Ryzen 7 3700X Running Very Hot Mini-ITX Build

[ComaWell]

Hello,

 

I'm having difficulty keeping the temps on my 3700X under control for my new computer. It is a Mini-ITX build, and I'm not new to Mini-ITX so I understand that temps are never going to be amazing, but I'm concerned that something is causing my CPU to run abnormally hot. Some info about my build:

My case is a SilverStone ML08B-H (so no other case fans)

My mobo is an ASRock X570 Phantom Gaming ITX

My cooler is a Noctua NH-L9i

I'm using the thermal paste that came with the NH-L9i

My GPU is an RTX 2080

I am not overclocking my CPU or GPU, nor do I plan to

 

Currently the CPU idles at about 70C-75C when in the BIOS or Windows, even with the CPU fan speed forced at 100%, and any stress test immediately hikes the CPU to 95C, and it soon-after thermal throttles. At first I thought that maybe it's just a result of there being no case fans, and while that certainly may be the case, I find it odd that my CPU specifically is struggling so hard when my GPU is doing perfectly fine. The cooler is rated to handle 65W CPU's (and that's ignoring the fact that this figure is going off of Intel's specification for a 65 watt TDP rather than AMD's), so I'm suspicious that something else is going on to cause the issue. I did some research and found that some people are talking about my motherboard model possibly drawing extra power for the CPU even without overclocking, but I'm not sure how to validate/fix that. Any ideas anyone has for troubleshooting/reducing my CPU temps would be much appreciated!

[KarathKasun]

Did you put the LNA on the fan?

 

Your motherboard is likely overriding the stock boost limits, running the CPU at ~95w (or more) all the time.  You will likely need to disable boost override and any other "cpu performance boost" type option in the BIOS.

[Vishera]

AMD decided 1.5v is fine with Ryzen 3000 CPUs,

This cause CPUs to get very hot and lower their lifespan but the effect on lifespan is small.

 

Down-volt your CPU if there is a decrease in performance,if there is a decrease in performance increase to voltage a bit.

Check in Cinebench the performance.

[KarathKasun]

2 minutes ago, Vishera said:

AMD decided 1.5v is fine with Ryzen 3000 CPUs,

This cause CPUs to get very hot and lower their lifespan but the effect on lifespan is small.

 

Down-volt your CPU if there is a decrease in performance,if there is a decrease in performance increase to voltage a bit.

Check in Cinebench the performance.

That is not the problem.  The problem is that motherboard vendors are bypassing thermal and boost duration limits with their default settings.  They do the same on Intel boards with Multi Core Enhancement.

[Wolly9102]

29 minutes ago, ComaWell said:

Hello,

 

I'm having difficulty keeping the temps on my 3700X under control for my new computer. It is a Mini-ITX build, and I'm not new to Mini-ITX so I understand that temps are never going to be amazing, but I'm concerned that something is causing my CPU to run abnormally hot. Some info about my build:

My case is a SilverStone ML08B-H (so no other case fans)

My mobo is an ASRock X570 Phantom Gaming ITX

My cooler is a Noctua NH-L9i

I'm using the thermal paste that came with the NH-L9i

My GPU is an RTX 2080

I am not overclocking my CPU or GPU, nor do I plan to

 

Currently the CPU idles at about 70C-75C when in the BIOS or Windows, even with the CPU fan speed forced at 100%, and any stress test immediately hikes the CPU to 95C, and it soon-after thermal throttles. At first I thought that maybe it's just a result of there being no case fans, and while that certainly may be the case, I find it odd that my CPU specifically is struggling so hard when my GPU is doing perfectly fine. The cooler is rated to handle 65W CPU's (and that's ignoring the fact that this figure is going off of Intel's specification for a 65 watt TDP rather than AMD's), so I'm suspicious that something else is going on to cause the issue. I did some research and found that some people are talking about my motherboard model possibly drawing extra power for the CPU even without overclocking, but I'm not sure how to validate/fix that. Any ideas anyone has for troubleshooting/reducing my CPU temps would be much appreciated!

Stupid question but did you read the manual?  

[Vishera]

58 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

That is not the problem.  The problem is that motherboard vendors are bypassing thermal and boost duration limits with their default settings.  They do the same on Intel boards with Multi Core Enhancement.

The 1.5v is a big part of the problem,your argument about motherboard vendors is true and also part of the problem.

[KarathKasun]

1 hour ago, Vishera said:

The 1.5v is a big part of the problem,your argument about motherboard vendors is true and also part of the problem.

1.5v for the milliseconds the chip hits full boost is not going to cause nearly as much heat as holding 1.5v for whole seconds.  The time window difference from "default behavior" to "motherboard butchering power management for benchmark scores" is extreme, and accounts for 95% of the increased total average power.

[GoldenLag]

Check mounting in the cooler. 

 

Can sound like it might be bad contact

[Vishera]

57 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

1.5v for the milliseconds the chip hits full boost is not going to cause nearly as much heat as holding 1.5v for whole seconds.  The time window difference from "default behavior" to "motherboard butchering power management for benchmark scores" is extreme, and accounts for 95% of the increased total average power.

There is something in what you are saying,but even 1.4v outputs a lot of heat.

[schwellmo92]

You could try check that PBO+Auto OC are disabled in BIOS. And also set a mild undervolt like -0.05v. At stock these chips boost to over 100w, there may be some other settings in your BIOS that you can alter the power limits. You could also try using some good thermal paste like kryonaut.

[Princess Luna]

@WoodenMarker Can probably confirm or rebut, but I believe you're simply having insufficient cooling here... tried to stuff too much horse power on such a little package.

 

 A tight little mini-itx case with no air flow and an open air cooled video card dumping heat inside of it while your CPU cooler has a relatively small heatsink, it really doesn't sound unlikely you have too much CPU for too little cooling, a locked i7 8700 ~ i7 9700 might could have been a more appropriated pick.

[Mateyyy]

A really high idle temp could indicate a bad mount, so try checking and remounting the cooler.

[WoodenMarker]

3 hours ago, Princess Luna said:

@WoodenMarker Can probably confirm or rebut, but I believe you're simply having insufficient cooling here... tried to stuff too much horse power on such a little package.

Yeah, the NH-L9i is smaller and worse than the NH-L9a which already struggles with the 3700x. https://tekeverything.com/noctua-nh-l9i-vs-nh-l9a/

 

What have you tried so far?

Does removing the side panel help? You've got some power hungry components and lack of ventilation might be an issue. 

Your temps seem a bit high but not abnormally so considering the cooler, cpu, and case. 

Here's an example with a case that's probably better ventilated: https://pcpartpicker.com/b/2Pr6Mp

[TheVillageIdiot]

Agreed... cpu cooler is not designed for this use/build. If the case had better airflow, gpu not dumping heat directly into the case, and undervolt.

 

Almost all cpu's benefit from running as cool as possible. Intel and Amd measure TDP in different ways. It is always a bad idea to have your cpu cooler tdp at the limits of cpu tdp. You might consider an AIO instead if limited on space for air cpu cooler.

[ComaWell]

Hey guys, sorry for the late reply. I appreciate all the responses!

I'm going to do some more testing later today and post my results (running without side panels, undervolting, remounting the CPU fan, removing any performance boosts the mobo may be pushing)
 

I may just have to give up my dream of running my computer in a case this small, but we'll see. I had assumed that this would be better than my old case (CoolerMaster Elite 130) because it has slightly better ventilation, my CPU has a lower TDP (65watts vs. the 95watts my 7700k had) and the GPU is in a separate chamber (I also chose a blower-style GPU to mitigate the amount of heat it's pushing into the case). But maybe the fact that I can't use an AIO cooler for this case is what's killing me. I'll be back with results soon!

[WoodenMarker]

Just now, ComaWell said:

my CPU has a lower TDP (65watts vs. the 95watts my 7700k had) and the GPU is in a separate chamber (I also chose a blower-style GPU to mitigate the amount of heat it's pushing into the case). But maybe the fact that I can't use an AIO cooler for this case is what's killing me. I'll be back with results soon!

AMD and Intel use TDP to mean different things. It's also not a very accurate spec.

An AIO can fit but only with a short graphics card. You can still fit a larger cooler. The NH-L9i is far from the best that can fit in your case. 

[ComaWell]

Alright, I didn't get time to do as much as I wanted, but I did have some testing done, and here is what I've found:

Re-pasting/re-mounting the cooler and testing with no side panels resulted in 35C-40C idle and 70C-75C in a stress test.
Re-testing with the side panels back in resulted in 50C-60C idle and about 90C-95C in a stress test (with less thermal throttling)
I wasn't able to do very much digging around in the BIOS, but I did change some things that seemed to help a tiny bit, but not much. I'll need to do more BIOS tweaking when I have time.

My conclusion for this is that I must have done a terrible job installing the cooler the first time, but also that the case is definitely the main issue. One odd thing I noticed though, is that any time I entered the BIOS, the CPU would never go below 70C, and this persisted after rebooting into Windows until it arbitrarily starts to cool down. I'm thinking I may try a BIOS update when I can mess with it more, in case there are some bugs in the version it came with.

To answer some questions:

16 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

Did you put the LNA on the fan?

 

Your motherboard is likely overriding the stock boost limits, running the CPU at ~95w (or more) all the time.  You will likely need to disable boost override and any other "cpu performance boost" type option in the BIOS.

I didn't use the LNA; I figured that would hurt temps and I don't really mind the noise anyways. I agree with you about the second point, I did notice that the power draw for the CPU was far above 65watts during stress tests (though I understand that the TDP is not an ironclad declaration of what the CPU will pull)

16 hours ago, Wolly9102 said:

Stupid question but did you read the manual?

My cooler didn't come with any protective film on it, though you made my heart skip a beat when I read that lol. I double-checked when I re-mounted, so it's all good there.

You're all probably right about the voltage being too high. I'll try undervolting later on to see how much it helps (I'm fine with losing a small amount of performance; I just want my temps to be manageable)

7 hours ago, TheVillageIdiot said:

Agreed... cpu cooler is not designed for this use/build. If the case had better airflow, gpu not dumping heat directly into the case, and undervolt.

 

Almost all cpu's benefit from running as cool as possible. Intel and Amd measure TDP in different ways. It is always a bad idea to have your cpu cooler tdp at the limits of cpu tdp. You might consider an AIO instead if limited on space for air cpu cooler.

If a low-profile CPU cooler was not designed for a Mini-ITX build, I would ask then what was it built for? I understand that AMD and Intel measure TDP differently, however from my understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong), Intel measures their rated TDP based on the CPU's power draw without any turbo-ing, whereas AMD measures TDP based on the CPU's power draw while in a sustained boost (sources, though I can't vouch for their accuracy: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/280364-why-intel-tdp-measurements-dont-reflect-real-world-power-draw https://www.howtogeek.com/438898/what-is-tdp-for-cpus-and-gpus/). With that in mind, wouldn't that indicate (to grossly over-simplify) that a 65watt TDP AMD CPU would, if anything, draw less power than a 65watt TDP Intel CPU while under load? It may just be that it isn't adequate, but I disagree that it's an AMD vs. Intel thing

4 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

An AIO can fit but only with a short graphics card. You can still fit a larger cooler. The NH-L9i is far from the best that can fit in your case. 

From what you're saying, I'm assuming you mean to use an AIO I would mount the radiator in the extra space given from the short graphics card? The problem with that is that the GPU chamber is separate from the rest of the components, with only a small hole for feeding cables to the GPU to power it. In order to feed the tubing from an AIO through that hole I would need to be able to squeeze either the radiator or CPU block through it, and it's not nearly big enough for that. If you know of a better cooler that would fit in the 58mm cooler height allowance I would love to hear it, but an AIO wouldn't work.

I'll let you guys know if I have anymore meaningful results from further BIOS tweaking!

[WoodenMarker]

58 minutes ago, ComaWell said:

With that in mind, wouldn't that indicate (to grossly over-simplify) that a 65watt TDP AMD CPU would, if anything, draw less power than a 65watt TDP Intel CPU while under load? It may just be that it isn't adequate, but I disagree that it's an AMD vs. Intel thing

Yeah, pretty much. From your results, it seems like the issue is lack of case airflow. A beefier cooler may compensate for that.

Quote

From what you're saying, I'm assuming you mean to use an AIO I would mount the radiator in the extra space given from the short graphics card? The problem with that is that the GPU chamber is separate from the rest of the components, with only a small hole for feeding cables to the GPU to power it. In order to feed the tubing from an AIO through that hole I would need to be able to squeeze either the radiator or CPU block through it, and it's not nearly big enough for that. If you know of a better cooler that would fit in the 58mm cooler height allowance I would love to hear it, but an AIO wouldn't work.

My bad, I had underestimated the amount of modding needed to fit an AIO in the case but there are some examples of it being done online in the RVZ02 which is nearly identical. 

Where are you shopping / located? Budget?

[ComaWell]

57 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

Where are you shopping / located? Budget?

 

I'm located in Michigan. I buy most things from Newegg but I'm not afraid to shop elsewhere. I'm not concerned about budget if it will lead to better cooling. And wow, the Raven does look very similar. I've never modded a case before but I'm willing to give it a try so long as I have the tools lol. The other issue with my setup (particularly my motherboard's fault), is that there is very little space for a CPU cooler at all. The NH-L9i barely fits between the ram slots, IO shield, and chipset fan

[WoodenMarker]

10 minutes ago, ComaWell said:

I'm located in Michigan. I buy most things from Newegg but I'm not afraid to shop elsewhere. I'm not concerned about budget if it will lead to better cooling. And wow, the Raven does look very similar. I've never modded a case before but I'm willing to give it a try so long as I have the tools lol. The other issue with my setup (particularly my motherboard's fault), is that there is very little space for a CPU cooler at all. The NH-L9i barely fits between the ram slots, IO shield, and chipset fan

Unless you already have a small itx card, I wouldn't recommend trying to fit an AIO.

If you do, you can probably get the job done with a dremel and drill. Some modding examples:

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/912604-silverstone-rvz02-mod-to-fit-120mm-aio-cooler/

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/902868-cramming-acceptable-cooling-into-an-ml08/

https://www.overclock.net/forum/50-small-form-factor-systems/1595110-build-log-hyperion-mk-iii-silverstone-ml08-build.html

 

Most of the larger downdraft coolers hang over the ram. What ram are you using?

[ComaWell]

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

Unless you already have a small itx card, I wouldn't recommend trying to fit an AIO.

Most of the larger downdraft coolers hang over the ram. What ram are you using?

That's fair, I didn't think about the fact that I don't have a small graphics card lol. I'm using Trident Z Neo ram, so not the best in terms of height clearance

Edit: After some more digging in the BIOS, I found that I can override the thermal throttle limit to prevent my CPU from going over a certain temp. It's not a perfect solution, but at least it means I can use my computer safely while looking for a more permanent solution.

[WoodenMarker]

1 hour ago, ComaWell said:

That's fair, I didn't think about the fact that I don't have a small graphics card lol. I'm using Trident Z Neo ram, so not the best in terms of height clearance

That's a bit too tall to fit under the IS-60 V3 with a 25mm thick fan like here :https://pcpartpicker.com/b/MdD2FT

With the actual clearance available of 65mm, I'd recommend a SRLP with a NF-A12x15 instead which should completely clear the ram. 

https://www.newegg.com/be-quiet-shadow-rock-lp-bk002/p/13C-001F-00006?Description=shadow rock lp &cm_re=shadow_rock_lp-_-9SIA68V2TR2312-_-Product

https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nf-a12x15-pwm-case-fan/p/1YF-000T-00091

[ComaWell]

16 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

With the actual clearance available of 65mm, I'd recommend a SRLP with a NF-A12x15 instead which should completely clear the ram. 

https://www.newegg.com/be-quiet-shadow-rock-lp-bk002/p/13C-001F-00006?Description=shadow rock lp &cm_re=shadow_rock_lp-_-9SIA68V2TR2312-_-Product

https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nf-a12x15-pwm-case-fan/p/1YF-000T-00091

Ooh, very nice find, I'm sold! I'll let you know how it turns out, thanks a bunch for your time!

[TheVillageIdiot]

It is neat looking case but without active airflow or aio the heat will be a struggle.

 

TDP is often a confused mess. Intel's way, Amd's way, and cpu coolers way/  

 

Props for trying to stuff an 3700x and 2080 into that case but what else did you expect ? No active airflow

[WoodenMarker]

13 minutes ago, TheVillageIdiot said:

TDP is often a confused mess. Intel's way, Amd's way, and cpu coolers way/  

TDP is ultimately about cooling and not power draw so it's all the same thing. The only problem is when people don't differentiate between watts for cooling and watts for power draw.