Speakers - Stereo Vs. Surround 5.1/7.1

[WWicket]

1 hour ago, vogelspinnen said:

There's no denying that stereo can do a lot, but to say that it will beat a 5.1 in terms of spatial accuracy is just completely wrong.

I only said it will beat it with headphones (perfectly/near-perfectly isolated left and right channels). If you don't think headphones can provide better spatial accuracy than 5.1, you are just wrong.

 

1 hour ago, homeap5 said:

Is it your personal experience or just some theory?

My experience. 

 

I should've said "Decent stereo speakers, correctly positioned, in a reasonably treated space, and running a game with good stereo support, can track on par with a similarly priced 5.1 system while seated in the sweet spot."

 

Me rambling but hopefully you can make some sense of what I mean:

 

You can't replicate natural 3D sound as well with speakers as headphones because of difficulty isolating channels (eg, your left ear hears the right speaker). If you control for reflections, you can however get very convincing left-to-right imaging (nearly perfect phantom center in the sweet spot).  Within a fixed, modest budget, you can get a significantly better set of stereo speakers than 5.1 speakers (in terms of frequency response/ attack/ volume/ etc), which (I assume you agree, even if you think it is to a much lesser than extent than source position) do contribute to the accuracy of spatial imaging for 3d sound simulations.

Therefore it seems reasonable to expect a 5.1 system to have at least slightly worse left-to-right tracking than a similarly priced stereo system. Neither have 'real' height channels, so by the same token you could assume at least slightly better simulated vertical imaging by the stereo speakers. Since the 5.1 can pan front-to-back and the stereo setup can't, the 5.1 has significantly better imaging front-to-back. So you get slightly better imaging in two axes with stereo and much worse in one axis. But that axis is the one that your natural hearing is worst at distinguishing... people have difficulty telling when a sound is directly in front or behind them, if both they and the sound are at fixed positions and not turning. With stereo sound, if the simulated listener is rotating relative to the simulated sound source (like you are looking around in an fps), the location of the source can be determined based on volume shifts and left-right imaging.  Pretty much, the only time you are going to have significantly better spatial acoustic imaging with a 5.1  setup is if you are camping one spot in game and not looking around at all. [And if you are a dirty, camping sniper you deserve to get knifed in the back.]

[homeap5]

44 minutes ago, WWicket said:

I only said it will beat it with headphones (perfectly/near-perfectly isolated left and right channels). If you don't think headphones can provide better spatial accuracy than 5.1, you are just wrong.

 

My experience. 

 

I should've said "Decent stereo speakers, correctly positioned, in a reasonably treated space, and running a game with good stereo support, can track on par with a similarly priced 5.1 system while seated in the sweet spot."

 

Me rambling but hopefully you can make some sense of what I mean:

 

You can't replicate natural 3D sound as well with speakers because of difficulty isolating channels (eg, your left ear hears the right speaker). If you control for reflections, you can however get very convincing left-to-right imaging (nearly perfect phantom center in the sweet spot).  Within a fixed, modest budget, you can get a significantly better set of stereo speakers than 5.1 speakers (in terms of frequency response/ attack/ volume/ etc), which (I assume you agree, even if you think it is to a much lesser than extent than source position) do contribute to accuracy of spatial imaging for 3d sound simulations.

Therefore it seems reasonable to expect a 5.1 system to have at least slightly worse left-to-right tracking than a similarly priced stereo system. Neither have 'real' height channels, so by the same token you could assume at least slightly better simulated vertical imaging by the stereo speakers. Since the 5.1 can pan front to back and the stereo set up can't, the 5.1 has significantly better imaging front to back. So you get slightly better imaging in two axes with stereo and much worse in one axis. But that axis is the one that your natural hearing is worst at distinguishing... people have difficulty telling when a sound is directly in front or behind them, if both they and the sound are at fixed positions and not turning. With stereo sound, if the simulated listener is rotating relative to the simulated sound source (like you are looking around in an fps), the location of the source can be determined based on volume shifts and left-right imaging.  Pretty much, the only time you are going to have significantly better spatial acoustic imaging with a 5.1  setup is if you are camping one spot in game and not looking around at all. [And if you are a dirty, camping sniper you deserve to get knifed in the back.]

But spatial sound is all about front and back experience. That is obvious that positioning left and right is good in stereo. I have more than decent speakers (Dali Concept 6 for now and I planned to buy better ones) and still for positioning sound in games my cheap headphones are better. So I'm using headphones for games and stereo for music. No matter what good is sound, I never heard anything behind me, only in front using stereo speakers.

[WWicket]

2 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

I have more than decent speakers (Dali Concept 6 for now and I planned to buy better ones) and still for positioning sound in games my cheap headphones are better. So I'm using headphones for games and stereo for music.

I agree that headphones are better. I've said from the beginning that headphones are best.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

8 hours ago, vogelspinnen said:

Hmmm from what i have read about what you want, i take back my original suggestion. Go for the Z906. It is easy to setup, has an amp, 5.1 decoder built-in, and is easier to place than typical bookshelf speakers. You'll avoid all the extra effort and cost that comes with trying to upgrade from a 2.1 to a 5.1, and tbh the Logitechs sound great for gaming. It wouldn't satisfy audiophiles, but for gaming it's much better than the plastic speakers of yesteryears.

 

A 2.1 will not track like a 5.1 no matter what, its just physics. Also your setup sounds weird.  A single 3.5mm will only carry a stereo signal, so if that is the only cable from your pc to subwoofer, you're not utilising all the other speakers!

No no i've mentioned only one cable cause we were talking about addins the rears. Of course i hve 3 cable, front, rears and sub. (classica green, yellow and black)

By the way, what do you think the music experience would be with the Z906? Considering each speaker is 67W so, i think, not that bad.

7 hours ago, WWicket said:

Well implemented and isolated (eg., good headphones) stereo sound will beat out 5.1 all day for spatial accuracy. Decent stereo speakers, correctly positioned, in a reasonably treated space, and running a game with good stereo support, will track on par with a 5.1 system while seated in the sweet spot.

All those "ifs" looks scary to me, considering the level of experience i have in this matter.

[vogelspinnen]

19 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

No no i've mentioned only one cable cause we were talking about addins the rears. Of course i hve 3 cable, front, rears and sub. (classica green, yellow and black)

By the way, what do you think the music experience would be with the Z906? Considering each speaker is 67W so, i think, not that bad.

Well wattage is just how much power the speaker has, so it's hard to tell. And it's very hard for me to tell you if it would be good or not, because everyone has different tastes. High-end speakers made for listening tend to have better imaging, soundstage and clarity, but even among them there is difference in warmth, timbre, brightness etc. The best speaker might be a $2000 speaker to someone, and a $100 soundbar to another.

 

TheLogitechs have a sound signature which is generally enjoyable to most people. It is bassy and lively and will sound good and fun on pretty much all formats. Some higher end speakers will sound great on a lossless file, but sound absolutely crap when u put a low-quality mp3 on. My recommendation is to go to a local shop where you can have a listen to what you're buying so you can decide for yourself if that's the sound you want.

 

Soundis one thing that is very relative, while you might get a good idea of what it might sound like in reviews, nothing beats actually hearing it yourself.

 

Audiophiles will of course tell you the Logitechs are nowhere near their $2000 speaker, but from personal experience, my wife likes her little soundbox more than what i had painstaking setup

[Oddvar Ashborn]

3 minutes ago, vogelspinnen said:

Well wattage is just how much power the speaker has, so it's hard to tell. And it's very hard for me to tell you if it would be good or not, because everyone has different tastes. High-end speakers made for listening tend to have better imaging, soundstage and clarity, but even among them there is difference in warmth, timbre, brightness etc. The best speaker might be a $2000 speaker to someone, and a $100 soundbar to another.

 

TheLogitechs have a sound signature which is generally enjoyable to most people. It is bassy and lively and will sound good and fun on pretty much all formats. Some higher end speakers will sound great on a lossless file, but sound absolutely crap when u put a low-quality mp3 on. My recommendation is to go to a local shop where you can have a listen to what you're buying so you can decide for yourself if that's the sound you want.

 

Soundis one thing that is very relative, while you might get a good idea of what it might sound like in reviews, nothing beats actually hearing it yourself.

 

Audiophiles will of course tell you the Logitechs are nowhere near their $2000 speaker, but from personal experience, my wife likes her little soundbox more than what i had painstaking setup

Yeah well i have to say that most audiophiles told me to stay FAR away from Logitech like it was a disease

[vogelspinnen]

Just now, Oddvar Ashborn said:

Yeah well i have to say that most audiophiles told me to stay FAR away from Logitech like it was a disease

Yeah but don't listen to us, we just have a taste for something different, and it just sucks that the taste is expensive. The best speakers are not the most expensive, but the ones that sound best to YOUR ears. As long as you had done your homework and heard different speakers, go for what sounds best to yourself. As long as you're enjoying it, you've won!

[Oddvar Ashborn]

1 minute ago, vogelspinnen said:

Yeah but don't listen to us, we just have a taste for something different, and it just sucks that the taste is expensive. The best speakers are not the most expensive, but the ones that sound best to YOUR ears. As long as you had done your homework and heard different speakers, go for what sounds best to yourself. As long as you're enjoying it, you've won!

I'm gonna try and test these Z906 somewhere... They are actually out of my budget, but despair is winning me over, so... Also, they cost like 400€ but i can buy them on Amazon for 239€, that's why i'm even considering them

[rice guru]

3 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

I'm gonna try and test these Z906 somewhere... They are actually out of my budget, but despair is winning me over, so... Also, they cost like 400€ but i can buy them on Amazon for 239€, that's why i'm even considering them

first f all reatail that too much mone for them 239 euros i stil above msrp, they are not very good for the price and agree with everyone else 2 great speakers is waay better tha 5 just ok to bad speakers. 

[vogelspinnen]

1 minute ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

I'm gonna try and test these Z906 somewhere... They are actually out of my budget, but despair is winning me over, so... Also, they cost like 400€ but i can buy them on Amazon for 239€, that's why i'm even considering them

Go armed! Prepare the songs you listen to most, listen to them over and over on your own system, and take ur time taking it in. I even went with youtube videos of games so i can an idea of what to expect.

 

And yeah I'm a cheapskate so i would go in, test, and get them cheaper online

 

I would love to support local, but finances do not allow so unfortunately.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

1 minute ago, rice guru said:

first f all reatail that too much mone for them 239 euros i stil above msrp, they are not very good for the price and agree with everyone else 2 great speakers is waay better tha 5 just ok to bad speakers. 

The Z906 are bad to ok? And it's a bad choice even considering the "tracking" factor?

[Oddvar Ashborn]

Just now, vogelspinnen said:

Go armed! Prepare the songs you listen to most, listen to them over and over on your own system, and take ur time taking it in. I even went with youtube videos of games so i can an idea of what to expect.

 

And yeah I'm a cheapskate so i would go in, test, and get them cheaper online

 

I would love to support local, but finances do not allow so unfortunately.

Yeah i know what you mean, pretty much all the time online purchases are way less expensive.

[rice guru]

Just now, Oddvar Ashborn said:

The Z906 are bad to ok? And it's a bad choice even considering the "tracking" factor?

yes. plus you have to consider one thing how are you going to mount them to get proper postioning? are you going to mount them on stands? thats more money you have to spend. having 2 well placed good speakers especially on a near field setup can give you some monstrous imaging for things at are in front of you. 

[rice guru]

3 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

The Z906 are bad to ok? And it's a bad choice even considering the "tracking" factor?

just to be clear too. the speakers are just ok but for the price they are pretty bad. 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

1 minute ago, rice guru said:

yes. plus you have to consider one thing how are you going to mount them to get proper postioning? are you going to mount them on stands? thats more money you have to spend. having 2 well placed good speakers especially on a near field setup can give you some monstrous imaging for things at are in front of you. 

I was thinking on buying extendable arms and attach them to my desk. Then i could extend them  pretty much behind me (or somewhere like it), still have to check prices tho.

I know, problem is i won't be able to track anything behind me.

[rice guru]

also why not use IEMs or a very light headphone? akg k712 are very light, tin t2, have pretty decent imaging and sound stage.or the moondrop kanas pro, or the ibasso 1t01

[Oddvar Ashborn]

12 minutes ago, rice guru said:

also why not use IEMs or a very light headphone? akg k712 are very light, tin t2, have pretty decent imaging and sound stage.or the moondrop kanas pro, or the ibasso 1t01

Well, beside the small risk of it still being too heavy, a 2.0/2.1/5.1 would also give me the opportunity to play some music. Keeping in mind that i live in an apartment and i don't want to be evicted, so i also don't need something super powerful

[rice guru]

16 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

Well, beside the small risk of it still being too heavy, a 2.0/2.1/5.1 would also give me the opportunity to play some music. Keeping in mind that i live in an apartment and i don't want to be evicted, so i also don't need something super powerful

look at the kanto u2 or the micca mb42 or rb42 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

1 minute ago, rice guru said:

look at the kanto u2 or the micca mb42 or rb42 

If i were to go stereo, i would probably get the Edifier R1700Bt, what do you think?

[rice guru]

2 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

If i were to go stereo, i would probably get the Edifier R1700Bt, what do you think?

its pretty good for an active speaker feature wise  its like AIO unit. but I haven't really heard it so I can't say.. I prefer getting passive book sheves and hooking them up to my own amps and DACS 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

2 minutes ago, rice guru said:

its pretty good for an active speaker feature wise  its like AIO unit. but I haven't really heard it so I can't say.. I prefer getting passive book sheves and hooking them up to my own amps and DACS 

I'm gonna do a test with a friend tonight, to ascertain how much impact a 5.1 has on my ears in various gaming session. After that, i'll know what to do. I'll keep you all posted.

[an actual squirrel]

3 hours ago, WWicket said:

I only said it will beat it with headphones (perfectly/near-perfectly isolated left and right channels). If you don't think headphones can provide better spatial accuracy than 5.1, you are just wrong.

I'm a big headphone guy, and headphones can do more directions with hrtf than a 5.1 setup can. But a generic hrtf isn't as good as working with natural hearing like speakers can. So I'm not sure how the comparison would ultimately shake out.

 

3 hours ago, WWicket said:

Therefore it seems reasonable to expect a 5.1 system to have at least slightly worse left-to-right tracking than a similarly priced stereo system. Neither have 'real' height channels, so by the same token you could assume at least slightly better simulated vertical imaging by the stereo speakers. Since the 5.1 can pan front-to-back and the stereo setup can't, the 5.1 has significantly better imaging front-to-back. So you get slightly better imaging in two axes with stereo and much worse in one axis. But that axis is the one that your natural hearing is worst at distinguishing... people have difficulty telling when a sound is directly in front or behind them, if both they and the sound are at fixed positions and not turning. With stereo sound, if the simulated listener is rotating relative to the simulated sound source (like you are looking around in an fps), the location of the source can be determined based on volume shifts and left-right imaging.  Pretty much, the only time you are going to have significantly better spatial acoustic imaging with a 5.1  setup is if you are camping one spot in game and not looking around at all. [And if you are a dirty, camping sniper you deserve to get knifed in the back.]

The 5.1 is going to be better for gaming. First, you have the issue that the speakers in a 2.0 setup are in front of you, so sounds that are behind you in the game world become actively misleading because of the speaker positioning.

 

Then you talk about how you can use player movement to match the 5.1's directionality . It's true that it helps, but it has its limitations. First, since this works by changing the channel balance, things off to the side, where the channel balance has already bottomed out, can remain ambiguous even with movement. Second, you have the practical limitation that you can't always be rotating around all the time.

[homeap5]

Man, if you want Logitech speakers, buy Logitech speakers. For me it's plastic crap, but I'm used to listen music on good speakers.

 

I remember my first good speakers I bought - it was great experience, but I was wondering that maybe I've spend too much for them. So after 2 days of listening, I connected my old speakers to amplifier and... that was a DISASTER! It sounds terrible and I disconnect them after 2 minutes. You get used to listening good quality very fast and then everything worse sounds really bad. But if your sound experience is only based on cheap speakers, then you'll not notice any big difference between cheap Logitech and cheap Edifiers. They will sound good (for you) for few years until they die.

 

IMO is worth to buy decent amplifier and speakers - it's not for month, it's for years if you choose good. Computer will be outdated after 5 years, good speakers you may use until you'll be old and deaf. Is waste of money (IMO) to buying cheap speakers now and a little better later, and a little better etc. One single good purchase and you'll be satisfied for a long time, it's not worth saving money for that. Buy good speakers as long as you're young and hear difference.

 

[vogelspinnen]

1 hour ago, homeap5 said:

IMO is worth to buy decent amplifier and speakers - it's not for month, it's for years if you choose good. Computer will be outdated after 5 years, good speakers you may use until you'll be old and deaf. Is waste of money (IMO) to buying cheap speakers now and a little better later, and a little better etc. One single good purchase and you'll be satisfied for a long time, it's not worth saving money for that. Buy good speakers as long as you're young and hear difference.

That's very true. I spend a lot on audio stuff because unlike tech stuff, the same speaker will not become obsolete in 5 years and will last even more if you look after it.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

3 hours ago, homeap5 said:

Man, if you want Logitech speakers, buy Logitech speakers. For me it's plastic crap, but I'm used to listen music on good speakers.

 

I remember my first good speakers I bought - it was great experience, but I was wondering that maybe I've spend too much for them. So after 2 days of listening, I connected my old speakers to amplifier and... that was a DISASTER! It sounds terrible and I disconnect them after 2 minutes. You get used to listening good quality very fast and then everything worse sounds really bad. But if your sound experience is only based on cheap speakers, then you'll not notice any big difference between cheap Logitech and cheap Edifiers. They will sound good (for you) for few years until they die.

 

IMO is worth to buy decent amplifier and speakers - it's not for month, it's for years if you choose good. Computer will be outdated after 5 years, good speakers you may use until you'll be old and deaf. Is waste of money (IMO) to buying cheap speakers now and a little better later, and a little better etc. One single good purchase and you'll be satisfied for a long time, it's not worth saving money for that. Buy good speakers as long as you're young and hear difference.

 

 

1 hour ago, vogelspinnen said:

That's very true. I spend a lot on audio stuff because unlike tech stuff, the same speaker will not become obsolete in 5 years and will last even more if you look after it.

I get it, believe me i do, but the point is that right now i can't afford to spend that much, and i have to choose between a good audio quality stereo, giving up sound tracking, and a lesser audio quality 5.1, maintaining the tracking. If there's a third option then please, i'm all ears. (Pun intended)