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WelshDdraig

Intel decides to contribute its Thunderbolt 3 standard to the USB Promoter Group. Will this be the new USB 4?

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4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Oh nice. So it turns out this is the USB4 specification. I erad the OP and was under the impression that it was just a rumor/speculation at this point.

Anandtech: USB4 Specification Announced: Adopting Thunderbolt 3 Protocol for 40 Gbps USB

 

It won't be fully finalized until the middle of 2019, but the features already agreed upon are USB-C for the interface, backwards compatibility with USB 2.0, 3.2 and TB3 interfaces, 40Gbps support, power delivery and some display protocols.

I wanted the op to get updated, and it sucks media outlets are already confusing things up.

 

USB4 is Type C only with a new 40Gbps protocol, that also supports backwards compatibility with USB 3.2, USB 2.0 and TB3


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14 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

USB4 is Type C only with a new 40Gbps protocol, that also supports backwards compatibility with USB 3.2, USB 2.0 and TB3

That perfectly describes TB3 though.


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18 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

I wanted the op to get updated, and it sucks media outlets are already confusing things up.

USB4 is Type C only with a new 40Gbps protocol, that also supports backwards compatibility with USB 3.2, USB 2.0 and TB3

oh so it's not technically the same protocol with thunderbolt 3? o_o (i.e. not based on PCIe and not requiring current thunderbolt controllers?)

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6 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That perfectly describes TB3 though.

Read the official press release

2 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

oh so it's not technically the same protocol with thunderbolt 3? o_o (i.e. not based on PCIe and not requiring current thunderbolt controllers?)

Ya according to USB-IF it's a new protocol with support for TB3


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6 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

Read the official press release

 

16 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That perfectly describes TB3 though.

 


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3 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

Ya according to USB-IF it's a new protocol with support for TB3

oh okay so USB something with thunderbolt still on alt-mode basis o_o

although the press release itself wasn't... exactly clear as well?

Quote

The USB4 architecture is based on the Thunderbolt™ protocol specification recently contributed by Intel Corporation. It doubles the bandwidth of USB and enables multiple simultaneous data and display protocols.

like based-on but is it exactly PCIe or just overclocked USB

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Just now, VegetableStu said:

oh okay so USB something with thunderbolt still on alt-mode basis o_o

Which would be, wait for it, Thunderbolt 3.

 

1 minute ago, VegetableStu said:

like based-on but is it exactly PCIe or just overclocked USB

Thunderbolt 3 is just a chipset and protocol combining USB, PCIe 3.0 x2 or x4, and maybe display port, with hotswap and daisychain functionality and 100W power delivery.


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7 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Thunderbolt 3 is just a chipset and protocol combining USB, PCIe 3.0 x2 or x4, and maybe display port, with hotswap and daisychain functionality and 100W power delivery.

oh huh I just learned the thunderbolt controllers itself contain USB3 controllers o_o (with the USB 2.0 fallback still required from the host separately)

 

late-2017-imac-pro-system-block-diagram.

 

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2 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

oh huh I just learned the thunderbolt controllers itself contain USB3 controllers o_o

Which are still backwards compatible with USB 2.0.

 

2 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

(with the USB 2.0 fallback still required from the host separately)

That's true of machines lacking TB3 as well. Keeping a separate controller for peripherals helps avoid bandwidth, lag, and fringe compatibility issues.


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50 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Which would be, wait for it, Thunderbolt 3.

 

Thunderbolt 3 is just a chipset and protocol combining USB, PCIe 3.0 x2 or x4, and maybe display port, with hotswap and daisychain functionality and 100W power delivery.

 

USB4 had two 40Gbps protocols one is USB4 the other is TB3, I don't see how that is the same as TB3. Also USB4 is not PCIe based.

 

EDIT:

https://usb.org/sites/default/files/2019-03/USB_PG_USB4_DevUpdate_Announcement_FINAL_20190226.pdf

 

Quote

Even as the USB4 specification introduces a new underlying protocol, compatibility with existing USB 3.2, USB 2.0 and Thunderbolt 3 hosts and devices is supported; the resulting connection scales to the best mutual capability of the devices being connected. 

 

Quote

 

Key characteristics of the USB4 solution include:

  • Two-lane operation using existing USB Type-C cables and up to 40 Gbps operation over 40 Gbps certified cables
  • Multiple data and display protocols to efficiently share the total available bandwidth over the bus
  • Backward compatibility with USB 3.2, USB 2.0 and Thunderbolt 3

 

 

TB3 is a 4 lane protocol not 2, TB3 is not now being introduced as a new protocol. I don't see how USB4 is TB3, based on TB3, or is similar to TB3 besides bandwidth.

 

Its like saying 40Gb QSFP is the same as TB3.


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21 hours ago, WelshDdraig said:

In a shocking and (somewhat) unexpected move,

Quote

0114A8E3-3F46-402C-A7A9-5B113011903F.jpeg.4239676d0ec67829428364edf4f714c4.jpeg

I see what u did there


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6 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

I guess we could wait for their developer days thing on 2H this year to find out more o_o

Maybe they can explain why this isn't just an updated TB3 controller running 3.2 2x2.


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So, it's not from Intel's good will, but to screw AMD because it'll be an on-CPU (Intel only apparently) thing for which there will not be any external support for quite some time until thing can be integrated into chipsets or just made by 3rd party or via licensing...

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Bringing the speed increase, being Type-C only for obvious reasons and named USB4 resolves a ton of mess lately with namings/renaming we've seen with 3.x genX nonsense. To add even older connector mixed. So good, let type A die already. 

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1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

So, it's not from Intel's good will, but to screw AMD because it'll be an on-CPU (Intel only apparently) thing for which there will not be any external support for quite some time until thing can be integrated into chipsets or just made by 3rd party or via licensing...

What?

AMD can add USB standards to there CPUs and chipsets, and Intel opened TB3 and made it royalty free last year.


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2 hours ago, The Benjamins said:

What?

AMD can add USB standards to there CPUs and chipsets, and Intel opened TB3 and made it royalty free last year.

 

The point is they're not going to be able to do it before zen2 arrives, so they won;t have support till Zen 3 most likely. Whereas intel will get it with ice lake late this year/early next.

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1 hour ago, CarlBar said:

 

The point is they're not going to be able to do it before zen2 arrives, so they won;t have support till Zen 3 most likely. Whereas intel will get it with ice lake late this year/early next.

Well it can't be on die, or x570 chipset, but it doesn't mean a motherboard OEM can't have a USB chipset on the board that is attached to the CPU or x570 chipset.

 

Also zen 2 is rumored for second half of 2019 and USB4 is also, AMD is a USB-IF partner so they could in theory have USB4 if it came out at around the same time.

 

But all this is more timing of product releases then intel locking it away.


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4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

So, it's not from Intel's good will, but to screw AMD because it'll be an on-CPU (Intel only apparently) thing for which there will not be any external support for quite some time until thing can be integrated into chipsets or just made by 3rd party or via licensing...

It doesnt screw AMD, this is the only chance AMD had at getting thunderbolt, intel was never going to license it to them. Also, as it is the basis for USB 4.0 plenty of chipsets will be available and I'm sure lots that are just TB3 are in development right now. Intel announced this move in 2017.


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Well, even if it wasn't for Intel's "charity", USB 4.0 would happen one way or another. They are just adopting an existing faster standard used by some and using it under USB standard now.

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4 hours ago, The Benjamins said:

Well it can't be on die, or x570 chipset, but it doesn't mean a motherboard OEM can't have a USB chipset on the board that is attached to the CPU or x570 chipset.

 

Also zen 2 is rumored for second half of 2019 and USB4 is also, AMD is a USB-IF partner so they could in theory have USB4 if it came out at around the same time.

 

But all this is more timing of product releases then intel locking it away.

 

Yeah but those addon chipsets will have to be developed. Thats going to take time. I strongly doubt they'll be ready before zen 3.

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On 3/5/2019 at 7:46 AM, RejZoR said:

So, it's not from Intel's good will, but to screw AMD because it'll be an on-CPU (Intel only apparently) thing for which there will not be any external support for quite some time until thing can be integrated into chipsets or just made by 3rd party or via licensing...

Every company leverages their strengths, I would expect nothing less.  It would be dumb of Intel not to capitalize on their own protocol.

On 3/5/2019 at 11:11 AM, CarlBar said:

The point is they're not going to be able to do it before zen2 arrives, so they won;t have support till Zen 3 most likely. Whereas intel will get it with ice lake late this year/early next.

Depends on when the third party controllers start showing up, and you know they're already working on them even while the USB4 standard is still being written.  It probably won't be on the upcoming 500 series of boards, but it could be added to future revisions of them (much like AM3+ boards saw USB3 added after the fact).

On 3/5/2019 at 12:15 PM, The Benjamins said:

Well it can't be on die, or x570 chipset, but it doesn't mean a motherboard OEM can't have a USB chipset on the board that is attached to the CPU or x570 chipset.

Exactly.

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