best solution against blackouts

[spartaman64]

Yesterday there was a blackout at my workplace and it messed up a lot of systems people weren't able to access quickbooks or print etc after the blackout so my boss asked me to come up with solutions to prevent this from happening in future blackouts. here are some of the solutions I'm pondering and if you guys think of something else please tell me. We have a office and a warehouse so its best if we can keep the lights on also so the warehouse people can work.

 

UPSes

This will allow us to shut down the computers safely and probably help prevent the problems that occurred afterwards and this is probably the cheapest solution but we won't be able to work during the blackout.

 

Tesla powerwall

I read online that a tesla powerwall can power a house for about a day so maybe like 12 hours for us which is fine since our blackouts so far only lasted like 30 minutes or so. I'm slightly concerned that it won't be able to provide the power we need but we can cut back on our energy use during the blackout or get 2. I can ask my boss later to see our energy bills to get a general idea of how much continuous power we use.

 

backup generators

this is another solution that will provide power during the blackout but i read online that it takes a few seconds for them to start up and i dont think we want to keep them constantly running so we will still have a sudden loss of power. this is also a slight concern for the tesla powerwall but i cant find any info about if thats an issue and im guessing you can probably configure it in a way where its not 

 

The budget is around 10,000 dollars but obviously if we can get a proper solution for less the better and we are willing to spend more. 

[TommyTwommy]

I have absolutely 0 knowledge in this field.. but what about solar panels? 

[scottyseng]

UPS and Backup generator. The UPS unit holds you over until the generator comes online.

[Enderman]

The powerwall is basically a big UPS.

If you get a generator it will still require something like a powerwall or UPSes to avoid the short off-time.

With that budget I would look into some high capacity UPSes or powerwall.

A generator will be much more complicated to set up, at least one that can power a whole building.

You will need a whole room for it too.

You can get large UPSes that will power your computers for days.

[Levent]

Just now, berny22 said:

I have absolutely 0 knowledge in this field.. but what about solar panels? 

what happens when power goes out during a shady season? Solar panels + batteries are much more expensive solution. Generators are used more frequently with a relatively small battery backup (enough to last minutes while generator kicks in)

[spartaman64]

Just now, berny22 said:

I have absolutely 0 knowledge in this field.. but what about solar panels? 

i ruled that out since most of the blackouts seem to occur when its raining so idk how reliable that is.

[Lipe123]

So you are talking about having power in the entire office while the power is out, so just just a few key servers?

How many computers are we talking about?

Any laser printers, what about large xerox units etc?

 

The most cost effective option is a mid sized diesel generator. Sure solar panels, batteries and a big inverter could do the job but it would probably cost way more and the installation is infinitely more complex. I recently just did panels on my house with no batteries and that was over $20K so your $10K budget wont go far.

So anyways, if you have a smaller business you might get away with a smaller "home" generators like these

 

Idk how the laws work where you are, some places require you have special red plugs with a slightly altered pin like this, that would drive the costs up a lot too, so make sure about that first.

 

You will need a massive ups to handle the few seconds between power outage and generator start, that will cost quite a lot too. If you have less than 10 devices though it might be cheaper to get 10 individual ones to just keep things up till the generator runs.

 

To be honest this isn't a project I'd tackle alone, I'd suggest you talk to some local companies to see if any one has experience with setting up the required electric stuff. You will need to disconnect from the grid power before the generator is allowed to run. There are manual switchboard things for it or newer electronic systems that handle the changeover for you - and way faster.

[geo3]

53 minutes ago, scottyseng said:

UPS and Backup generator. The UPS unit holds you over until the generator comes online.

This. Although a generator system comes at a cost. A cheaper solution would be managed UPSs that let the PC know power has been lost so they can shut them selves down correctly.

[spartaman64]

12 minutes ago, Lipe123 said:

So you are talking about having power in the entire office while the power is out, so just just a few key servers?

How many computers are we talking about?

Any laser printers, what about large xerox units etc?

 

The most cost effective option is a mid sized diesel generator. Sure solar panels, batteries and a big inverter could do the job but it would probably cost way more and the installation is infinitely more complex. I recently just did panels on my house with no batteries and that was over $20K so your $10K budget wont go far.

So anyways, if you have a smaller business you might get away with a smaller "home" generators like these

 

Idk how the laws work where you are, some places require you have special red plugs with a slightly altered pin like this, that would drive the costs up a lot too, so make sure about that first.

 

You will need a massive ups to handle the few seconds between power outage and generator start, that will cost quite a lot too. If you have less than 10 devices though it might be cheaper to get 10 individual ones to just keep things up till the generator runs.

 

To be honest this isn't a project I'd tackle alone, I'd suggest you talk to some local companies to see if any one has experience with setting up the required electric stuff. You will need to disconnect from the grid power before the generator is allowed to run. There are manual switchboard things for it or newer electronic systems that handle the changeover for you - and way faster.

the entire office and warehouse we have 6 computers and a storage server. we have 2 hp laserjet pro 400 and a laserjet pro mfp we would also like to keep the warehouse lights on they are all fluorescent lights. im not planning to get solar just the powerwall if we go that route and its about 7600 dollars with installation for a powerwall from what i have seen. when our finance manager comes in in like 30 mins i can ask for our utility bills and get a better idea of our power usage

[harryk]

I think the cheapest solution that will fulfill your needs will be a large industrial UPS. Furthermore, I would hire an electrician to only route specific circuits through the UPS. No need to power all the lights, or printers, or refrigerator etc on the UPS. Only the computers or other essential equipment. If your building was wired correctly this shouldn't require extensive modification, only rewiring at the breaker box.

[Lipe123]

43 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

the entire office and warehouse we have 6 computers and a storage server. we have 2 hp laserjet pro 400 and a laserjet pro mfp we would also like to keep the warehouse lights on they are all fluorescent lights. im not planning to get solar just the powerwall if we go that route and its about 7600 dollars with installation for a powerwall from what i have seen. when our finance manager comes in in like 30 mins i can ask for our utility bills and get a better idea of our power usage

A Tesla powerwall is just a ups, but it is a pretty nice one. It might also have inputs for something like a generator to handle longer outages.

I'm not sure what the specs are on those since its not avail in Canada but I've heard with the rate they use cells in their cars that there is major shipping delays in getting delivery on the powerwalls. Also you'll have to make sure it can provide enough power of course.

 

I wouldn't keep all the lights on, the better option would be to install separate "emergency lights" that's LED and run on their own batteries. Unless you pair a generator with the ups then I guess it doesn't matter, you just need to make sure the ups/powerwall can handle the initial draw of all the things.

 

[spartaman64]

1 minute ago, Lipe123 said:

A Tesla powerwall is just a ups, but it is a pretty nice one. It might also have inputs for something like a generator to handle longer outages.

I'm not sure what the specs are on those since its not avail in Canada but I've heard with the rate they use cells in their cars that there is major shipping delays in getting delivery on the powerwalls. Also you'll have to make sure it can provide enough power of course.

 

I wouldn't keep all the lights on, the better option would be to install separate "emergency lights" that's LED and run on their own batteries. Unless you pair a generator with the ups then I guess it doesn't matter, you just need to make sure the ups/powerwall can handle the initial draw of all the things.

 

im not expecting to operate for days on the powerwall all of the blackouts so far have been a few minutes to an hour and i think a powerwall would be enough to cover them. a generator seems like too much of a hassle to maintain and we have to continuously buy gas for it as i heard you should get new gas every 6 months. and im not sure if we have room for it and idk i like the idea of it being outside i guess we can remove the warehouse lunch room and tell them to all use the office one

[Lipe123]

You know that saying "if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is" ?

A single powerwall powering an entire business for up to an hour?! That's something I want to see before I'll believe it. From what I can google they are 14KW/h for the powerwall 2.

 

Going with conservative estimates of 200w/h per computer with your 6 computers you are using 1.2kw/h then add in all the lights and other things.. maaaybe it will work. I'd still triple check the math to make sure it will handle the load for a while at least.

 

Easy to get an idea of current usage is to get a clamp on ammeter and measure the total current flow at the electric panel's main line.

 

[spartaman64]

15 minutes ago, Lipe123 said:

You know that saying "if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is" ?

A single powerwall powering an entire business for up to an hour?! That's something I want to see before I'll believe it. From what I can google they are 14KW/h for the powerwall 2.

 

Going with conservative estimates of 200w/h per computer with your 6 computers you are using 1.2kw/h then add in all the lights and other things.. maaaybe it will work. I'd still triple check the math to make sure it will handle the load for a while at least.

 

Easy to get an idea of current usage is to get a clamp on ammeter and measure the total current flow at the electric panel's main line.

 

3 of the computers are laptops i forgot and they can be disconnected. the other 3 are lenovo thinkcentre m710s with i3 7100 8gb of ram and 120gb ssd when the finance manager comes i can ask for the utility bills and probably do a pretty good estimate of power usage. ill present a powerwall option and a ups + generator option and have the president decide i guess

[taylorlightfoot]

So with a  budget of 10K, you are only going to have enough to buy 1 Powerwall and 1 backup gateway and the rest will go to the electrician.

 

It is doable.  You are going to want a sub panel that is on the backup battery in an outage.  Everything else in the existing panel will lose power during the outage.

 

That's the easy part.  Where it gets tricky is figuring out what you will be powering and making sure those circuits are migrated to the sub panel and that things that don't need power during a blackout are not using those migrated circuits.  

 

The Inverter in the Powerwall can deliver 5,000 watts and that's it.  So you need to take inventory of all the devices you expect to power and you need to know what their wattage draw is.  Use a kill-a-watt meter and start figuring out how much your devices consume.  Measure the printers when they are heating up and about to print.  Measure the network gear that keeps the Internet and printers and wifi working, measure the servers.

 

You cannot exceed 5k watts or you risk the Powerwall having a blackout itself.

 

You may want to keep lights off of backup depending on how many watts you come up with.

 

You may have to increase your budget and get two Powerwalls.  Then you could power up to 10,000 watts of stuff.

 

The Powerwall and backup gateway take over in milliseconds during a power outage.  Your equipment will not shut off in the transition like is the case with a generator.

 

The backup gateway is a big automatic transfer switch that isolates your battery from the grid in an outage since you're not allowed to backfeed a dead grid for lineman safety reasons.

 

I would also phone up Tesla Energy and enquire if it's possible to order the batteries separate from solar.  Currently the online ordering of the batteries is bundled with a solar system of your choosing.

 

Hope this helps.

[andrewmp6]

http://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators#?cat=6&cat=214&cat=217&cat=249

[spartaman64]

3 hours ago, andrewmp6 said:

http://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators#?cat=6&cat=214&cat=217&cat=249

whats the difference between their home and business generators http://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/commercial-generators#?cat=317

[Alan G]

31 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

whats the difference between their home and business generators http://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/commercial-generators#?cat=317

I assume size.  There are two buildings right near me that both use very large Generac systems.  One is an office building and the other is an assisted living facility for the elderly.  The back up system for the latter is particularly important as the elderly can have real health issues if the power goes down and there is no heat or AC.  Home units are just what you might expect, smaller generators and you can get them in various Kw delivery options.  I looked into one several years ago when power outages were quite common.  The utility was raked over the coals by the county for not aggressively trimming trees close to power lines.  They did the necessary trimming and we have only had one outage in the last three years despite a lot of pretty violent weather.  In that case the power was only down for two hours.

[spartaman64]

we operate 8am-5pm the longest blackout we had so far was about an hour they occur maybe like once a year.

 

edit: also i just realized why was this moved to cases and power supplies i guess technically we are talking about a big power supply lol

 

On 7/31/2019 at 10:41 AM, Lipe123 said:

 

 

On 7/31/2019 at 8:55 AM, James Evens said:

 

 

[Lipe123]

The bill wont help you, thats the total for the entire month. You need to know the peak instant values for your business.

 

Easiest way is to get a clamp on watt meter on the main line, power everything up you want to run when there is a blackout and measure how much power is being drawn.

 

To put it in easier terms, kwh is like the total distance you drive in a month/hour etc.

Measuring the kW in an instant is like the speed you are driving at. Your battery backup needs to be able to go the same speed or it will just trip when the load switches over to it.

[andrewmp6]

generator size just depends how much power the place needs to run,With a generator and ups the pcs will stay on in a black out if both are sized right for the needs.Most back up generators take like 30 secs before they kick on and after they you have no idea its on really.That small time frame the ups will cover the power lose.

[spartaman64]

15 hours ago, Lipe123 said:

The bill wont help you, thats the total for the entire month. You need to know the peak instant values for your business.

 

Easiest way is to get a clamp on watt meter on the main line, power everything up you want to run when there is a blackout and measure how much power is being drawn.

 

To put it in easier terms, kwh is like the total distance you drive in a month/hour etc.

Measuring the kW in an instant is like the speed you are driving at. Your battery backup needs to be able to go the same speed or it will just trip when the load switches over to it.

which watt meter do you recommend and where do i find the main line

[Lipe123]

5 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

which watt meter do you recommend and where do i find the main line

You should get an electrician to come do it, no sense to purchase something like that for a onetime use. You have to open up the main power panel and probably not a good idea to do yourself.