Virtual Machines; service to possibly make cheap VMs

[Phas3L0ck]

I don't know about everyone else, but I had this absurd idea to make custom virtual machines as a (cheap) paid service!

Of course I expect to hear lots of "WTF no way" and "so not gonna happen..." remarks, and even I think that "selling" custom VMs as a service is nonsense, but I wanted to know if anyone would care to begin with...

 

General things:

Hypothetically, this is how I'd do it...

$10-150 for a VM build

Windows or Linux (any version)

VMware Workstation/vSphere (.vmdk) environment

 

To answer the obvious question of "why?," the intention is to save time and/or simplify the life/experience of the end user and get them up and running with a great Vbox pre-packed.  I know, I know, I know, it's stupid, you don't have to say it, I know you're all thinking it... just don't remind me okay?..

[Eigenvektor]

Too bad Amazon (AWS), Microsoft (Azure), etc. beat you to the punch a long time ago. Think you can offer a better, more reliable service that is cheaper than either of those two?

 

There's also docker (and docker hub), which offers ready-to-run docker images for a ton of services you might need. Need a MariaDB database? Download the docker image, start a docker container with said image, and you're done (ok, you still need to configure some things like passwords etc.).

[SupaKomputa]

That would be VPS (Virtual Private Server) you can get that as cheap as $3 a month for 1 core.

[Sauron]

Sooo you basically reinvented cloud hosting, except with no money to build the required infrastructure and 15 years late.

[Phas3L0ck]

20 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Sooo you basically reinvented cloud hosting, except with no money to build the required infrastructure and 15 years late.

Give me a break, I had a thought and wondered if I should try it, that's all.

 

But tell me this... What about recovering lost or forgotten OS history?

For example, perhaps I could sell a disc with an image of a fully complete (updated) Windows XP VM on it?  Sure we all know about internet distribution and downloads, but this is the kind of thing you'd have archived in the first place, like all those install discs we know so well; think of it as a reference image-- things you download can be modified and injected with malware and crap, whereas a reference image, verified as clean (somehow) and then finalized into a permanent package that won't change has the advantage of better reliability and offering peace of mind of a clean, functioning system, ready to use!

[TechyBen]

Not possible with the Windows license (selling recovery disks). But you could do a travelling salesman/serviceman and offer "PC backups", selling backup software and external HDDs/SSDs.

 

You could sell "live disks" of Linux. People already do this on disk and USB. So no idea how you would undercut/increase service/outcompete those.

[Eigenvektor]

2 minutes ago, Phas3L0ck said:

For example, perhaps I could sell a disc with an image of a fully complete (updated) Windows XP VM on it?

Microsoft's lawyers want a word with you Unless you have some kind of license agreement with Microsoft, not going to happen. Plus, the big issue here is that at some point your (virtual) hardware is too modern for XP to run on.

4 minutes ago, Phas3L0ck said:

things you download can be modified and injected with malware and crap, whereas a reference image, verified as clean (somehow) and then finalized into a permanent package

That "somehow" is the whole crux of the question. Unless you can verifiably prove that your image is clean, its just another dubious download on the internet.

[Phas3L0ck]

1 hour ago, Eigenvektor said:

Microsoft's lawyers want a word with you Unless you have some kind of license agreement with Microsoft, not going to happen. Plus, the big issue here is that at some point your (virtual) hardware is too modern for XP to run on.

That "somehow" is the whole crux of the question. Unless you can verifiably prove that your image is clean, its just another dubious download on the internet.

"Plus, the big issue here is that at some point your (virtual) hardware is too modern for XP to run on." Seriously? That's even a concern??? Duh, XP x64! Besides, the point is the eXperience!!!

1 hour ago, TechyBen said:

Not possible with the Windows license (selling recovery disks). But you could do a travelling salesman/serviceman and offer "PC backups", selling backup software and external HDDs/SSDs.

 

You could sell "live disks" of Linux. People already do this on disk and USB. So no idea how you would undercut/increase service/outcompete those.

Literally, there's no logical problem with selling recovery media, just a bunch of BS paper "rules" no one cares about. PC backups? Come on! Even you could do better than that.

 

And to both of you; who gives a flaming hot DAMN about licensing for Windows XP in 2019/2020???

Any 5-year old could run/install XP using a serial key from any number of forums, and it just works.

 **Stupid bunch of bureaucrats, no one cares about your little "agreement" anymore. People are made of paper, and your pathetic false belief that documents have any real bearing in digital things is nothing but sand through a sieve.**

 

 

And to the moderators; don't you DARE get the lame idea that I'm in any way "pushing piracy" 'cause I'm not. This is a statement of what's actually happening, not a call-to-action or promotion.

[Sauron]

3 hours ago, Phas3L0ck said:

For example, perhaps I could sell a disc with an image of a fully complete (updated) Windows XP VM on it?

Aside from the fact that distributing copies of Windows without a proper license is illegal in a lot of places and that you'd be using the same key for too many installations, XP hasn't been supported for years and you'd be responsible for the inevitable problems whoever buys it would run into.

 

Also, XP is literally still available for download, for free, from Microsoft.

3 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

the big issue here is that at some point your (virtual) hardware is too modern for XP to run on.

Stuff like qemu could solve that since it can also emulate the cpu.

3 hours ago, TechyBen said:

You could sell "live disks" of Linux. People already do this on disk and USB. So no idea how you would undercut/increase service/outcompete those.

This is a better idea, it's legal, it doesn't cost much to try and all it takes to sell a few is to be the only person that does it in your local area. Better yet, OP could offer to help the customer through the install process for a small extra fee.

[Eigenvektor]

2 hours ago, Phas3L0ck said:

Literally, there's no logical problem with selling recovery media, just a bunch of BS paper "rules" no one cares about. PC backups? Come on! Even you could do better than that.

It's a legal issue, not a logical one, true. You may not care about it, most consumers may not care about it, but Microsoft does. And if I'm paying someone to set up an OS for me, I sure as heck don't want there to be any potential legal issues.

 

But then again, if no one gives a damn about Windows XP licenses... who really gives a damn about paying someone to set up XP for them in 2019? Consumers will just pirate it themselves and companies who very much care about stuff being legal won't touch it.

53 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Stuff like qemu could solve that since it can also emulate the cpu.

Assuming it's still x86, the CPU should not be too much of a problem. I'm more thinking about other things you might no longer have drivers for. Of course you can emulate whatever you want, the question is how long someone is willing to maintain that code. Is it worth their time to stay compatible to a 20+ years old OS?

 

The other thing is, customers don't really care about the OS. It's a necessity, not a solution. They care about their software and/or services. So what you really want to do is offer a way for them to run the software they need. Which is something that AWS, Azure and Docker etc. already do.

 

For example, if I need a database, on AWS I can set up a Windows Datacenter Edition including Microsoft SQL Server in a couple of clicks. Without any licensing issues, because Amazon has the proper contracts in place. Or I could just run a Docker instance for MariaDB, MySQL, MSSQL or Oracle in a couple of minutes.

 

If you want to make money, support less tech savvy companies to get that stuff up and running. There's more than enough who need IT but don't have the expertise and/or are unwilling to employ someone full time.

[Sauron]

23 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

the question is how long someone is willing to maintain that code. Is it worth their time to stay compatible to a 20+ years old OS?

You'd be surprised, there are actively maintained emulators for much older things.

25 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

The other thing is, customers don't really care about the OS. It's a necessity, not a solution. They care about their software and/or services. So what you really want to do is offer a way for them to run the software they need. Which is something that AWS, Azure and Docker etc. already do.

Depends on the software.

[Kilrah]

3 hours ago, Phas3L0ck said:

Literally, there's no logical problem with selling recovery media, just a bunch of BS paper "rules" no one cares about.

Literally there's been a court case about exactly that last year and the guy is in prison...

 

3 hours ago, Phas3L0ck said:

Any 5-year old could run/install XP using a serial key from any number of forums, and it just works.

The legal types make a very big distinction about distributing the stuff on the web for free and actually selling it for profit.

[Eigenvektor]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

You'd be surprised, there are actively maintained emulators for much older things.

Oh, I very much believe it. Imho that requires one of two things: Someone who is passionate about it (e.g. old games) or financial incentive (e.g. software for expensive equipment that isn't updated for some reason).

 

I guess as long as you have either of those, XP is going to survive. Unless Wine turns out to be an easier alternative to running things

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Depends on the software.

I'm not sure I follow you. My argument is that people don't really care about the OS as such. They care about their game/application/whatever. They only "care" about the OS, if their software only runs on that particular OS. If they can get their software to run in other ways, they'll do it. I'm also thinking more about professional users. Obviously you have die hard fans who won't give up on "their" OS ever.

[Sauron]

21 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

I'm not sure I follow you. My argument is that people don't really care about the OS as such. They care about their game/application/whatever. They only "care" about the OS, if their software only runs on that particular OS. If they can get their software to run in other ways, they'll do it. I'm also thinking more about professional users. Obviously you have die hard fans who won't give up on "their" OS ever.

Well sure, but some software ONLY RUNS on XP (or only on 2000, or NT, or 98, whatever) and it may cost too much in training and migration to move to a newer option that runs on AWS or what have you. You can't really switch to docker for things that use proprietary XP functionality, you wouldn't even know where to begin. This is one of the core problems with proprietary software, by the way: if the company that made and supports your software goes under or just decides to stop doing that, you're stuck.

6 hours ago, Phas3L0ck said:

Literally, there's no logical problem with selling recovery media, just a bunch of BS paper "rules" no one cares about. PC backups? Come on! Even you could do better than that.

While copyright and proprietary software should both die a fiery death, right now it's illegal to do what you propose in most western countries and it can and will get both you and your customers in trouble. The kind of trouble that could land you in jail. Personal piracy generally runs under the radar, but selling it? You're asking for whatever comes to you at that point.

 

Also I personally have moral problems with it - you'd have done almost no work and would be making money off of someone's product, with no direct competition because what you'd be doing is illegal. Retailers and technology consultants follow the law and pay taxes (...usually), it's a tad unfair for you to just ignore all that for easy money.

[Phas3L0ck]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Also I personally have moral problems with it - you'd have done almost no work and would be making money off of someone's product, with no direct competition because what you'd be doing is illegal. Retailers and technology consultants follow the law and pay taxes (...usually), it's a tad unfair for you to just ignore all that for easy money.

Again, 1st off, who cares?

And 2nd... in a country devoid of cash, WHAT CHOICE DO WE HAVE???

3rd, people will pay for the convenience, and to have something that works. Also, someone here hinted at the enthusiast aspect; there are rare versions that I myself would spend a few dollars to have a package of.  This isn't about profit-- I might not make more than $5-20 per person if I started something like this... no, you're paying for the effort, the physical distribution media, and the shipping (where applicable) and nothing more.  The software I'd toss around for free, just have a little scratch for the time I spent assembling the VPC so I have more ways to get it sent out.

[Blue4130]

2 hours ago, Phas3L0ck said:

Again, 1st off, who cares?

And 2nd... in a country devoid of cash, WHAT CHOICE DO WE HAVE???

3rd, people will pay for the convenience, and to have something that works. Also, someone here hinted at the enthusiast aspect; there are rare versions that I myself would spend a few dollars to have a package of.  This isn't about profit-- I might not make more than $5-20 per person if I started something like this... no, you're paying for the effort, the physical distribution media, and the shipping (where applicable) and nothing more.  The software I'd toss around for free, just have a little scratch for the time I spent assembling the VPC so I have more ways to get it sent out.

If the country is so devoid of cash, why would people pay for your outdated softwade instead of basic human needs like food or shelter? 

And to repeat what was said earlier, Microsoft just lasted year successfully went to court with an individual selling recovery cds. He now lives in a nice cement prison. 

[Phas3L0ck]

1 hour ago, Blue4130 said:

If the country is so devoid of cash, why would people pay for your outdated software instead of basic human needs like food or shelter? 

And to repeat what was said earlier, Microsoft just lasted year successfully went to court with an individual selling recovery cds. He now lives in a nice cement prison. 

I'll answer that question when you tell me why homeless peoples are spending what little they have on PHONES  and GAMES, rather than food or medication. I'll give you a free pass to bash me and my idea all you want, when you tell me why war vets living on the street are buying alcohol instead of seeking help to reach for the surface of this ever-growing quicksand pit that we call a society.

 

THIS IS THE STATE OF THE NATION.
 

Spoiler

 

And to think people freak out when a little old gu/\/ goes off in their "safe community/neighborhood," that one person's death is news, or how surprised everyone is when an event takes place *hint-hint* at a school...

----FURTHER RANTS REDACTED----

 

 

Blah blah prison/prism, jail/bail/fail, what a fairy tale, just another sale. They only cared because the BA$TARDS that profit BILLIONS of dollars a day didn't make the extra five cents from someone who can't pay their bills without resorting to such a thing! We all make petty fortunes but we can't afford a life.  He only went down because he got sloppy, and then got caught.

**To be clear, this is not to say that I ever will do anything like this-- there are countless logistical problems that prevent the sale of VM images from being a viable option already. Sure I could make something eventually, but for the time it takes just to get attention, it's not worth it.**

[AbsoluteFool]

To be completely honest. The idea of just paying for a pre made VM that fit the need you have and just call that "installation" a day is a great idea.

All the legal bs aside, yes we know. But how much time do you spend installing VMs now days? Sure i could spend a day and make VM's that are "white papers" but just downloading them and into production sounds easier to me.

 

As for the license thing. You can legally distribute the VM in some countries but the buyer will have to obtain a license to use it legally.

The idea is not stupit, finding the market i believe is the harder part.

[Phas3L0ck]

On 10/28/2019 at 12:27 AM, AbsoluteFool said:

As for the license thing. You can legally distribute the VM in some countries but the buyer will have to obtain a license to use it legally.

The idea is not stupid, finding the market i believe is the harder part.

FINALLY, someone with a valid comment that contributes something!!!

That actually makes perfect sense.  In a way, it wouldn't be so bad if I sold VM packages with software in "trial mode," and people could use existing methods to activate it themselves upon retrieval-- then they could privately repack it as their own version of what I provided, so that I have nothing to do with the more serious stuff... kinda like what people do to get "ghost guns;" they buy legally sellable, non-functional unfinished parts, put their own time and labor into assembly, and now they've got whatever they want, and the seller of parts is in no way responsible for whatever happens next.

 

As for marketing, finding an audience for anything has always been a problem for me, but historically I always manage to get at least 1 person interested before the mods shut me down.

 

I'll send further details and answer your other questions via PM.

[Phas3L0ck]

Any other comments or potential interests? Anyone?

[tech.guru]

its a bad idea the reason you take time to customize a virtual machine is because you are optimizing it for your environment.

 

Not to sound rude, but I wouldnt trust a third party to provide virtual machines for any business I am employed in.

 

what happens if an infection gets inside your build process?

how do i know you havnt installed hidden malware or rootkits?

 

this is outside the legal implications. also it takes what two minutes to build a vm using an offical iso and run vmware os optimizer why do I need you?

i dont see any value in this at all

 

[bmichaels556]

20 hours ago, tech.guru said:

its a bad idea the reason you take time to customize a virtual machine is because you are optimizing it for your environment.

 

Not to sound rude, but I wouldnt trust a third party to provide virtual machines for any business I am employed in.

 

what happens if an infection gets inside your build process?

how do i know you havnt installed hidden malware or rootkits?

 

this is outside the legal implications. also it takes what two minutes to build a vm using an offical iso and run vmware os optimizer why do I need you?

i dont see any value in this at all

 

That's fair, but I mean how would you know the same hadn't happened on Azure or AWS? It's a safe bet it won't, but not guaranteed I would think. I dunno, it would depend on the person. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't see why a small service with say, a $1,000+ starting investment for a few cheap Sandy Bridge blade servers wouldn't work and be able to grow (starting as a side hustle). It'd be tough sure, but possible for sure. 

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily know why anyone rents VPS's in general. I wouldn't understand the major reason for it. For development alone (which I think is what many use them for?) I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get things up and running on any run of the mill cheap desktop. If you really needed virtualization support for more cores and so on, I'm sure an old Xeon rig (like mine for $250 out the door) wouldn't fit the bill for that use case. So I'm uneducated on the whole thing personally, but I wouldn't say his plan is impossible either.

[Phas3L0ck]

23 hours ago, tech.guru said:

its a bad idea the reason you take time to customize a virtual machine is because you are optimizing it for your environment.

 

Not to sound rude, but I wouldnt trust a third party to provide virtual machines for any business I am employed in.

 

what happens if an infection gets inside your build process?

how do i know you havnt installed hidden malware or rootkits?

 

this is outside the legal implications. also it takes what two minutes to build a vm using an offical iso and run vmware os optimizer why do I need you?

i dont see any value in this at all

 

NO! I'm not "optimizing it for my environment," I'm prepping base installs for use in almost any case.

 

That doesn't surprise me. Businesses don't "trust" anyone, not even themselves or their own people most of the time; they expect everything to just happen as windfall!  Pitiful bulbous babies with big banks, B1T(HING about some bu11$h1t "license" or "authorize" crap, to the tune of "ba, ba, bap," and "pap, fap, TRAP!"

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I specify earlier that I use top-notch AV/NS software? (probably forgot, so here I shall tell...) All of my finished VMs will be scanned by the newest version of Symantec Endpoint Protection 14.  Some VM builds (only custom ones) may include this software.

 

Blah blah blah paperwork :/

ACTUALLY, it takes a lot longer to build a working VM PROPERLY! It takes hours or days to fully install and configure the entire OS in a VM, and that's only the base install.  You couldn't get a basic "modern" VM running in 2 minutes or less if you had an NVMe cluster overclocked on digital crack!

Puh-leez... an "OS optimizer" can't do jack, as I do all the real work, all the best work, work of quality, BY HAND!

You can't make a script or write an "automation" thing to pick out so much as a fraction of the details I do when building a VM.

 

And to that last line, clearly you've never needed to re-image multiple systems with all the usual programs and have it up in a matter of minutes with all the fixes, or image a couple of systems several times to solve a problem!

Not only do my VMs solve that by providing a base platform that can be V2P (NOT P2V) to get live systems going smoothly relatively quick, but VMs that are carefully built can be excellent testing and diagnostic platforms, or even SHARED SYSTEMS!  *******GREAT WAY TO KEEP NASTY PEOPLE FROM SCREWING WITH YOUR STUFF WHEN YOU HAVE THE ONLY PC AROUND!!!*******   ((Excuse the excessive caps lock, italicize doesn't seem to put enough emphasis on words anymore))

3 hours ago, bmichaels556 said:

That's fair, but I mean how would you know the same hadn't happened on Azure or AWS? It's a safe bet it won't, but not guaranteed I would think. I dunno, it would depend on the person. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't see why a small service with say, a $1,000+ starting investment for a few cheap Sandy Bridge blade servers wouldn't work and be able to grow (starting as a side hustle). It'd be tough sure, but possible for sure. 

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily know why anyone rents VPS's in general. I wouldn't understand the major reason for it. For development alone (which I think is what many use them for?) I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get things up and running on any run of the mill cheap desktop. If you really needed virtualization support for more cores and so on, I'm sure an old Xeon rig (like mine for $250 out the door) wouldn't fit the bill for that use case. So I'm uneducated on the whole thing personally, but I wouldn't say his plan is impossible either.

I like your comment, but really? Sandy Bridge? What is this-- 2013?  I'm pushing Broadwell just because it's modern.

 

Why rent VPS, you ask? Resources, and reliability, of course.  The concept itself dates back to the late 70's-mid-80's when IBM mainframes were capable of using what's called a "time-sharing option" which allowed outside companies and users to borrow compute and storage resources for their own operations, and even hosting early websites.

 

And to the next line " I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get things up and running on any run of the mill cheap desktop."   and subtract all the text after that, you get... DUH!  That's kind of why I made this post-- to provide preset software setups to power an existing hardware terminal!  And hell, I myself even used this method to fix and restore several laptops, not just desktops!  P2V is only for experiments, backups, and diagnostics... The real winner is V2P, imaging a VM onto an outside machine.  But I think you've begun to partially see hope for my idea at least, so meh...

[Kilrah]

1 hour ago, Phas3L0ck said:

ACTUALLY, it takes a lot longer to build a working VM PROPERLY! It takes hours or days to fully install and configure the entire OS in a VM, and that's only the base install.  You couldn't get a basic "modern" VM running in 2 minutes or less if you had an NVMe cluster overclocked on digital crack!

10 mins to install the OS here. Rest is 30 mins to an hour of setting/customizing things how I want/need them, so I don't see where your service would help given that it would take me longer to write the spec for what I'd want you to do than to do it myself.

 

If it takes hours or days as you say, how come you could do it for $150? Something doesn't check out.

[Phas3L0ck]

52 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

10 mins to install the OS here. Rest is 30 mins to an hour of setting/customizing things how I want/need them, so I don't see where your service would help given that it would take me longer to write the spec for what I'd want you to do than to do it myself.

 

If it takes hours or days as you say, how come you could do it for $150? Something doesn't check out.

First of all, again, NO! It takes time to do everything, INCLUDING UPDATES!  Not to mention installing software, adjusting settings, clearing junk files, defragmentation, miscellaneous customizations, and final testing to make sure it all works.

 

Did you even read the head note? "$10-150," as in $150 is the maximum, and it would only be that high if the VM required major attention to software modification and/or serious installations! Average would be like $15-20 for a base system.  And also again, this is hypothetical, and I've already made it clear further up that getting attention is hard enough as it is, so selling VMs would be a waste of time...  THEREFORE, I'm currently maintaining the VM assemblies I have and put them in the wild somewhere for anyone who wants it, adding the possibility that I can make a custom variant for anyone who asks, to help solve a specific problem or fill a requirement they have!

 

WHY is this so difficult for everyone?

Am I the only one who thinks with such boundless concepts?  Or is every real techie too busy munching on C0P3Nhagen?  Maybe it's like Elliott Alderson; if he's not writing an exploit, or breaking into something, he's smoking dope.