Speakers - Stereo Vs. Surround 5.1/7.1

[Oddvar Ashborn]

Hello there folks,

 

let me start off by saying that no, i cannot use headsets cause they hurt my neck for some reason.

So that leaves me with... speakers.

I've been playing with 5.1 systems for like 15 years, but now that i have to buy new speakers, i thought "hey let me see what the internet has to say". What a bad idea that was.

Most of the people i've read say that 5.1 gives you advantage only when in a headset, and that there's virtually no difference between stereo and surround speakers (in a gaming context).

Now, i've pretty much always been able to track the correct source/direction of a sound in-game with a 5.1, and since stereo speakers would definetly give me an overall better quality sound, i'm considering it, even though i'm afraid i might loose the ability to track sound's sources/directions.

 

Any advice?

Thanks guys

[Derkoli]

9 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

Hello there folks,

 

let me start off by saying that no, i cannot use headsets cause they hurt my neck for some reason.

So that leaves me with... speakers.

I've been playing with 5.1 systems for like 15 years, but now that i have to buy new speakers, i thought "hey let me see what the internet has to say". What a bad idea that was.

Most of the people i've read say that 5.1 gives you advantage only when in a headset, and that there's virtually no difference between stereo and surround speakers (in a gaming context).

Now, i've pretty much always been able to track the correct source/direction of a sound in-game with a 5.1, and since stereo speakers would definetly give me an overall better quality sound, i'm considering it, even though i'm afraid i might loose the ability to track sound's sources/directions.

 

Any advice?

Thanks guys

If you have a decently large budget, i would go for 5.1 IF you can place the speaker's properly, if not a decent set of passive 2.0 speakers/powered monitor's would be best.

[nick name]

In my dorm I had my Klipsch 4.1 speakers setup around me to play CS 1.6 and would constantly get called a cheater because I had directional sound.  If it's implemented in game correctly and setup correctly with the speakers then I can't see why people would say 5.1 would only work in a headset.  

[Oddvar Ashborn]

1 minute ago, Derkoli said:

If you have a decently large budget, i would go for 5.1 IF you can place the speaker's properly, if not a decent set of passive 2.0 speakers/powered monitor's would be best.

Can't put the rear speakers behind me... still viable in your opinion?

[Oddvar Ashborn]

5 minutes ago, nick name said:

In my dorm I had my Klipsch 4.1 speakers setup around me to play CS 1.6 and would constantly get called a cheater because I had directional sound.  If it's implemented in game correctly and setup correctly with the speakers then I can't see why people would say 5.1 would only work in a headset.  

CS might be an isolated case

[Derkoli]

Just now, Oddvar Ashborn said:

Can't put the rear speakers behind me... still viable in your opinion?

Go for a set of decent stereo speaker's then, What's your budget?

[Oddvar Ashborn]

4 minutes ago, Derkoli said:

Go for a set of decent stereo speaker's then, What's your budget?

Ideally around 100€ (i'm from Italy), no more than 150€... unless some miracle happens.

[Turtle Rig]

27 minutes ago, nick name said:

In my dorm I had my Klipsch 4.1 speakers setup around me to play CS 1.6 and would constantly get called a cheater because I had directional sound.  If it's implemented in game correctly and setup correctly with the speakers then I can't see why people would say 5.1 would only work in a headset.  

Your right you don't.  Game audio is well optimized.  When I game I hear where the character is behind me or up on the side or front etc..  Also if you have decent ears you can tell the directional just fine with speaker system.  Just grab a 7.1 USB headset but tell us what you want so we can give you the go ahead to get it.  There are a ton.  Razer makes them Corsair HyperX .. Just look around a bit for 7.1 usb headset and let us know your decision and what not.

[WWicket]

At that budget you are much better off getting better stereo speakers vs worse surrounds. 

Stereo speakers can give good directional imaging in the sweet spot. Surrounds are only really needed when you are trying to provide correct imaging to multiple listeners (eg., theaters). 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

12 minutes ago, WWicket said:

At that budget you are much better off getting better stereo speakers vs worse surrounds. 

Stereo speakers can give good directional imaging in the sweet spot. Surrounds are only really needed when you are trying to provide correct imaging to multiple listeners (eg., theaters). 

You don't think i'd loose the ability to track sound sources properly?

[WWicket]

5 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

You don't think i'd loose the ability to track sound sources properly?

No. If you have well-separated stereo channels, you can determine position just fine. 

Try listening to this with a decent pair of stereo headphones to see what I mean: 

Stereo speakers aren't going to achieve as good of a binaural effect as headphones do, but they can do a pretty decent job. Just make sure to put them far enough apart from each other and evenly spaced. 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

10 minutes ago, WWicket said:

No. If you have well-separated stereo channels, you can determine position just fine. 

Try listening to this with a decent pair of stereo headphones to see what I mean: 

Stereo speakers aren't going to achieve as good of a binaural effect as headphones do, but they can do a pretty decent job. Just make sure to put them far enough apart from each other and evenly spaced. 

Well pardon my french but holy fucking shit! I'm truly impressed! Now, just a little confirmation so i know i'm not allucinating or suffering from placebo effect: the clip where he opens the bottle of water, is mostly heard from the sides and the back, and the one after that (the brown paper bag) starts on the front. Can you confirm that?

[WWicket]

In front or behind are tricky when your 'listening point' is stationary. They become a lot clearer in games when they are combined with visual indicators and changing volume relative to your position/ other sounds/ camera angle. Eg., if footsteps are quiet facing forward, and louder and too the left when facing left, it is obviously coming from behind your initial facing. Your brain keeps track of the position (subconsciously) and makes better sense of the spatial audio cues than you can with an audio-only demo like that clip. Hopefully that makes sense.

Bottle starts to the right and behind, then he walks to the left and sets the bottle opener down to the left and behind for me.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

22 minutes ago, WWicket said:

In front or behind are tricky when your 'listening point' is stationary. They become a lot clearer in games when they are combined with visual indicators and changing volume relative to your position/ other sounds/ camera angle. Eg., if footsteps are quiet facing forward, and louder and too the left when facing left, it is obviously coming from behind your initial facing. Your brain keeps track of the position (subconsciously) and makes better sense of the spatial audio cues than you can with an audio-only demo like that clip. Hopefully that makes sense.

Bottle starts to the right and behind, then he walks to the left and sets the bottle opener down to the left and behind for me.

And what about the paper bag after it? Is it in the front at pretty much the beginning of it?

P.S. It was the same for me with the bottle. Just sides and behind, no front.

[WWicket]

18 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

And what about the paper bag after it? Is it in the front at pretty much the beginning of it?

P.S. It was the same for me with the bottle. Just sides and behind, no front.

For me, it sounds like he comes from behind, holds the  bag directly over my head, or maybe over and slightly to the front, and then lowers the bag over my head...

but again, behind or in front are largely illusionary without a starting frame of reference or any counterpoints. 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

5 minutes ago, WWicket said:

For me, it sounds like he comes from behind, holds the  bag directly over my head, or maybe over and slightly to the front, and then lowers the bag over my head...

but again, behind or in front are largely illusionary without a starting frame of reference or any counterpoints. 

Well your descriptions are extremely close (if not identical) to my own, so that mean... it works.

I mean yeah i was using a couple of stereo earphones, but the same principle should apply to stereo speakers as well, right?

[WWicket]

1 hour ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

Well your descriptions are extremely close (if not identical) to my own, so that mean... it works.

I mean yeah i was using a couple of stereo earphones, but the same principle should apply to stereo speakers as well, right?

That's the idea. It is basically impossible to get the effect as perfect with stereo speakers as headphones, between difficulty isolating the left from right and issues with reflections etc., but you can definitely get more detailed and accurate spatial-acoustic imaging than people expect out of stereo speakers. 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

13 minutes ago, WWicket said:

That's the idea. It is basically impossible to get the effect as perfect with stereo speakers as headphones, between difficulty isolating the left from right and issues with reflections etc., but you can definitely get more detailed and accurate spatial-acoustic imaging than people expect out of stereo speakers. 

You're right, i didn't expect that much, and i hope to get the same feeling in case i decide to go for stereo.

You're really selling me on this one xD

[an actual squirrel]

I think that's misleading. In theory, with the right processing, you can get things to sound like that video on stereo speakers, but practically speaking, people don't do it. It would be like if I showed you a video of a guy using LN2 cooling and pretended like that was practical for everyday use. 

 

I have no idea if anyone even attempts things like that with speakers outside of virtual 5.1 sound bars and console gaming.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

5 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

I think that's misleading. In theory, with the right processing, you can get things to sound like that video on stereo speakers, but practically speaking, people don't do it. It would be like if I showed you a video of a guy using LN2 cooling and pretended like that was practical for everyday use. 

 

I have no idea if anyone even attempts things like that with speakers outside of virtual 5.1 sound bars and console gaming.

So what you're saying is that with a stereo I won't have the same tracking capabilities as with a surround?

Also, what do you mean "with the right processing"?

[an actual squirrel]

4 hours ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

So what you're saying is that with a stereo I won't have the same tracking capabilities as with a surround?

Also, what do you mean "with the right processing"?

Yea, you won't have the same tracking capabilities.

 

If you are working with binaural audio for headphones, you would need crosstalk cancellation processing to make the speakers sound like headphones. If you are working with a surround sound source, you would need some type of virtual surround sound processing that is meant for speakers. In either case, it would still be better to use a surround sound source with actual surround sound speakers, since that works with your natural hearing.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

1 hour ago, an actual squirrel said:

Yea, you won't have the same tracking capabilities.

 

If you are working with binaural audio for headphones, you would need crosstalk cancellation processing to make the speakers sound like headphones. If you are working with a surround sound source, you would need some type of virtual surround sound processing that is meant for speakers. In either case, it would still be better to use a surround sound source with actual surround sound speakers, since that works with your natural hearing.

You think that's still the case considering my rear speakers were always in front of me (far right and far left) but never behind me? I would still feel a solid difference?

[an actual squirrel]

17 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

You think that's still the case considering my rear speakers were always in front of me (far right and far left) but never behind me? I would still feel a solid difference?

No, you need to have them placed properly to have the benefits.

[Enola_one]

You can try IEM's and a loose mic. Some people tend to get neck pain when the headband of a headphone/headset is pushing on top of their head/crown.

 

I prefer stereo instead of the surround. Good stereo is should be good enough. Surround feels to artificial and mostly out of sync. 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

7 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

No, you need to have them placed properly to have the benefits.

So if i'm used to an improperly placed 5.1, would i notice much difference (always in terms of tracking) with a stereo?