Lenovo Announces Kaby Lake/Optane Laptops

[Sniperfox47]

20 minutes ago, zMeul said:

no, it does not

the recent issues Lenovo had was with the PCH set in RAID mode; Lenovo issued a BIOS update to allow setting the PCH in AHCI mode

http://news.lenovo.com/news-releases/updated-lenovo-statement-on-linux-support-for-yogas-ideapads.htm

there's also a 36 page thread on Lenovo's forums discussing the issue: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/forums/v3_1/forumtopicpage/board-id/Special_Interest_Linux/thread-id/7814/page/1

 

 

as I said, Intel only provides RST for RedHat and SuSe

They only support it on that platform... It's a kernel module you can bake into the platform for whatever distribution you want. They just don't distribute it with most other distributions.

 

There is Linux support for RST that works with PCH. It's not built in the kernel for most distributions, but is available to compile into it yourself, and a distribution like Ubuntu could adopt it if they needed to support it for a laptop. That's all stuff I said in my original reply.

 

I have Intel RST running on Fedora 25 on my Skylake platform system at work. It's not impossible to do, or even particularly hard, just requires a little fidgeting with dm-crypt and mdadm.

 

SRT is a whole other story though, since Intel have currently purposefully locked off the firmware hints to only be usable by Windows.

[LAwLz]

42 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

That is not the true cost of an ethernet port. You have to produce the vertical space elsewhere and hide it until the item is purchased. It's just a stupid waste of space on a portable machine these days.

Just do like HP does on the laptop I posted. It really only takes up about the same amount as a USB type-A port (until you fold the port out of course, but that just makes the chassis bigger). Look at the image for yourself if you don't believe me.

And it's not a waste of space... We have a ton of space on laptops. There really is no excuse for not including it.

 

44 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Also, the signal remains perfect. There's 0 shift in the display.

1) No idea what display you're talking about.

2) "The display works" does not imply that the signal is perfect. It just implies that the signal did not degrade enough for the display to get bandwidth starved.

 

 

Anyway, fiber connectors on laptops is not a good idea.

[patrickjp93]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Just do like HP does on the laptop I posted. It really only takes up about the same amount as a USB type-A port (until you fold the port out of course, but that just makes the chassis bigger). Look at the image for yourself if you don't believe me.

And it's not a waste of space... We have a ton of space on laptops. There really is no excuse for not including it.

 

1) No idea what display you're talking about.

2) "The display works" does not imply that the signal is perfect. It just implies that the signal did not degrade enough for the display to get bandwidth starved.

 

 

Anyway, fiber connectors on laptops is not a good idea.

No it doesn't! Not when in use. I did look, and it's a gimmicky design.

 

We shall agree to disagree.

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

No it doesn't! Not when in use. I did look, and it's a gimmicky design.

Yes, it's just a gimmicky design that saves space.

 

3 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

We shall agree to disagree.

It's a good thing I disagree with you, otherwise we'd both be wrong.

[patrickjp93]

Just now, LAwLz said:

Yes, it's just a gimmicky design that saves space.

 

It's a good thing I disagree with you, otherwise we'd both be wrong.

It doesn't actually save space. The laptop still has to be thick enough in the middle to accommodate it at the edge, or you'd have to tilt the laptop to use it. It has the illusion of saving space.

[LAwLz]

2 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

It doesn't actually save space. The laptop still has to be thick enough in the middle to accommodate it at the edge, or you'd have to tilt the laptop to use it. It has the illusion of saving space.

What do you mean "has to be thick enough in the middle to accommodate it at the edge"? Did you not see the picture I posted? Here is another one. The slot itself literally folds out and becomes bigger. It is not a trick. The port itself is spring loaded with a flap so that it expands as you connect the cable. The port is physically smaller when it doesn't have a cable plugged in. Once a cable is plugged in the port protrudes from the regular laptop chassis.

It's not an illusion. The laptop becomes larger when you plug the cable in. If it weren't for the slightly raised feet, the laptop would actually become a bit wobbly when the Ethernet cable was plugged in.

 

 

 

And here is a very... beautiful... drawing I made in MS paint which shows how it works.

Red box = Ethernet connector

Black rectangle = laptop chassis

Grey part at the bottom = the hatch

 

First picture = Connector not plugged in.

Second picture = Connector plugged in.

[patrickjp93]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What do you mean "has to be thick enough in the middle to accommodate it at the edge"? Did you not see the picture I posted? Here is another one. The slot itself literally folds out and becomes bigger. It is not a trick. The port itself is spring loaded with a flap so that it expands as you connect the cable. The port is physically smaller when it doesn't have a cable plugged in. Once a cable is plugged in the port protrudes from the regular laptop chassis.

It's not an illusion. The laptop becomes larger when you plug the cable in. If it weren't for the slightly raised feet, the laptop would actually become a bit wobbly when the Ethernet cable was plugged in.

 

 

And here is a very... beautiful... drawing I made in MS paint which shows how it works.

Red box = Ethernet connector

Black rectangle = laptop chassis

Grey part at the bottom = the hatch

 

First picture = Connector not plugged in.

Second picture = Connector plugged in.

 

Yes, meaning you either have to have the laptop at the edge of a table (bad for posture),

Tilt the laptop up a couple degrees on one side (uncomfortable for vision), OR

The laptop has to make up for the ability to widen the slot by having a thicker clamshell in the middle and thicker rubber pads at the corners.

 

There's no free lunch. It's a sham to claim it saves any space whatsoever.

[leadeater]

14 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

It doesn't actually save space. The laptop still has to be thick enough in the middle to accommodate it at the edge, or you'd have to tilt the laptop to use it. It has the illusion of saving space.

Well there are rubber grips/standoffs on the bottom of the laptop if using it on a desk, like every other laptop. Since I have a very similar HP laptop I can say it does not actually spring/fold down even to the same level as the bottom of the laptop anyway.

 

I also have a similar HP business laptop at work that does not use the spring/fold down and just molds the square connector in to the chassis then it tapers back like normal along the rest of the edge.

 

That flap on the port is utterly pointless and does nothing to save thickness, plus the spring has lost it's tension on my personal one so it doesn't always work properly, WTF HP why so shit.

 

Real business laptops have docking station connectors which dictates the thickness, ultra slim laptops are for idiots that don't know any better. Slimness and weight have a negligible effect on each other. Also placing a laptop down on the docking station and sliding the lock across is by far better usability than putting a laptop down and having to reach for one or more thunderbolt cables and plugging them in. I can also leave the lid of the laptop closed and have a power button.

 

 

 

TL;DR Who the hell gives a crap about thickness, it's meaningless and for durability worse.

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

-snip-

Damn what model of laptop is that? HP using that spring design on a business model argh no please stop.

[patrickjp93]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Well there are rubber grips/standoffs on the bottom of the laptop if using it on a desk, like every other laptop. Since I have a very similar HP laptop I can say it does not actually spring/fold down even to the same level as the bottom of the laptop anyway.

 

I also have a similar HP business laptop at work that does not use the spring/fold down and just molds the square connector in to the chassis then it tapers back like normal along the rest of the edge.

 

That flap on the port is utterly pointless and does nothing to save thickness, plus the spring has lost it's tension on my personal one so it doesn't always work properly, WTF HP why so shit.

 

Real business laptops have docking station connectors which dictates the thickness, ultra slim laptops are for idiots that don't know any better. Slimness and weight have a negligible effect on each other. Also placing a laptop down on the docking station and sliding the lock across is by far better usability than putting a laptop down and having to reach for one or more thunderbolt cables and plugging them in. I can also leave the lid of the laptop closed and have a power button.

 

 

 

 

TL;DR Who the hell gives a crap about thickness, it's meaningless and for durability worse.

Not true, just pick better materials. European kitchen knife makers have learned that from the Japanese vendors such as Shun Kai. The same applies to any object. If you want it lighter and thinner but more durable, you just need to supply superior materials.

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Not true, just pick better materials. European kitchen knife makers have learned that from the Japanese vendors such as Shun Kai. The same applies to any object. If you want it lighter and thinner but more durable, you just need to supply superior materials.

And yet thickness isn't a large enough factor in weight when using such materials, so making a laptop thinner is worse. It costs more and achieves nothing, marketing is the only reason to make a thin laptop. High quality materials and thickness are not directly related, you can use good materials on a thick laptop.

 

Anyone that is going to stand around and try and debate that a thinner laptop is better is wasting their time, a debate on how fast paint dries would be more constructive.

 

Edit:

We both agree that flip down ethernet port is stupid.

[patrickjp93]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And yet thickness isn't a large enough factor in weight when using such materials, so making a laptop thinner is worse. It costs more and achieves nothing, marketing is the only reason to make a thin laptop. High quality materials and thickness are not directly related, you can use good materials on a thick laptop.

 

Anyone that is going to stand around and try and debate that a thinner laptop is better is wasting their time, a debate on how fast paint dries would be more constructive.

 

Edit:

We both agree that flip down ethernet port is stupid.

Not true. Just as carbon, vanadium, and palladium can make knife steel much lighter, each of them contributes differently to Rockwell hardness, edge retention, and rust resistance (higher carbon = harder and sharper but more rust prone, for instance). Different aluminum alloys have different weights, tensile strengths, and flexibility. The added cost does not go wasted. The two heaviest things in a MacBook Pro are the battery and the chassis, and they're nearly equal weight.

[LAwLz]

35 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Yes, meaning you either have to have the laptop at the edge of a table (bad for posture),

Tilt the laptop up a couple degrees on one side (uncomfortable for vision), OR

The laptop has to make up for the ability to widen the slot by having a thicker clamshell in the middle and thicker rubber pads at the corners.

 

There's no free lunch. It's a sham to claim it saves any space whatsoever.

Or you know, just have small rubber feet which lifts the laptop a few mm... Like it should have anyway.

Viola! All of a sudden it has saved space.

 

 

33 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Since I have a very similar HP laptop I can say it does not actually spring/fold down even to the same level as the bottom of the laptop anyway.

It does on mine. It has a tapered edge but the connector protrudes ever so slightly from the flat bottom once it's plugged in.

I'd prefer if it was like on your laptop though (the edge being slightly thicker where the connector is located).

 

33 minutes ago, leadeater said:

TL;DR Who the hell gives a crap about thickness, it's meaningless and for durability worse.

Totally agree, but sadly it's common for laptop manufacturers to have anorexia these days.

I'm just glad I found a powerful laptop with all the ports I need (although I could use another USB-A port).

 

31 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Damn what model of laptop is that? HP using that spring design on a business model argh no please stop.

Elitebook 850 g3

 

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

We both agree that flip down ethernet port is stupid.

If I had to pick between not having an Ethernet port, and having a flip down one then I'd pick the latter every day of the week.

I'd prefer if the laptop was just slightly thicker so that it could fit a regular one though.

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Not true. Just as carbon, vanadium, and palladium can make knife steel much lighter, each of them contributes differently to Rockwell hardness, edge retention, and rust resistance (higher carbon = harder and sharper but more rust prone, for instance). Different aluminum alloys have different weights, tensile strengths, and flexibility. The added cost does not go wasted. The two heaviest things in a MacBook Pro are the battery and the chassis, and they're nearly equal weight.

Just no, the difference in thickness and the extra material is not enough to effect the weight for a human to distinguish clearly. Only the sides of the chassis is larger and the difference between 2.1cm and 1.5cm in material weight requires scientific measuring scales.

 

Your welcome to try it out for yourself, go nuts.

http://www.aalco.co.uk/online-tools/weight-calculator/

[MageTank]

I like the part where I learned about knives in a thread about laptops. This forum is always full of these lovely little surprises.

[iamdarkyoshi]

On 12/27/2016 at 10:20 PM, huilun02 said:

Pay more for slightly faster boot that is barely noticeable, and backtrack to slower more power hungry mechanical drives.

Or is someone going to argue that it makes a big difference... at 16GB?

Its used in a config that essentially yields a hybrid drive

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, patrickjp93 said:

Not accurate for alloys, sorry. The fact japanese knives exactly the same size as german knives in ALL dimensions can be just 2/3 the weight based purely on the alloy and firing techniques proves you wrong.

Well other than knifes being extremely different in every way from a laptop chassis. If you had actually bothered to go to the link and type in the general dimensions of a laptop, pick between many different grades of aluminium, and other alloys, and specify the correct metal thickness you would have seen the difference in weight was less than 10 grams between 2.5 cm and 1.5 cm thick laptop.

 

Also basic common sense would have also made it totally obvious that there wouldn't be much weight difference, ever held an empty soft drink can then held two or a thin sheet of aluminium then held a slightly larger one.

 

When you've finished watching the entirety of this video I'll be happy to continue this discussion.

 

[patrickjp93]

14 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well other than knifes being extremely different in every way from a laptop chassis. If you had actually bothered to go to the link and type in the general dimensions of a laptop, pick between many different grades of aluminium, and other alloys, and specify the correct metal thickness you would have seen the difference in weight was less than 10 grams between 2.5 cm and 1.5 cm thick laptop.

 

Also basic common sense would have also made it totally obvious that there wouldn't be much weight difference, ever held an empty soft drink can then held two or a thin sheet of aluminium then held a slightly larger one.

 

When you've finished watching the entirety of this video I'll be happy to continue this discussion.

 

Except they're not in the purest sense of just being shaped metal, and your little website is wrong. It's using atomic weights and assuming uniform material density based on the dominant metal in the mix. It's nowhere near accurate. Take an iron-paladium alloy for instance. Just 1% palladium reduces the density by nearly 20% in the final product. The same thing can be true for aluminum alloys. You wind up with much larger volume but lower mixture density and yet still higher tensile strength.

[Bouzoo]

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

It does on mine. It has a tapered edge but the connector protrudes ever so slightly from the flat bottom once it's plugged in.

I'd prefer if it was like on your laptop though (the edge being slightly thicker where the connector is located).

It does depends on the laptop. Seeing how my N550 is slightly thicker and the connector doesn't even go near the bottom, there is still plenty of space left, you could almost fit another USB A port below it. With that said, I really like that design. I think I might be the minority. 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, patrickjp93 said:

Except they're not in the purest sense of just being shaped metal, and your little website is wrong. It's using atomic weights and assuming uniform material density. It's nowhere near accurate.

That was a quick 10 hours . It's more than accurate enough to demonstrate the point and you know it. Last I checked the total difference in laptop weight of 10 grams or 50 grams is in a practical sense nothing, so unless your claiming that site is more than 5 times incorrect I suggest you go back to the empty soft drink can test. FYI they are ~13.7 grams, and how many cans worth of material do you think it would take to increase the thickness of a laptop which is only changing four simple surface shape dimensions (sides, front and back).

[patrickjp93]

40 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That was a quick 10 hours . It's more than accurate enough to demonstrate the point and you know it. Last I checked the total difference in laptop weight of 10 grams or 50 grams is in a practical sense nothing, so unless your claiming that site is more than 5 times incorrect I suggest you go back to the empty soft drink can test. FYI they are ~13.7 grams, and how many cans worth of material do you think it would take to increase the thickness of a laptop which is only changing four simple surface shape dimensions (sides, front and back).

No it's not because it's not remotely scientific. And the difference ends up being 300 grams+.

 

25+ easy.

[Dackzy]

this thread is golden.

 

It is a bad thing if they really want to make their laptops thinner. Why you ask? Because cooling will get worse, when cooling get worse then the lifespan of the laptop gets shorter and performance often goes down. These are business class laptops, not braindead idiot laptops, so this thinnes race can just fuck off. Come back with a 2.5cm thick T4x0s that can cool a 45w CPU, like the old T4x0s' could do.

 

Also who the fuck cares if a business laptop gets 100g lighter, it is a business laptop, not a idiot form over function laptop, you must expect it to be heavier and thicker than a shitty Ultrabook that cannot even handle a 15w CPU. A business laptop is kinda meant to be a "big" laptop compared to other laptops with the same screen size, why? Because they are meant to be able to take a beating and still work and have good cooling, that level of build quality and cooling takes up space.

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, patrickjp93 said:

No it's not because it's not remotely scientific. And the difference ends up being 300 grams+.

 

25+ easy.

And where did you get 300 grams from.

 

Quote

All weights shown using this metal weight calculator are for guidance only. They are calculated using nominal dimensions and scientifically recognised densities. 

 

[Sniperfox47]

55 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

this thread is golden.

 

It is a bad thing if they really want to make their laptops thinner. Why you ask? Because cooling will get worse, when cooling get worse then the lifespan of the laptop gets shorter and performance often goes down. These are business class laptops, not braindead idiot laptops, so this thinnes race can just fuck off. Come back with a 2.5cm thick T4x0s that can cool a 45w CPU, like the old T4x0s' could do.

 

Also who the fuck cares if a business laptop gets 100g lighter, it is a business laptop, not a idiot form over function laptop, you must expect it to be heavier and thicker than a shitty Ultrabook that cannot even handle a 15w CPU. A business laptop is kinda meant to be a "big" laptop compared to other laptops with the same screen size, why? Because they are meant to be able to take a beating and still work and have good cooling, that level of build quality and cooling takes up space.

Apparently some people do. Look at Lenovo's existing high end line of ThinkPads, they're designed as increadibly thin "ultra portable" business class machines.

 

Additionally the thinness isn't just about weight, it's about portability. It's easier to toss a 13" super thin Ultrabook in a briefcase to carry around with you for business use than it is to toss a 15" thick desktop replacement around everywhere you go.

 

I don't know why everyone's focussed on the weight, if I were using a laptop for work I'd be much more concerned about the thickness and other dimensions when I'm lugging it around than I would be about the weight.

[leadeater]

28 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

I don't know why everyone's focussed on the weight, if I were using a laptop for work I'd be much more concerned about the thickness and other dimensions when I'm lugging it around than I would be about the weight.

What makes a 13" laptop that's 13mm thick so much better than a 13" laptop that's 25mm thick. Everything about both laptops is exactly the same bar that, you could make the 25mm laptop better since it has room for more I/O ports and more variety of them which is the issue with thin laptops. All downsides and no up sides at all.

 

The premise being discussed is that laptop thickness actually plays a significant part in the weight of a laptop which simply is not true. The parts that were removed from the laptop make it lighter e.g. DVD drive. You don't have to have a DVD drive in a thicker laptop....

 

My fundamental point is thinness is only about marketing, it has no real benefit. It sells laptops so it's smart from a business point of view so I can't knock them for that, only that it's a lie that people actually believe.