lines. The iPad is exactly the size of the screen mentioned, but the iPad Pro is not. As I don't have an iPad Pro, I could not confirm this.

 

It might be more likely that someone with an iPad Pro would want to buy Office on their device, but it still seems unlikely that someone would buy it just for a mobile device like a phone, since you typically aren't going to write a document on the phone, only respond to email and read things.