Linus' Samsung G7 First Impressions is Slightly Misleading

[NF-F12]

 

I understand that this is a sponsored video but I still can't get the following out of my brain because I know that Linus knows very well how VA monitors work, and his tone of voice strongly indicates that what he is seeing should be taken as a positive aspect of the monitor by a potential consumer.

 

• Dragging a window around, the edge (black) transitions into a background image that is likely outside of the smear-prone shade range at least on the left side of the image, the pixel response can live up to the refresh rate here. The black borders around the window either transition into the background, or into the white of the window itself which will take place quickly.
• UFO test which has a black background, this masks smear of the edges of the images because they can fall into cushion of shade 0 between the images everywhere apart from the right hand side of the image, which will transition into a much brighter shade which will take place infinitely faster.

 

Samsung's previous 240Hz curved VA (CRG5) had typical VA response transitioning in the 1-150 and in dark scenes it clearly doesn't matter what the refresh rate is, it is going to smear like crazy when you ask it to go dark to dark. I expect the same from this monitor.

 

 

Here is my opinion on this mointor based on the previous iteration of the same technology by Samsung and my own assumptions. It doesn't have variable overdrive because it doesn't have a Gsync module (which has dynamic overdrive built in), Freesync doesn't mandate it to have it in the spec (almost no Freesync monitors do have it), it doesn't have witchcraft involved in it it's production. It has ELMB (backlight strobing), this is the advancement that this monitor includes to combat ghosting/smearing whatever you want to call it.

 

 

The following things will likely be true about this monitor.

 

• Dark to dark transition performance will be notably bad (up to nearly 40ms bad), there will be smearing when you pan the camera in dark areas of games just like EVERY other VA panel and it will be unaffected by high refresh/frame rate, because pixel response is not controlled by those things.
• VRR on will impair performance of the overdrive because the fluctuations in refresh rate will cause overshoot some of the time (like any other Freesync panel, the spec doesn't mandate inclusion of dynamic overdrive and nobody seems to implement it, you have to buy a monitor with a Gsync module to get that.)
• ELMB will cause sensory system issues with certain people, we have flicker-free backlight as the standard now because PWM objectively causes sensory system issues in some humans. I don't regard ELMB as a complete solution to poor pixel response.

 

The use of VA for a high refresh rate gaming panel is in my opinion being done because it allows the production of a curved display without spending too much money, Samsung have not gone out of their way to make anything fundamentally new here, it is a mish mash of existing technologies with a very high price tag, the sort of price tag it is almost a sin not to have a high quality IPS panel with a Gsync module at this resolution.

 

 

 

I don't really expect a reply from the man himself but I know that his knowledge of this technology is as good as mine, and as a result I feel that this video is a little bit misleading because of sponsorship. Linus, you say at the end that you will have to properly test response times which I give credit for, but you cannot deny the impact of this first impressions video on consumers or that you are fully aware of the points I've raised being valid.

[LinusTech]

31 minutes ago, NF-F12 said:

 

I understand that this is a sponsored video but I still can't get the following out of my brain because I know that Linus knows very well how VA monitors work, and his tone of voice strongly indicates that what he is seeing should be taken as a positive aspect of the monitor by a potential consumer.

 

• Dragging a window around, the edge (black) transitions into a background image that is likely outside of the smear-prone shade range at least on the left side of the image, the pixel response can live up to the refresh rate here. The black borders around the window either transition into the background, or into the white of the window itself which will take place quickly.
• UFO test which has a black background, this masks smear of the edges of the images because they can fall into cushion of shade 0 between the images everywhere apart from the right hand side of the image, which will transition into a much brighter shade which will take place infinitely faster.

 

Samsung's previous 240Hz curved VA (CRG5) had typical VA response transitioning in the 1-150 and in dark scenes it clearly doesn't matter what the refresh rate is, it is going to smear like crazy when you ask it to go dark to dark. I expect the same from this monitor.

 

 

Here is my opinion on this mointor based on the previous iteration of the same technology by Samsung and my own assumptions. It doesn't have variable overdrive because it doesn't have a Gsync module (which has dynamic overdrive built in), Freesync doesn't mandate it to have it in the spec (almost no Freesync monitors do have it), it doesn't have witchcraft involved in it it's production. It has ELMB (backlight strobing), this is the advancement that this monitor includes to combat ghosting/smearing whatever you want to call it.

 

 

The following things will likely be true about this monitor.

 

• Dark to dark transition performance will be notably bad (up to nearly 40ms bad), there will be smearing when you pan the camera in dark areas of games just like EVERY other VA panel and it will be unaffected by high refresh/frame rate, because pixel response is not controlled by those things.
• VRR on will impair performance of the overdrive because the fluctuations in refresh rate will cause overshoot some of the time (like any other Freesync panel, the spec doesn't mandate inclusion of dynamic overdrive and nobody seems to implement it, you have to buy a monitor with a Gsync module to get that.)
• ELMB will cause sensory system issues with certain people, we have flicker-free backlight as the standard now because PWM objectively causes sensory system issues in some humans. I don't regard ELMB as a complete solution to poor pixel response.

 

The use of VA for a high refresh rate gaming panel is in my opinion being done because it allows the production of a curved display without spending too much money, Samsung have not gone out of their way to make anything fundamentally new here, it is a mish mash of existing technologies with a very high price tag, the sort of price tag it is almost a sin not to have a high quality IPS panel with a Gsync module at this resolution.

 

 

 

I don't really expect a reply from the man himself but I know that his knowledge of this technology is as good as mine, and as a result I feel that this video is a little bit misleading because of sponsorship. Linus, you say at the end that you will have to properly test response times which I give credit for, but you cannot deny the impact of this first impressions video on consumers or that you are fully aware of the points I've raised being valid.

I dont find VA's poor dark response times nearly as offensive as some people in the same way that IPS glow has never bothered me.

 

I'm really impressed with the experience of gaming on this thing but as noted in the video it needs James to come back from vacation and really put it through its paces.

[TrigrH]

6 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

I dont find VA's poor dark response times nearly as offensive as some people in the same way that IPS glow has never bothered me.

 

I'm really impressed with the experience of gaming on this thing but as noted in the video it needs James to come back from vacation and really put it through its paces.

I agree, I personally prefer to game on VA, If i look for it I can see the blacks trail a bit but since its black its often not noticeable. The contrast is worth the trade off imo. 

 

The only time I have a problem is VA ghosting is when the blacks start ghosting RED or GREEN. (seen this happen on a few 40-50 inch TVs)

[Doobeedoo]

I'm curious about the review, personally I don't like curved nor VA monitors. 

[NF-F12]

@LinusTech Thank you for reading my post.

 

With regard to IPS glow then, it may not bother you personally but if you were making a piece about an IPS panel which had really bad bleed you'd have to at least mention it.

 

With IPS panels, everyone will address the elephant in the room which is backlight bleed/glow but with VA I feel that response time is the elephant. You could say that the amount of IPS bleed does actually vary from panel to panel of the same model and therefore you can't make a "1 size fits all" statement about it which is true, but the response time in darker shades of a VA is guarunteed to be equally poor in them all per model.

 

For a gaming monitor that is a VA and has 1ms written on the box? You must let people know that even though 1ms is a box number that most monitors use a horrible overshooty mess of a top OD setting to achieve, it is totally unrealistic on a VA, more like a 1000000000000bazilion:1 dynamic contrast ratio number than realistic.

 

Response time and refresh rate are unquestionably the 2 things gamers look at as priority when shopping for a monitor, if one is lacking they deserve to know before dropping hundreds.

 

Thanks again for reading, I look forward to more G7 content from your team.

[SolarNova]

5 hours ago, NF-F12 said:

@LinusTech Thank you for reading my post.

 

With regard to IPS glow then, it may not bother you personally but if you were making a piece about an IPS panel which had really bad bleed you'd have to at least mention it.

 

With IPS panels, everyone will address the elephant in the room which is backlight bleed/glow but with VA I feel that response time is the elephant. You could say that the amount of IPS bleed does actually vary from panel to panel of the same model and therefore you can't make a "1 size fits all" statement about it which is true, but the response time in darker shades of a VA is guarunteed to be equally poor in them all per model.

 

For a gaming monitor that is a VA and has 1ms written on the box? You must let people know that even though 1ms is a box number that most monitors use a horrible overshooty mess of a top OD setting to achieve, it is totally unrealistic on a VA, more like a 1000000000000bazilion:1 dynamic contrast ratio number than realistic.

 

Response time and refresh rate are unquestionably the 2 things gamers look at as priority when shopping for a monitor, if one is lacking they deserve to know before dropping hundreds.

 

Thanks again for reading, I look forward to more G7 content from your team.

 

LTT as it stand has yet to show that they have the capability to objectively test Pixel response time (not intended as an insult, u need specific equipment to do it), as such their videos on monitors is limited to subjective opinions on the UFO test when it comes to response time.

As Linus says, he doesnt notice Ghosting very much, nor does he notice IPS glow much. As such u can understand the lack of any negativity in this regard.

 

Now is it ideal, no .. BUT , so long as a viewer knows its a subjective opinion, theres nothing wrong here. Now will all viewers know this is subjective opinion , no ofc not, common sense isnt all that common anymore but none the less it isnt on LTT to keep reiterating that what they're saying is subjective when its obviously subjective.

 

I do want to make it clear however, i do agree with u overall, and especially what u say about the technical side of things.

Its a guarantee that any VA panel display touting 240hz is going to be utter dogsh*t when it comes to the actual visibility of those frames. There is no way in hell a VA panel is going to be able to display the 0-20% transitions, even just to 90% transition, in under 4ms (without massive overshoot), and most certainly not a 100% transition measurement.

 

That being said, it could turn out to be the best VA panel for gaming on the market. It may technically not be good enough for 240hz, but to be the best for VA, it doesnt have to be, it just needs to be good enough.

If it is uniform, has high contrast, a good black level, adequate viewing angles (another issue VA has), has good factory calibration, and focuses on getting the 0-20% transition as fast as it can without overshoot, then it will be the best VA panel u can get.

However, i dont think that will be the case, 'most' of the above 'features' are not focused on by manufacturers in this specific subsection of the Display market.

[K-The Kid]

You got the last bit correct about James,Linus.

[GamingWiidesire]

On 7/7/2020 at 7:46 AM, NF-F12 said:

The following things will likely be true about this monitor.

 

• Dark to dark transition performance will be notably bad (up to nearly 40ms bad), there will be smearing when you pan the camera in dark areas of games just like EVERY other VA panel and it will be unaffected by high refresh/frame rate, because pixel response is not controlled by those things.

Almost got it. You just guessed wrong by a factor of 10.

[SolarNova]

2 hours ago, GamingWiidesire said:

Almost got it. You just guessed wrong by a factor of 10.

 

If im not mistaken that doesnt show overshoot, and the darkest transition is 0-50%. The 0-20% is the worst by far for VA's.

 

With those speeds, if they are correct, i would expect significant overshoot, especially on the faster OD setting.

A ~2.2ms 0-50% transition without overshoot would be amazing, but i HIGHLY suspect there is actually a good deal amount of overshoot.

 

Below are some examples of a couple of the best VA panel response times from rtings testing.

Spoiler

Samsung CHG70

 

LG 32GK850GB

 

If u look at those u can see that while the rise/fall time which is the standard 10-90% data point measurement, on the Samsung looks great, the full 0-100% transition measurement and the overshoot measurements however show that the VA panel here is still slow in the darker transitions and when pushed by overdrive will inevitable lead to some overshoot.

 

The LG display also has a similar issue but trades 10-90% data point transition speed for less overshoot.

[GamingWiidesire]

On 7/14/2020 at 3:38 PM, SolarNova said:

With those speeds, if they are correct, i would expect significant overshoot, especially on the faster OD setting.

A ~2.2ms 0-50% transition without overshoot would be amazing, but i HIGHLY suspect there is actually a good deal amount of overshoot.

 

Below are some examples of a couple of the best VA panel response times from rtings testing.

  Reveal hidden contents

Samsung CHG70

 

LG 32GK850GB

 

It doesn't matter what previous VA were capable of, the G7/G9 use a new generation VA panel.

Here are detailed measurements @120 and 240 Hz, also showing Overshoot:

Source

[SolarNova]

Just now, GamingWiidesire said:

It doesn't matter what previous VA were capable of, the G7/G9 use a new generation VA panel.

Here are detailed measurements @120 and 240 Hz, also showing Overshoot:

 

 

Source

I literally just posted a thread about Hardware unboxed review that has just this hour been released.

Opinions will change based on information available to us.

 

yes this panel is amazingly good for a VA.. .stil ltechnicaly slow on the dark transitions, but amazing non the less. It has its own issues however. Feel free to take a look at the thread i made, i dont want to write it all up again here

 

 

[Sahl]

It looks great on specs, but I simply can´t stand when there is curve on like this.

I also see no reason for the high Hz, I can boost my current 1440p monitor to 165hz, but to be honest, I never use it, I am perfectly fine with 144