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Microsoft joins Epic on the fight against Apple

That lawsuit serves Microsoft's interests as well,they invested heavily in Unreal Engine...

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12 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Personally, I'm against Epic in this fight just simply because of their tactics: they agreed to Apple's policies, then deliberately released an update for Fortnite outside of accepted update-methods and included functionality that was not accepted, either, knowing full-well that Forkknife would get removed for that. Then they immediately filed a lawsuit they had already prepared beforehand and a video painting Apple as the Big Bad, recruiting naíve gamers to form a mob, in an attempt to use mob-tactics against Apple -- with the video itself also having been prepared already before Forkknife was ever removed from the App Store in the first place!

 

It's the recruiting of all these kids and impressionable people who don't know better through underhanded tactics that most upsets me and it sets a very nasty precedent for other companies to follow, if Epic does win this whole thing.

Slightly unrelated but I really hate how this forum and most of the tech community in general just makes braindead HURR DURR APPLE BAD!!!1!1 posts or replies or whatever. The way I see it, Epic broke the rules and deserves the punishment they get.

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2 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

in that aspect i'm in agreement, but clearly there's the "don't hate the player, hate the game" going on, especially with corporate allegiances from spotify (in agreement) and microsoft (in fears of fallout)

Think Epics issue here is apple isn't really doing anything wrong and they're not even the majority marketshare holder in any sector they're in, aside from tablets. 

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I'm confused why everyone is talking about games. Microsoft showed support for Epic, a games company. But it's not just games that are affected by this. Wordpress is in trouble too and just look at LMG. More specifically floatplane. There's a reason why the floatplane app hasn't been updated in a looong time and if this continues, the app might be just gone eventually.

 

Also if Apple wins, there's nothing holding them back of increasing their fee to 99%. I doubt if they will do that but legally they can and there would be nothing you can do about it, apart from ditching Apple completely.

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3 minutes ago, samcool55 said:

Also if Apple wins, there's nothing holding them back of increasing their fee to 99%

That's a terrible strawman. Apple could've done that already, if they wanted to; there's literally nothing stopping them even at this very moment.

4 minutes ago, samcool55 said:

But it's not just games that are affected by this.

By "this" you mean....deliberately breaking the App Store's policies in the hopes of provoking exactly the response Epic got? No, as far as I know, none of the apps you mentioned have done that and as such they are a separate issue. What Epic is doing and the troubles these apps are in are two different things and should not be mixed the way people are mixing them.

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12 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

in that aspect i'm in agreement, but clearly there's the "don't hate the player, hate the game" going on, especially with corporate allegiances from spotify (in agreement) and microsoft (in fears of fallout)

 

personally i'm of the stance that both parties are not in the right in a lot of aspects, so i can't just say Apple bad or Epic bad exclusively, just for this suit

Great way of putting it. Both Apple and Epic did fuck up, but in this one specific case I'm siding with Apple.

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2 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

That's cool. But let's be real, who cares about about missing games on their App Store hah. Very young kids lol? 

On the other hand like Apple ever gave a slight f about gaming. 

 

1 hour ago, oeci said:

Gaming on phones is stupid anyway. If I want to play games on the go I get a Switch.

well my friend is sort of a hardcore phone gamer though to be fair he sort of goes hardcore on every game he plays. I think hes rank 3 or something on a phone game called girls frontline, he had almost every hero max level on fate grand order a phone game before he quit. he was one of the first person to have full tri boss gear on a PC mmo called bdo before he quit and he has every frame weapon and mod on warframe on PC

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29 minutes ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Slightly unrelated but I really hate how this forum and most of the tech community in general just makes braindead HURR DURR APPLE BAD!!!1!1 posts or replies or whatever. The way I see it, Epic broke the rules and deserves the punishment they get.

i dont mind that they got removed from the apple app store but there should be other app stores and sideloading 

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3 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

put it this way, 1 apple smartphone to every 2 samsung smartphone is not a trivial amount

https://www.idc.com/promo/smartphone-market-share/vendor

But store wise iOS only has 25% of the market vs Googles 75%. It's not brand vs brand more OS vs OS when you're talking about how Epic fits in.

3 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

 

also just to clarify, yes, epic is running afoul of apple's rules (which could arguably weaken their legitimacy in their case somehow), but the point epic is trying to make is that the guidelines are pretty bunk to begin with (hence the discussion everywhere)

Think another issue is the rules are fairly standard across the board and Epic are only doing this now because of the Antitrust investigation. Sony takes a similar cut on the PSN for everything sold there. They split that cut with the shops on physical sales the Devs don't actually get anything more. 

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3 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

By "this" you mean....deliberately breaking the App Store's policies in the hopes of provoking exactly the response Epic got? No, as far as I know, none of the apps you mentioned have done that and as such they are a separate issue. What Epic is doing and the troubles these apps are in are two different things and should not be mixed the way people are mixing them.

Well, this happend...:

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/22/21397424/apple-wordpress-apology-iap-free-ios-app?scrolla=5eb6d68b7fedc32c19ef33b4

 

So basically, there's a solution. Don't allow people from within the app to go outside the app to buy anything and don't make in-app purchases possible.

 

And I REALLY doubt Floatplane broke the App Store's policy on purpose.

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1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

i dont mind that they got removed from the apple app store but there should be other app stores and sideloading 

Yeah good luck with trying to sideload apps on an iPhone, Apple would never add that feature lol.

 

Why do people even care so much? Gaming on a phone is fucking horrible. Touchscreens are garbage, the screens are small, etc.

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https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws

 

 

2 minutes ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Yeah good luck with trying to sideload apps on an iPhone, Apple would never add that feature lol.

 

Why do people even care so much? Gaming on a phone is fucking horrible. Touchscreens are garbage, the screens are small, etc.

opinion doesnt matter

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5 minutes ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Yeah good luck with trying to sideload apps on an iPhone, Apple would never add that feature lol.

 

Why do people even care so much? Gaming on a phone is fucking horrible. Touchscreens are garbage, the screens are small, etc.

its not about games its about apps in general and ownership of the device. just look at what apple tried to do with wordpress. and i expect in the future apple will try to leverage their position more and more

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3 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

its not about games its about apps in general and ownership of the device. just look at what apple tried to do with wordpress. and i expect in the future apple will try to leverage their position more and more

So people can stop buying their devices instead of buying and complaining.

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16 minutes ago, kelvinhall05 said:

The way I see it, Epic broke the rules and deserves the punishment they get.

 

It depends really.  Apple has a tenancy to pick and choose/make exceptions, and yet they hold a monopolistic power for developers.  Honestly the issues with the App store and the way Apple wields it, eventually there would be a company that challenged Apple.  Just because there is a rule, doesn't mean it is just.  Remember it is illegal to shake your doormat before 8am in London.

 

7 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Think Epics issue here is apple isn't really doing anything wrong and they're not even the majority marketshare holder in any sector they're in, aside from tablets.

They control over 50% of total App sales revenue.  Apple isn't as innocent.  As I've stated before, Apple had also tried introducing a change that would make pricing be consistent for other payment methods (despite them taking a 30% cut). [And I suspect that the only reason it didn't make the final ToS was that at the time developers were already shouting about lawsuits].

 

The fact is Apple can be considered to have a monopolist power.  This is no way a black and white issue here, this really comes down to how much should a company have control of a market and should they be able to dictate the rules without competition.  In this case as well, since they control the API and will be restricting Epic from accessing it they are effectively trying to push their dominance and closed platform system and force developers to agree (or lose out on 50% of revenue)

 

[Before anyone says, but there is Android, NO there isn't in this case.  Consumers have a choice between Android and IOS, but developers risk too much by only supporting one platform.  Yes, smaller developers might only develop for one platform but any big name player would need to support both.  Imagine if your twitter/other popular app said we aren't going to release on IOS, I am sure they would be no where near as popular]

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1 hour ago, WereCatf said:

Personally, I'm against Epic in this fight just simply because of their tactics: they agreed to Apple's policies, then deliberately released an update for Fortnite outside of accepted update-methods and included functionality that was not accepted, either, knowing full-well that Forkknife would get removed for that. Then they immediately filed a lawsuit they had already prepared beforehand and a video painting Apple as the Big Bad, recruiting naíve gamers to form a mob, in an attempt to use mob-tactics against Apple -- with the video itself also having been prepared already before Forkknife was ever removed from the App Store in the first place!

 

It's the recruiting of all these kids and impressionable people who don't know better through underhanded tactics that most upsets me and it sets a very nasty precedent for other companies to follow, if Epic does win this whole thing.

I don't agree with either side in this situation, but I find Epic especially hypocritical with their tactics. Is Fortnite available on Steam? Origin? GOG? No, it's available exclusively on their storefront and sold nowhere else on PC. In fact, aside from older titles that were released on Steam before Epic had a storefront, I can't think of many modern Epic titles available on Steam. For a company with gamers best interests at heart, they have zero problems engaging in the same exclusivity nonsense when it's convenient for them. Ignoring their own IP's, they are also responsible for storefront exclusivity deals and time-gated deals that impacted sales on other storefronts. Remember when people pre-ordered Metro Exodus on Steam, only for them to sign a timed exclusivity deal with Epic's store, then had to deal with a massive headache trying to figure out if their pre-orders would be honored? Imagine if they did this with a multi-player game, and you couldn't play with your friends unless the game itself had it's own dedicated servers or offered some kind of peer to peer connection.

 

Epic isn't this white knight out here fighting on behalf of gamers & developers. They are still a business, and have no problem engaging in these very practices when it's to their benefit.

 

With that being said, I don't want to see Apple win this simply to spite Epic over my displeasure with their practices. There is still very much an issue going on with Apple's stranglehold over their "ecosystem", and I'd like to see consumers be granted more choices in how they want to use their products and whether they want to risk installing apps deemed "unsafe" by Apple.

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2 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

That's cool. But let's be real, who cares about about missing games on their App Store hah. Very young kids lol? 

On the other hand like Apple ever gave a slight f about gaming. 

The mobile market is insanely massive now and it's a huge revenue stream for many. Apple cares a lot about gaming as they have the whole Apple Arcade based around it. They also promote AR games like crazy

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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32 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

It depends really.  Apple has a tenancy to pick and choose/make exceptions, and yet they hold a monopolistic power for developers.  Honestly the issues with the App store and the way Apple wields it, eventually there would be a company that challenged Apple.  Just because there is a rule, doesn't mean it is just.  Remember it is illegal to shake your doormat before 8am in London.

 

They control over 50% of total App sales revenue.  Apple isn't as innocent.  As I've stated before, Apple had also tried introducing a change that would make pricing be consistent for other payment methods (despite them taking a 30% cut). [And I suspect that the only reason it didn't make the final ToS was that at the time developers were already shouting about lawsuits].

And Sony control well over 50% of console sales? 

32 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

The fact is Apple can be considered to have a monopolist power.  This is no way a black and white issue here, this really comes down to how much should a company have control of a market and should they be able to dictate the rules without competition.  In this case as well, since they control the API and will be restricting Epic from accessing it they are effectively trying to push their dominance and closed platform system and force developers to agree (or lose out on 50% of revenue)

 

[Before anyone says, but there is Android, NO there isn't in this case.  Consumers have a choice between Android and IOS, but developers risk too much by only supporting one platform.  Yes, smaller developers might only develop for one platform but any big name player would need to support both.  Imagine if your twitter/other popular app said we aren't going to release on IOS, I am sure they would be no where near as popular]

That's dev choice, support a platform or don't. If I want to sell a product on any market it has to be in line with their guidelines.

Dirty Windows Peasants :P ?

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4 hours ago, HarryNyquist said:

Epic played stupid games, and have won stupid prizes.

The fact that all these companies have come out "against" Apple at once makes me super suspicious about how well-organized this is. They had the suit ready in hours, an ad campaign ready in hours, multiple big-name companies with them in days, and throughout all of this, everyone has forgotten it was also nuked from the Google Play Store for the exact same reason it was nuked from the Apple App Store.

I doubt it's well organized. It's more of a shell game. "Let's see who has an axe to grind"

 

Microsoft actually doesn't. Only Epic and those licencing the Unreal Engine 5 do, since nothing using UE5 is available yet. Existing UE4 licences likely will just keep using their existing UE4 engines without updating them until this is resolved, and if it never gets resolved then their software will likely never get fixes for iOS bugs, or bugs introduced with iOS updates.

 

Like you see how desperately grasping at straws some news sites are for finding bad news about Apple because they all have the same axe to grind "I don't want Apple taking any money from me if I put an app on their device." Really, screw those sites. Those living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

Epic, really is just full of crap:

https://mobilesyrup.com/2020/08/23/epic-files-motion-apple-threatening-ecosystem-game-developers/

 

Epic, as the developer of Unreal, can, and does make the game engine source code available.

https://www.unrealengine.com/ue4-on-github

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/GettingStarted/DownloadingUnrealEngine/index.html

Quote

Before you can access the repository at https://github.com/EpicGames/UnrealEngine , you must:

  • be an Unreal Engine subscriber.

  • have a GitHub account.

  • have associated your GitHub account with your Unreal Engine account as described on the UE4 on GitHub page.

Which means Microsoft's claim is also a bold faced lie. Microsoft can upstream any fixes to UE4 just as easily as anyone else.

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1 hour ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Yeah good luck with trying to sideload apps on an iPhone, Apple would never add that feature lol.

Unless they have no choice.

 

I mean Microsoft got shafted in lawsuits just for including a default browser in Windows when all it took was a couple of clicks to install another, and you could choose to not run Windows at all on the machine you bought in the first place. Yet Apple can happily lock the entire platform to their own business and nobody's batting an eye?

 

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4 hours ago, HarryNyquist said:

Epic played stupid games, and have won stupid prizes.

The fact that all these companies have come out "against" Apple at once makes me super suspicious about how well-organized this is. They had the suit ready in hours, an ad campaign ready in hours, multiple big-name companies with them in days, and throughout all of this, everyone has forgotten it was also nuked from the Google Play Store for the exact same reason it was nuked from the Apple App Store.

Epic are also sueing Google from the Play Store removal I believe. 

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3 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

Unless they have no choice.

 

I mean Microsoft got shafted in lawsuits just for including a default browser in Windows when all it took was a couple of clicks to install another, and you could choose to not run Windows at all on the machine you bought in the first place. Yet Apple can happily lock the entire platform to their own business and nobody's batting an eye?

 

Microsoft didn't own computers Windows came with and they shilled Windows quite desperately to end up on as many systems as possible. The situation with Apple is very much unique and very much different. Their OS always ONLY comes on their hardware. Which puts them in unique position. Demanding things from them is like demanding from Nokia to allow you to install Linux or Windows on their feature phones instead of proprietary OS they had on them and only came with Nokia phones.

 

I don't know where people get this idea that they can demand anything from Apple. Don't like Apple? Go with Google/Android. Don't like Google, go with LineageOS or GrapheneOS. Don't like either? Well, you should use a feature phone then. Again, that's like demanding BMW to stop integrating hi-fi systems from whatever vendor in favor of some other. They decided to use X brand and that's end of it. I don't see people marching around and protesting it. Yet they do for Apple. Coz reasons. It's not their fault that their own products created an entire own segment inside a certain branch of products. They are not invading Android's space or Windows space, because it's entirely unique to their own devices. And their own devices only. You can't buy an Android phone and somehow increase their market share or market presence. You have to specifically buy their device with their software and their app market.

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16 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

Unless they have no choice.

 

I mean Microsoft got shafted in lawsuits just for including a default browser in Windows when all it took was a couple of clicks to install another, and you could choose to not run Windows at all on the machine you bought in the first place. Yet Apple can happily lock the entire platform to their own business and nobody's batting an eye?

 

That's because they were tying MSIE to the OS, which harmed existing, freely available, better software. The same happened with the media player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Commission

Quote

Microsoft Corp v Commission (2007) T-201/04 is a case brought by the European Commission of the European Union (EU) against Microsoft for abuse of its dominant position in the market (according to competition law). It started as a complaint from Sun Microsystems over Microsoft's licensing practices in 1993, and eventually resulted in the EU ordering Microsoft to divulge certain information about its server products and release a version of Microsoft Windows without Windows Media Player. The European Commission especially focused on the interoperability issue.[1]

Anyone familiar with that case or the MSIE case in the US, the problem wasn't that the MSIE or WMP exist, but that the ability to produce a software that competitive with those products on the OS, was maligned in ways that Microsoft had been doing since DOS 5.0. In the case of MSIE and WMP, the OS would not let you set other software as the default and often steal back (and sometimes still does with Edge/Edge-Chromium) the default browser and media player preferences. Hence the entire "ballot box" requirement on the EU versions of Windows when you first install it.

 

Quote


The case of Microsoft v Commission shed light on the difference of judgments between the US Antitrust Laws and EU Competition Law. In regard to Competition Law, when the Commission, incorrectly decides that a behavior by a firm is abusive (when in fact it is not), the business of the firm is harmed, and the consumers lose out by missing out on the products or services offered by the business. In this situation, the law is over-inclusive, and is known as a ‘False Positive’. The US Antitrust Laws are more concerned with false positives and the authorities are more likely to step back.

The second scenario, where the Commission concludes that a behavior by a firm is not abusive (but it is), the firm is left alone to its own devices and to its anti-competitive practices, which may affect the competition process and cause irreparable damages, and ultimately the consumers are harmed. As a result of the law being under-inclusive, the firms get away with their anti-competitive practices. This is known as a ‘False Negative’, and the European Union Competition Commission is more concerned with this, and it would rather interfere than step back.

 

[16]The US court’s fear of false positives was seen in the case of Verizon Communication Inc v Law offices of Curtis Trinko (2004) which was about refusal to supply.The US Supreme court stated that it had to include a realistic comparison between the costs and the benefits of antitrust intervention. It stated that mistaken conclusions and false condemnations are very costly and that they negate the purpose which antitrust laws are designed to protect. [17] In the EU, the case relevance is IMS Health GmbH & Co. OHG v NDC Health GmbH & CO. KG, in which the Court of Justice laid down limited conditions under which a dominant firm’s refusal to license IP to a competitor constitutes an abuse of a dominant position in violation of Article 82 of the Treaty establishing the European Community (Now Article 102 TFEU).

Take note of that last sentence. Had Epic done this in the EU, they would more likely have the courts sympathy when Apple pulled their developer account. However Apple hasn't refused to license anything, rather pulled their access to the App store, which in Apple's case, they should not have the developer documentation behind a paywall.

 

https://www.theregister.com/1999/11/05/how_ms_played_the_incompatibility/

Quote

MS on Trial One of the claims by Caldera that Microsoft wanted dismissed concerned intentional incompatibilities between Windows and DR-DOS. David Cole and Phil Barrett exchanged emails on 30 September 1991: " "It's pretty clear we need to make sure Windows 3.1 only runs on top of MS DOS or an OEM version of it," and "The approach we will take is to detect dr 6 and refuse to load. The error message should be something like 'Invalid device driver interface.'" Microsoft had several methods of detecting and sabotaging the use of DR-DOS with Windows, one incorporated into "Bambi", the code name that Microsoft used for its disk cache utility (SMARTDRV) that detected DR-DOS and refused to load it for Windows 3.1. The AARD code trickery is well-known, but Caldera is now pursuing four other deliberate incompatibilities. 

Microsoft was already known to pull this crap and sabotage their competition. This by the way, also prevents running Windows 3.1 and 95 in DOSBOX without booting MSDOS 5/6/7.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

the OS would not let you set other software as the default and often steal back (and sometimes still does with Edge/Edge-Chromium) the default browser and media player preferences.

Well, for how many years has it not been possible to choose a default app other other than the built in ones on iOS? About 12, and still the case today.

F@H
Desktop: i9-13900K, ASUS Z790-E, 64GB DDR5-6000 CL36, RTX3080, 2TB MP600 Pro XT, 2TB SX8200Pro, 2x16TB Ironwolf RAID0, Corsair HX1200, Antec Vortex 360 AIO, Thermaltake Versa H25 TG, Samsung 4K curved 49" TV, 23" secondary, Mountain Everest Max

Mobile SFF rig: i9-9900K, Noctua NH-L9i, Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX-AC, 32GB, GTX1070, 2x1TB SX8200Pro RAID0, 2x5TB 2.5" HDD RAID0, Athena 500W Flex (Noctua fan), Custom 4.7l 3D printed case

 

Asus Zenbook UM325UA, Ryzen 7 5700u, 16GB, 1TB, OLED

 

GPD Win 2

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