Jagged Shadows,Pop in,Low LOD and jagged aa

[Asasinas]

Is there a way to switch between Z-buffer values (16, 24 and 32bit)? How do I know that my GPU using the correct value?

 

I'm asking because I've read this. He says that he has bad AA in all games and to fix this Z-buffer value has to be changed. The question is, how could we "mess" with Z-buffer values? I don't know any apps which would allow to change it.

 

I also tried Black Desert Online, and as expected, flickering and shimmering everywhere... I didn't bother to make a video, because there are good examples of the issue: video 1, video 2 and video 3.

I checked game forums and some people blame Z-buffer (depth buffering) and that there could be something wrong with Z-buffer values specifically.

 

So, again, how to check if my gpu, cpu, windows or whoever uses it is using the correct value?

[Cypek]

https://www.gamedev.net/forums/topic/484918-flickering-edges-in-opengl/?page=2

 

Topic from 2008 about opengl from 2008.

 

One guy gave this answer which sounds reasonable:

Quote

This is not the z-fighting problem we usually described.

It is probably because the edge is described by two different sets of vertices on the two side. And therefore, the faces on the left side and right side did not raster to give the same value along the edge. As shown in the image, the dots on the flickering edge appear as white. It is not possible caused by z-fighting as the left side and the right side are converging to the same color which is not white. Indeed, the dots are ceases, just like little holes on the wall. The white dots are the 3D scene behind the surface.

You can verify it easily. Try to paint the 3D scene behind the surface using red color, the dots should become red.

Beside, this problem is more obvious on ATI display card and less obvious on NVidia display card. Therefore, it may disappeared if you replace your display card.

I think it might be connected with our problem.

[tantalus]

I just gave up playing DX11 games lol. Or at least those that dont support TAA or TXAA or have terrible shadow/flickering problems.  For now. I just cant. The only game that im playing right now is shadow of the tomb raider, and barely. Those incredibly low-quality shadows are killing me, but well, either that or stop playing dx1x games at all. The other one game im playing is american truck simulator (and euro truck simulator 2) BUT in DX9, not in DX11. Thanks to nvidia inspector i was able to get rid of those shimmering edges and flickering most of it, with the downgrade of losing a little bit quality and performance because of DX9 . More than that, DX11-DX12 games are completely screwed. And i already uninstalled the witcher 3 (that was a pain to play), and assasin's creed. Was planning to start playing others, but i wont. I dont have the guts. There are numerous posts in nvidia forums about these problems but it looks like nvidia/microsoft/whoever is not willing to do anything about it. Mostly because many people still didnt realize about this problem, and others consider it "normal" for the times we live in... go figure (probably young gamers who started gaming five years ago).

 

Of course, i will never EVER buy an expensive videocard again to play "AAA" games. Thats for sure. Because, well, they are not AAA games anymore. So.

[tantalus]

On 9/29/2019 at 1:23 AM, DaoNayt said:

If it was a registry issue, then a Windows reinstall would fix it.

 

lol. It will be really laughable if after all this, it was related to the registry... i mean.. come on.... after so many years

[Cypek]

9 minutes ago, tantalus said:

I just gave up playing DX11 games lol. Or at least those that dont support TAA or TXAA or have terrible shadow/flickering problems.  For now. I just cant. The only game that im playing right now is shadow of the tomb raider, and barely. Those incredibly low-quality shadows are killing me, but well, either that or stop playing dx1x games at all. The other one game im playing is american truck simulator (and euro truck simulator 2) BUT in DX9, not in DX11. Thanks to nvidia inspector i was able to get rid of those shimmering edges and flickering most of it, with the downgrade of losing a little bit quality and performance because of DX9 . More than that, DX11-DX12 games are completely screwed. And i already uninstalled the witcher 3 (that was a pain to play), and assasin's creed. Was planning to start playing others, but i wont. I dont have the guts. There are numerous posts in nvidia forums about these problems but it looks like nvidia/microsoft/whoever is not willing to do anything about it. Mostly because many people still didnt realize about this problem, and others consider it "normal" for the times we live in... go figure (probably young gamers who started gaming five years ago).

 

Of course, i will never EVER buy an expensive videocard again to play "AAA" games. Thats for sure. Because, well, they are not AAA games anymore. So.

 

But i wonder how it is possible that exactly same games which had no issues back in 2007(for an example) and now when I try to run them with much better PC and monitor, with highest possible graphic settings and 2K resolution, they have this annoying jaggies problem...

Take a look at this:

You can see flickering with all cards, also low draw distance. I remember that I have run this game with core 2 duo + 9800GT without any flickering. I just downloaded this game like 5 minutes ago and is totally unplayable, much worse looking than in this video. Almost everything flickers.

Maybe "caching" connected with GPU was different back then?

 

On 9/11/2019 at 1:09 AM, I_dont_know200 said:

This is the Problem --> For all the new people

Feel free to repost/edit this if necessary

 

The Problem:

 

It is probably the most annoying and persistent bug i ever had, it looks like a case of bad flickering on edges and transparent things (fences, windows, leaves and plants), it happens in all games for many even on youtube videos and for some on the Desktop, Bios Logo etc.

Its strength is different for each Game some are barely playable anymore others only have a few locations where its noticeable.

There is definitly a connection to Anti Aliasing and Shadows since turning off Shadows can greatly reduce this, advanced AA Settings like MSAA can even improve this significantly but there is a huge performance loss and its not applicable in all Games.

In General its like AA is only working partily, in close aproximity to the player character everything looks fine besides weapon models, also noticeable is that for example a very detailed mesh is more inclined to have it.

There are also reported cases of low draw distance etc. you can read it up in the posted links.

 

How it happend:

 

In this regard all cases are similar it happend overnight and for many on all devices, this includes not connected devices like smartphones and notebooks, taking your smartphone to a different location doesn't work either buying new devices or components only worked in very few cases most of em not even confirmed.

 

Known devices with this issue: Desktop PCs, Notebooks, Consoles (PS4 and Xbox one), Smartphones, TVs and Monitors

 

Is it Hardware related?

 

At this point and after over a month of research testing and troubleshooting i think its safe to assume that its not hardware related nothing suggests this.

 

What has been tried yet?

 

 

Tried by myself (and others):

 

• Full OS reinstall with CMOS clean

• Reinstall drivers

• Checking cables and monitors

• Checking router and other peripherals

• Test devices at different locations

• Driver rollback (with DDU aswell)

• Testing all Hardware components (didnt do that myself since i lack the necessary equipment)

• Switching GPU, PSU and other parts

• Playing arround with Nvidia System Control and Inspector

 

I will add to this list if there are any more suggestions or solution approaches.

 

You are just Imagining this!!

 

No we are not and quite frankly i am annoyed by those comments by now, this is very real and prevents many from enjoying there freetime, but nevertheless i understand why many people think this, since it was observed by a few people me included, that this problem is only visible if you have it or it is filmed with a camera ofscreen, i might post a few examples since youtube really lacks that kind of footage.

 

Its just Aliasing, buy a 4k monitor or use DSR!!

 

Well here we go again aren't we? (>_>) i can assure you after thorough testing and research its not normal AA behaviour, some people followed this advice though and only had maginal improvements, besides the fact that those measures where not necessary beforehand.

In terms of DSR and other options they work but only very limited, i only had success with ingame MSAA/DSR and that was performance heavy while only masking the issue.

How about NvAPI?

I have found another one "reasonable" cause.

 

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/discover/257194/gtx-flickering-low-draw-d-shadows-bugs-the-solution-/

 

[I_dont_know200]

1 hour ago, Cypek said:

 

But i wonder how it is possible that exactly same games which had no issues back in 2007(for an example) and now when I try to run them with much better PC and monitor, with highest possible graphic settings and 2K resolution, they have this annoying jaggies problem...

Take a look at this:

You can see flickering with all cards, also low draw distance. I remember that I have run this game with core 2 duo + 9800GT without any flickering. I just downloaded this game like 5 minutes ago and is totally unplayable, much worse looking than in this video. Almost everything flickers.

Maybe "caching" connected with GPU was different back then?

 

How about NvAPI?

I have found another one "reasonable" cause.

 

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/discover/257194/gtx-flickering-low-draw-d-shadows-bugs-the-solution-/

 

Still wont explain why so many devices get this at once, but yea its reasonable. Man i hate one in particularry of the commentators on the nvidia forums.... he is under every thread that is connected with this.

Anyway you can present this to an nvidia tech and ask him if that might fix this.

 

I honestly think though an external cause is the most plausible since i allready saw alot of devices in my town which all show the same issue atleast in videos.

[Asasinas]

I wonder did anyone tried HDMI cable with built-in AA filter?

[can0753]

 

[tantalus]

Oh man. Burnout paradise city, probably the best racing game ive ever played, i remember i did stop playing because i was waiting for the island expansion for PC (like almost every single pc player), and it never came, and i was so dissapointed that i just did stop playing , and of course i didnt buy anything else from that company after that.

 

I thought about playing it again, but with all this fuzz about these problems i just completely forgot. Its "good" to see that i did the right thing about not picking it up again.

 

So sad, terribly sad.

 

About the hdmi aa cable, i dont think that will solve anything at all. In my opinion, all of this it is an strategy of microsoft/nvidia to force players to buy most expensive hardware , like 4k screens. But that will never justify the poor quality of the shadows and other things that should not be related directly to dx11 but the game engine itself. Sigh, at this point, im clueless like everybody else.

[DaoNayt]

Just tried NFS Underground 2 on my old laptop. It looks just as bad as everything else. It has IDENTICAL issues as everything on my new system now. I can't say for sure, but I don't think it looked this bad when I played it all those years ago.

 

So even old games on old hardware aren't immune.

 

As for the fix regarding northbridge, it has been mentioned many times, but northbridges dont exist on new hardware and no one has ever confirmed that this fix works.

 

BTW Nvidia's new mobile-friendly forum is unreadable. What the hell were they thinking...

[DaoNayt]

2 hours ago, Asasinas said:

I wonder did anyone tried HDMI cable with built-in AA filter?

This is no different than using ReShade to add post-process AA. Again, we are trying to FIX this, not cover it up with AA.

[tantalus]

2 hours ago, DaoNayt said:

So even old games on old hardware aren't immune.

No, they are not. But on old games, probably you have as main shader DX9, so you can use nvidia inspector (if you have an nvidia card of course) to apply a proper antialiasing and other fixes. Now, you are not going to fix bad shadow casting or most flickering but the shimmering on edges is going to be almost non existent.

 

Thats what i did on euro truck simulator, for example (and this game is not that old, but luckily the game engine is bad and it had dx9 as main shader until a few months ago... :s).

[Bitclaymore]

So this is white dots you guys are talking about? https://youtu.be/Jwghpyi3sCk

[can0753]

[Jokel 1]

Got horrible shadow flickering in games after buying new gpu and psu,changed gpu and reinstalled windows but it didn't help.

[Cypek]

Guys I have found small reduction which might reduce jaggies of some games to "playable". Right click the .exe file the game(not shortcut) then go to propeties, then chose

compatibility and mark "turn off fullscreen optimalizations"

[KarathKasun]

I also found something interesting in Elite, if I have the resolution set to something that isnt divisible by 4 (1366x768) corruption appears in the fog and shadow shaders.

 

This happens with the "volumetric effects" setting under "ultra" on NV and AMD cards.

[Harsh45]

On 9/30/2019 at 1:45 PM, DaoNayt said:

This is no different than using ReShade to add post-process AA. Again, we are trying to FIX this, not cover it up with AA.

Great point!!  I don’t want ANY bandaids for these issues,  either we find the culprit causing all these issues or nothing at all...   We shouldn’t have to tweak a fucking thing,  boot up the pc and game PERIOD!   

[KarathKasun]

22 minutes ago, Harsh45 said:

Great point!!  I don’t want ANY bandaids for these issues,  either we find the culprit causing all these issues or nothing at all...   We shouldn’t have to tweak a fucking thing,  boot up the pc and game PERIOD!   

Use a CRT if you can get a hold of one, see if aliasing persists.

 

Im actually doing this myself as a sanity check on some of the small issues I have, but I have to build some components to adapt the CRTs I have to work with a normal PC.  The CRTs I have are old workstation monitors, only support a single resolution (1280x1024 @72hz), and require a very specific type of synchronization signalling.

 

I really need a better camera to get data from this, but Ill make do with what I have.

[can0753]

I bought a new computer, in the same way I bought a new screen again.
problem persists.
I know it has nothing to do with the hardware, but it expects it to be human.
new pc settings
Asus EX-H310M-V3 Gaming,İntel İ3 9100F 4.2 Ghz,Crucial 8GB Ddr4 2133Mhz,Asus ROG Strix RX 570 4GB,Fsp 80+ 500w,Toshiba TR200 240GB SSD,WD BLUE 1TB HDD,Power Boost VK1009B Deluxe Serisi,Dark Ultra Bright RGB fan kiti 2x Led,Dark x90 İşlemci Soğutucu,AOC E2461FWH 23.6 2MS 75HZ FullHD Monitör,Logitech Driving Force Gt,MotoSpeed CK104,Bloody A9081,Casper 2+1 Bass boosted Ses Sistemi

[DaoNayt]

The problem appeared right away?

[tantalus]

Nop. This is not "physiologic". We wish lol. Please before you guys say such nonsense, read all the pages before reaching this point. Its an advice. Some people really dont pay attention to quality details, and they play games without worrying about if the game have jagged edges, terrible shadows, shimmering or whatever. These players usually are not smart enough and they even demand "AAA" games without even knowing what that means. Now, veteran smart gamers have been complaining about these problems since YEARS ago. Because they are really noticeable problems, depending of the game, those problems can be really noticeable, or almost non existent. But the point is, they are still there. No matter what you do. And in some games, these problems are making those games literally unplayable. Many of them. And the problem is getting worst, i guess that in time even non smart gamers will realize that their games look terrible, and they will say that its because of drivers or things like that until many people wake em up. Just patience. It will happen.

 

Features of AAA games besides high res textures, are precisely good AA, great shadows, great lod management, and other things. If all of that fails, sorry but there is no reason to call such game an AAA game anymore. Problem is, many rich kids dont even know what AAA means lol. And they probably were born yesterday.

 

And no lol, a computer doesnt have broken AA, that is up to the dx libraries and/or the game engine, not even the graphics card can have broken "AA". It doesnt work like that lmao.

 

And no, again, buying a new computer doesnt fix anything, like you said. In fact, it gets worst if you replace an old system with a new one. Please stop spreading false information and of course, re-read all the post from page one because you are clueless. No offense.

 

We keep doing the same as we did since a long time ago. Guys instead of keep trying to fix the problem with steps WE ALREADY discarded as fixes (like buying a new computer, come on...) going in circles, stop, there is nothing we can do at this point. Only nvidia/microsoft can do anything about it.

[can0753]

2 minutes ago, YiGiT353 said:

Was there any noticable reduction to the problem or does it still continue with the same intencity as before?

The problem continues the same

[lobolaw1984]

1 hour ago, YiGiT353 said:

I don't think the AA problem is caused by any kind of electrical problem, we are cycling around the same "electric" theory which has been proven false by a guy who tried a generator to supply the power. I also want to believe that many people solved the problem with a new PC build but didn't come back to report an issue.
I might be completely false, but I think this problem is caused physologically.
Truth is that there are jagged edges even with computers which have proper and working anti-aliasing.

People usually won't notice those unless they look very closely.
Now since our computers have broken AA, we are very likely to notice every single jagged edge, because we know about the problem and we are looking for it.

After one solves the problem by replacing the computer, the aliasing reduces to normal amounts but the user still reports the tiny amount of "normal" aliasing and say that the issue didn't go away.
This is my theory about the problem we have been having. I might be completely wrong and I do not accept any responsibility of my claims.

It is not psychological. It is absolutely 100% an immediate and obvious drop in graphical fidelity. It is marked by jagged AA, shimmering, and low fidelity jagged shadows. 

[can0753]

my friend has just collected it the he does not have this problem