[SOLVED] How can I get lowest latency possible (with shitty illustration)

[porina]

1 hour ago, Aurosis said:

"When in doubt, buy CAT 8.1."

Fine, I bothered to look it up. So cat 8.1 is rated to 40gig. Are you ever going to need 40gig at home in the next couple of years? 6 or 6a will do for 10gig and even that isn't exactly cheap to implement, never mind what 40gig will cost.

[Retrodex Gaming]

Easiest option as above is CAT5e, and with a tiny bit of YouTube research you can just drill straight through the outside wall, run the cable down the outside of the house and into some RJ45 wall sockets.

 

Just wired my entire house up this way(Thanks Linus for making me spend more money with your home upgrade!). RJ45 termination is an absolute doddle! Most homes in the last 25 years can have new points added with nothing more than a drill, drywall saw and a bit of filler!

[Aurosis]

4 hours ago, Caennanu said:

you're welcome. no idea about trophy's. don't care much.

Treat others as you wish to be treated, right?

I have new problem. I contacted my internet provider and asked them if they could send me a second modem (so I can install my Netgear router).

 

They couldn't send a second modem my way. I didn't care much, because I am going to upgrade my internet connection to 1Gbit, and when you upgrade to 1Gbit you will get a new modem as part of the deal.

 

So, once I upgrade to 1Gbit, I will have two modems, one can be installed in my living room, and the other one on the third floor (where my Netgear router is).

 

BUT... they said, once I receive my new modem, they will "disable" the old modem so I can't use it anymore. That to me sounds like total bullshit, how do you wanna "disable" a modem? Can they disable my old modem, or is this a scam, to get me to buy two internet subscriptions?

[Kilrah]

You can only have one modem on one internet line. 

You connect a router to it and then can distribute to as many devices as you want.

[Donut417]

52 minutes ago, Aurosis said:

BUT... they said, once I receive my new modem, they will "disable" the old modem so I can't use it anymore. That to me sounds like total bullshit, how do you wanna "disable" a modem? Can they disable my old modem, or is this a scam, to get me to buy two internet subscriptions?

One modem per account is generally the rule. You only get 1 IP address per account unless you pay extra. 2 modems would require 2 ip addresses. Yes they can disable modems by sending out firmware that kills it or they will just block it from network access. Also if the modem came from the ISP they might want it back. 

[Caennanu]

12 hours ago, Aurosis said:

I have new problem. I contacted my internet provider and asked them if they could send me a second modem (so I can install my Netgear router).

 

They couldn't send a second modem my way. I didn't care much, because I am going to upgrade my internet connection to 1Gbit, and when you upgrade to 1Gbit you will get a new modem as part of the deal.

 

So, once I upgrade to 1Gbit, I will have two modems, one can be installed in my living room, and the other one on the third floor (where my Netgear router is).

 

BUT... they said, once I receive my new modem, they will "disable" the old modem so I can't use it anymore. That to me sounds like total bullshit, how do you wanna "disable" a modem? Can they disable my old modem, or is this a scam, to get me to buy two internet subscriptions?

This is a little more complicated.

Technically you can have more than 1 modem on 1 line, as that is the foundation of the PON technology (besides me as a source, here is some information on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_optical_network) and with DSL you could technically have a shared line utilizing dial in over POTS and the DSL signal, but that is far from being worth it

 

If you are located in the EU, all providers are required to support non ISP modem's, so you're always free to use your own, you will just get limited to no support from the ISP as you are not using their equipment. So in that regard donut's answer is most correct.

If and when an ISP sends you a modem, they can (and will, AVG regulated in EU ofcourse) have full control over the hardware they send you. This generally doesn't mean they will send firmware to the modem to disable it. What i think they ment to tell you is that your old modem does not support the 1gb technology that you will obtain with the new sub and as such will be disabled. Not that it won't work, but simply it won't work with the technology type of the new subscription. This in turn means you could use it as switch / router, but you don't really want to do that asyou will have limited to no control over the hardware.

 

Generally speaking, households have 1 modem for the isp part, and the more advanced users will either use a managed switch / router to connect directly to the dsl or fiber signal or hook it up behind the modem supplied by the isp. From there on creating their own private network, it being virtual or actual doesn't really matter. This is 9 out of 10 times a star model, sometimes with a router in between, but most times with switches (this later is most common as you can connect to everything in the network, where that is a little more complicated when you connect multiple subnets to eachother)  (here you have a shitty illustration ;))

For your case, the most likely is a variantion to the upper, ill illustrate with another shitty illustration

[Aurosis]

8 hours ago, Caennanu said:

This is a little more complicated.

Technically you can have more than 1 modem on 1 line, as that is the foundation of the PON technology (besides me as a source, here is some information on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_optical_network) and with DSL you could technically have a shared line utilizing dial in over POTS and the DSL signal, but that is far from being worth it

 

If you are located in the EU, all providers are required to support non ISP modem's, so you're always free to use your own, you will just get limited to no support from the ISP as you are not using their equipment. So in that regard donut's answer is most correct.

If and when an ISP sends you a modem, they can (and will, AVG regulated in EU ofcourse) have full control over the hardware they send you. This generally doesn't mean they will send firmware to the modem to disable it. What i think they ment to tell you is that your old modem does not support the 1gb technology that you will obtain with the new sub and as such will be disabled. Not that it won't work, but simply it won't work with the technology type of the new subscription. This in turn means you could use it as switch / router, but you don't really want to do that asyou will have limited to no control over the hardware.

 

Generally speaking, households have 1 modem for the isp part, and the more advanced users will either use a managed switch / router to connect directly to the dsl or fiber signal or hook it up behind the modem supplied by the isp. From there on creating their own private network, it being virtual or actual doesn't really matter. This is 9 out of 10 times a star model, sometimes with a router in between, but most times with switches (this later is most common as you can connect to everything in the network, where that is a little more complicated when you connect multiple subnets to eachother)  (here you have a shitty illustration ;))

For your case, the most likely is a variantion to the upper, ill illustrate with another shitty illustration

Everybody has good internet, and there is me handicapped by one limitation after the other. Goddamn it!

 

I hate to break it to you, but... I will try a powerline adapter from Devolo and see how it works, if it performs badly, I will send it back. 

 

I want the modem and router on the third floor, but my mom is super old-school and still uses a conventional telephone network (landline). I can't run a 40 meter telephone cable, through the entire house and I don't see an alternative.

 

I think, you should always go with the times and adapt, ever changing, ever-evolving. However... I also understand, that you should accept past-protocol and accept that people want the smell of the past be kept alive, but... USE YOUR GODDAMN MOBILE PHONE. It's shiny, it's awesome. I don't get it... o.k., enough ranting.

 

You said:

"Powerlines work, if the plug connections are on the same breaker."

— Caennanu, 2020

 

How should I go about figuring out, if the connections are on the same breaker?

[Donut417]

56 minutes ago, Aurosis said:

 

How should I go about figuring out, if the connections are on the same breaker?

Go down to your electrical panel and see what it says. Generally stuff should be somewhat labeled. For example I found me and my mom’s bedrooms are on the same 15 Amp breaker. Also consider that rules and regulations for electrical are different in each country. Here in the US most rooms are on their own breakers. That might not apply everywhere. Also it depends on when your home was built as it might still use old standards. My home was originally built in the 1930s. It has been added on over the years. We have both copper and aluminum wiring in my home. Because originally aluminum was used for electrical, then copper became the standard. 

[Aurosis]

32 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Go down to your electrical panel and see what it says. Generally stuff should be somewhat labeled. For example I found me and my mom’s bedrooms are on the same 15 Amp breaker. Also consider that rules and regulations for electrical are different in each country. Here in the US most rooms are on their own breakers. That might not apply everywhere. Also it depends on when your home was built as it might still use old standards. My home was originally built in the 1930s. It has been added on over the years. We have both copper and aluminum wiring in my home. Because originally aluminum was used for electrical, then copper became the standard. 

If the powerlines ARE NOT on the same breaker, does the connection not work at all, or is it just constrained and slower?

[Donut417]

34 minutes ago, Aurosis said:

If the powerlines ARE NOT on the same breaker, does the connection not work at all, or is it just constrained and slower?

It will most likely be slower and maybe inconsistent. 

[Caennanu]

On 2/28/2020 at 6:50 PM, Aurosis said:

If the powerlines ARE NOT on the same breaker, does the connection not work at all, or is it just constrained and slower?

sorry, i haven't been behind the computer this weekend

They are likely to work, i've seen scenario's where they couple with the neighbors who are on another network and somehow it connects thru the main power line.

so yeah, its best to keep it on the same breaker. Simplest way to test is just to cut the power of the breaker and see what turns off really.

 

but as donut said, the link connection speed is likely slower and inconsistent.

[Aurosis]

On 3/2/2020 at 8:03 AM, Caennanu said:

sorry, i haven't been behind the computer this weekend

They are likely to work, i've seen scenario's where they couple with the neighbors who are on another network and somehow it connects thru the main power line.

so yeah, its best to keep it on the same breaker. Simplest way to test is just to cut the power of the breaker and see what turns off really.

 

but as donut said, the link connection speed is likely slower and inconsistent.

I plugged in two lamps (one in the living room) and (one in my room). I turned off 1 circuit, and the lamp in the living room was still on and the lamp in my room turned off. 

 

No Powerline for me.

 

When comparing 1Gbits Internet and 600Mbits Internet... Does having 1Gbit Internet give me better ping than 600Mbits or has that nothing to do with ping?

[Caennanu]

1 hour ago, Aurosis said:

I plugged in two lamps (one in the living room) and (one in my room). I turned off 1 circuit, and the lamp in the living room was still on and the lamp in my room turned off. 

 

No Powerline for me.

 

When comparing 1Gbits Internet and 600Mbits Internet... Does having 1Gbit Internet give me better ping than 600Mbits or has that nothing to do with ping?

Oef, thats a tough one, but generally no. ping is not speed related.

Ping is more related to the hardware it passes and what protocol is being used.

Ping is a representation of response time.

 

For example, UDP generally always has a lower 'ping' because it doesn't do error correction like TCP / IP does. UDP is most used in situations where it is not as critical to get every bit of information. An example of UDP is live TV. You will sometimes get artifacts because it will just discard or display the packages as they are being received (they are the digital version of white noise).

Youtube and Netflix are more like TCP/IP, where you download more into a buffer so you can do error correction and have a 'flawless' stream.

 

If you have high ping, it generally means one of the components on your route is too busy to relay the message in a timely fashion. This can mean its your pc, because you are encoding video's meanwhile or the game you're playing is bottlenecking your system. But it could also mean that because your neighbors are each downloading their full bandwidth that your share ISP network card (not to be confused with a switch like you have at home) is needing all its resources to handle the data being transferred.

 

This is not all of the story, but i think this is enough information to help you further.

 

Also, don't write off the powerline yet. It may still work, its just more likely you will run into issues. (especially if you are in an apartment complex)

[Aurosis]

17 minutes ago, Caennanu said:

Oef, thats a tough one, but generally no. ping is not speed related.

Ping is more related to the hardware it passes and what protocol is being used.

Ping is a representation of response time.

 

For example, UDP generally always has a lower 'ping' because it doesn't do error correction like TCP / IP does. UDP is most used in situations where it is not as critical to get every bit of information. An example of UDP is live TV. You will sometimes get artifacts because it will just discard or display the packages as they are being received (they are the digital version of white noise).

Youtube and Netflix are more like TCP/IP, where you download more into a buffer so you can do error correction and have a 'flawless' stream.

 

If you have high ping, it generally means one of the components on your route is too busy to relay the message in a timely fashion. This can mean its your pc, because you are encoding video's meanwhile or the game you're playing is bottlenecking your system. But it could also mean that because your neighbors are each downloading their full bandwidth that your share ISP network card (not to be confused with a switch like you have at home) is needing all its resources to handle the data being transferred.

 

This is not all of the story, but i think this is enough information to help you further.

 

Also, don't write off the powerline yet. It may still work, its just more likely you will run into issues. (especially if you are in an apartment complex)

Let's say for the sake of argument i get on average a ping of 30, while using the router my ISP provided. Do you think gaming routers can reduce that 30 ping to maybe 15, or even less? Or are gaming routers a gimmick and just a marketing strategy? 
 

Let's take the Netgear Nighthawk XR700, do you think this router can reduce my ping (ms)? If so, do you think it can go from 30 to 0 ping? 

 

I know... very vague, and hard to answer question. Location for example also plays a role, but I think ISP Routers are kinda shitty.

[Caennanu]

14 minutes ago, Aurosis said:

Let's say for the sake of argument i get on average a ping of 30, while using the router my ISP provided. Do you think gaming routers can reduce that 30 ping to maybe 15, or even less? Or are gaming routers a gimmick and just a marketing strategy? 

to me, a gaming router just has more options to make it easier for gamers to configure things, or i think the phrase 'cookie cutter' would apply here. So its not so that it provides less than a regular router, it is generally just easier to set up. that is my experience anyhow. (for example, a dos command most old timers know what it is, but the younger generation thinks its simply a button that does stuff).

 

18 minutes ago, Aurosis said:

Let's take the Netgear Nighthawk XR700, do you think this router can reduce my ping (ms)? If so, do you think it can go from 30 to 0 ping? 

If the router can reduce your ping, i am not able to tell you. There are to many variables. And a ping of 0 is an utopia.

 

19 minutes ago, Aurosis said:

I know... very vague, and hard to answer question. Location for example also plays a role, but I think ISP Routers are kinda shitty

ISP routers are not shitty, they just offer you less features than an off the shelve product will, because this will cut in support cost for the service provider. The less the customer can F up, the less calls they will get and the more stable the customer will experience their connection. If there is a product similar to the router / modem provided by the ISP, you could technically load an off the shelve firmware to enable the features you're looking for and maybe free up monitoring resources that would otherwise be used by the ISP. But this is purely speculative as i cannot base this on any facts.

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, Aurosis said:

of 30, while using the router my ISP provided. Do you think gaming routers can reduce that 30 ping to maybe 15, or even less? Or are gaming routers a gimmick and just a marketing strategy? 

Once the traffic reaches your ISP your no longer in control. The only way to reduce ping on your end is use Ethernet and even then there is no guarantee of how much. 

[Caennanu]

17 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Once the traffic reaches your ISP your no longer in control. The only way to reduce ping on your end is use Ethernet and even then there is no guarantee of how much. 

and to add to this, lower ping is better. but honestly, from how high a ping will you start noticing something isn't quite right? FPS around 50? MMO's 200 - 300?

Its subjective and i can't find a source.

[Donut417]

3 hours ago, Caennanu said:

and to add to this, lower ping is better. but honestly, from how high a ping will you start noticing something isn't quite right? FPS around 50? MMO's 200 - 300?

Its subjective and i can't find a source.

Yeah thats sounds about right. With Comcast I used to have around 50 at one time on top of the fact I was on wirleless as well, everything seemed to work, though back then every one had shitty internet. But Id say under 50ms is probably going to be OK for most games. 

[Aurosis]

7 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Yeah thats sounds about right. With Comcast I used to have around 50 at one time on top of the fact I was on wirleless as well, everything seemed to work, though back then every one had shitty internet. But Id say under 50ms is probably going to be OK for most games. 

This is my conclusion after endless research. This is what I am gonna do:

 

On the third floor = Modem connected to wall. Buy a second landline telephone and connect it with the modem.

 

One telephone on top and one in the living room. They both will be connected to each other with DECT, so if someone calls, both telephones will ring.

 

Then I'll use a 25 meter Cat 6, Cat 7, or Cat 8.1 cable (probably Cat 8.1 to feed my ego a little) from my modem to my setup.

 

Telephone: Check

Low Ping: Check

 

Now, however... my mom can't watch Netflix in the living room, and my sister can't feed her crippling YouTube addiction.

 

So... for that I'll buy a Netgear AX8 Mesh Extender, and put that up in the living room. It will use the same network-name as the modem, so your device won't have to switch networks, every time you go upstairs.

 

Telephone: Check

Low Ping: Check

Working TV and Internet in the living room: Check

 

"That's it. Wish me luck. Nothing can stop me now."

 

Donut417 and Caennanu:

"Hold my ethernet cable."

[Caennanu]

I think you're going a little bit overboard. But good luck!

[Aurosis]

1 hour ago, Caennanu said:

I think you're going a little bit overboard. But good luck!

Overboard in what way?

[Caennanu]

26 minutes ago, Aurosis said:

Overboard in what way?

If you're using 2 lines, with 2 modems. with only 1 floor in between. Why not enable Wifi on those modems? Do you really need that Wifi router?

Or did you simply mean that you are buying a 2nd DECT handset, instead of a landline, and i simply misunderstood?

 

If that is the case, and you're installing your modem on the third floor. And the initial entrance of the landline is at the ground floor (1st floor for americans?), you are still needing to run a cable from the ground floor to the third floor. If this is a RJ11 connection (phone wire with 4 wires in it) and you're using it for a DSL signal, you'll likely run into interference issues, cutting down your bandwidth drastically, if even comming into a sync state at all.

 

Recommendation on DSL signals, is to keep the initial line to the modem as short as possible. Or if you have the know how, use a Cat cable to transfer the phone signal. (its shielded MUCH better). But all in all, if this is what you're doing, you could just as easily replace the phone cable for a Cat cable and run it to your computer directly, or install a switch / router / wifi acces point (acces points generally have a passthrough) on the floor your pc is on.

[Aurosis]

On 3/5/2020 at 11:55 AM, Caennanu said:

If you're using 2 lines, with 2 modems. with only 1 floor in between. Why not enable Wifi on those modems? Do you really need that Wifi router?

Or did you simply mean that you are buying a 2nd DECT handset, instead of a landline, and i simply misunderstood?

 

If that is the case, and you're installing your modem on the third floor. And the initial entrance of the landline is at the ground floor (1st floor for americans?), you are still needing to run a cable from the ground floor to the third floor. If this is a RJ11 connection (phone wire with 4 wires in it) and you're using it for a DSL signal, you'll likely run into interference issues, cutting down your bandwidth drastically, if even comming into a sync state at all.

 

Recommendation on DSL signals, is to keep the initial line to the modem as short as possible. Or if you have the know how, use a Cat cable to transfer the phone signal. (its shielded MUCH better). But all in all, if this is what you're doing, you could just as easily replace the phone cable for a Cat cable and run it to your computer directly, or install a switch / router / wifi acces point (acces points generally have a passthrough) on the floor your pc is on.

Telephone Nr. 1 is connected to the modem. It receives data and works.

 

Telephone Nr. 2 is the exact same model from Panasonic. 

 

According to Panasonic: You connect the telephone that's connected to the modem with the second telephone which is only powered by a power cable.

 

You connect them with DECT, radio, wireless, bluetooth, whatever you wanna call it. You merge them into one. You know?

 

Panasonic said it should work.

[Aurosis]

On 3/5/2020 at 11:55 AM, Caennanu said:

If you're using 2 lines, with 2 modems. with only 1 floor in between. Why not enable Wifi on those modems? Do you really need that Wifi router?

Or did you simply mean that you are buying a 2nd DECT handset, instead of a landline, and i simply misunderstood?

 

If that is the case, and you're installing your modem on the third floor. And the initial entrance of the landline is at the ground floor (1st floor for americans?), you are still needing to run a cable from the ground floor to the third floor. If this is a RJ11 connection (phone wire with 4 wires in it) and you're using it for a DSL signal, you'll likely run into interference issues, cutting down your bandwidth drastically, if even comming into a sync state at all.

 

Recommendation on DSL signals, is to keep the initial line to the modem as short as possible. Or if you have the know how, use a Cat cable to transfer the phone signal. (its shielded MUCH better). But all in all, if this is what you're doing, you could just as easily replace the phone cable for a Cat cable and run it to your computer directly, or install a switch / router / wifi acces point (acces points generally have a passthrough) on the floor your pc is on.

My last thing I need to do is to look for the right antenna cable. 
 

See the image? Left is a plug in the middle, on the right there is a hole in the middle.

 

My Modem has a F-Plug...

 

So... Modem —> F-Plug —> Wall —> now into the left side or into the right side? 
 

Do they work the same, or are there differences between the two?

[beersykins]

When I had roomates we snaked a cable through the house lol.  You can string it over door frames and under the door gap at the bottom but it's honestly an eyesore.

 

I'd totally run some cabling within the walls between points.  Kind of a PITA but then you'll have direct wired connectivity.

 

A lot of people also run one on the exterior of the house.  If you tuck it under edges and stuff it can look neat but those are the primary options I think.

 

Powerline introduces latency and isn't that fast, wlan repeaters are garbage.  Wifi is hard in that situation since the elevation plane is limited on most wifi antennas.