Confused by the steam subscriber agreement.

[werto165]

"IF YOU ARE AN EU SUBSCRIBER, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO WITHDRAW FROM A PURCHASE TRANSACTION FOR DIGITAL CONTENT WITHOUT CHARGE AND WITHOUT GIVING ANY REASON FOR A DURATION OF FOURTEEN DAYS OR UNTIL VALVE’S PERFORMANCE OF ITS OBLIGATIONS HAS BEGUN WITH YOUR PRIOR EXPRESS CONSENT AND YOUR ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT YOU THEREBY LOSE YOUR RIGHT OF WITHDRAWAL, WHICHEVER HAPPENS SOONER. THEREFORE, YOU WILL BE INFORMED DURING THE CHECKOUT PROCESS WHEN OUR PERFORMANCE STARTS AND ASKED TO PROVIDE YOUR PRIOR EXPRESS CONSENT TO THE PURCHASE BEING FINAL."

 

But when you go to buy a game it says-

 

"By clicking "Purchase" you agree that Valve provides you immediate access to digital content as soon as you complete your purchase, without waiting the 14-day withdrawal period. Therefore, you expressly waive your right to withdraw from this purchase."

 

So as soon as you buy the product do you lose your rights to withdraw from the purchase or not? They word it in such a way that it's totally ambiguous, could some shine some light on the situation, because I'm being stupid as hell... 

 

What the hell valve is it refundable or not???

[manikyath]

i think they need to do it like this to stay within legal bounds.

 

they are required to give the 14day period (hence license agreement) unless they do that thing on the buy button.

[Toddwjp]

there still working on it i think

[Jade]

It's not refundable. They're giving you access to the game the moment is completed, meaning you no longer have the rights to withdraw after it shows up in the library.

 

Valve's performance of obligations is giving you access to a game; once that's completed, their obligations are complete.

[typographie]

What the hell valve is it refundable or not???

 

It sounds like an oversight that needs to be corrected. I don't think corporations can ask you to waive this right under EU law, or else Valve could've slipped through that whole lawsuit just by including that message.

 

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/330280-valve-did-not-just-give-everyone-in-the-eu-a-chance-for-game-refunds/#entry4483665

I stand corrected, I think.

[werto165]

It's not refundable. They're giving you access to the game the moment is completed, meaning you no longer have the rights to withdraw after it shows up in the library.

So they offer "refunds" however as soon as they make a single dime they just are like nope, nope, nope. Would this just apply to things such as: if you bought a game that didn't go into your library but was being held in your inventory?

[Geekazoid]

I assume this is to prevent someone from purchasing a game, receiving it and then withdrawing from the purchase which ultimately would mean you'd get the game for free, which would not be legal. I may be wrong, but this is just my 2¢ on it.

[Jade]

So they offer "refunds" however as soon as they make a single dime they just are like nope, nope, nope. Would this just apply to things such as: if you bought a game that didn't go into your library but was being held in your inventory. 

No idea. I don't live in the EU, I just have understanding of it in general. Either way;

But downloaded items cannot be "returned",

its like you buy a movie and download it, then ask for a refund for whatever reason, and the movie is still on your computer.. so.. now what .. have you stolen it? do you have to delete it? etc

 

I assume this is to prevent someone from purchasing a game, receiving it and then withdrawing from the purchase which ultimately would mean you'd get the game for free which would not be legal. I may be wrong, but this just my 2¢ on it.

Mostly right. More accurately, it's purchasing a game, downloading it, then refunding. Tracking downloads per user on the scale of Steam is relatively difficult unless we're going back to the age of always-connected CD Keys.

[werto165]

No idea. I don't live in the EU, I just have understanding of it in general. Either way;

 

 

Mostly right. More accurately, it's purchasing a game, downloading it, then refunding. Tracking downloads per user on the scale of Steam is relatively difficult unless we're going back to the age of always-connected CD Keys.

Surely if you've not played the game at all in the 14 day window you're entitled to a refund. I guess they're covering their asses if someone finds a way to exploit it, eg playing the game without valves knowledge. 

[Jade]

Surely if you've not played the game at all in the 14 day window you're entitled to a refund. I guess they're covering their asses if someone finds a way to exploit it, eg playing the game without valves knowledge. 

Nope. Like @ShadowCaptain said, digital goods are not refundable once they've been acquired. If they could, pirates would pay for it, crack it, and upload it, then get their money back; paying nothing to release, which would also enable them to release more cracks for more games.

[NeverNotExhausted]

From a legal standpoint, waiving the agreement will mean the 14 day return policy will be void and null. Though the EU legal system as I understand it will give more bias to the consumer and less bias to a clause in contract the tries to purposefully tries to bypass laws that they set out. I'm no expert in the EU legal system though so please take my advice with a cup sized pinch of salt.

[Tacitus]

So they offer "refunds" however as soon as they make a single dime they just are like nope, nope, nope. Would this just apply to things such as: if you bought a game that didn't go into your library but was being held in your inventory?

 

At the point of purchase they make you tick a box saying you understand that by purchasing it you waive your right to a refund, essentially.

 

It's just a piece of underhanded legal maneuvering.

[werto165]

Nope. Like @ShadowCaptain said, digital goods are not refundable once they've been acquired. If they could, pirates would pay for it, crack it, and upload it, then get their money back; paying nothing to release, which would also enable them to release more cracks for more games.

How do EA offer refunds then through their origin service? If EA can do it, why not valve? 

[ShadowCaptain]

Nope. Like @ShadowCaptain said, digital goods are not refundable once they've been acquired. If they could, pirates would pay for it, crack it, and upload it, then get their money back; paying nothing to release, which would also enable them to release more cracks for more games.

 

Exactly this, digital media is a very very complicated matter, letting people download and rip the contents onto their hard drive before asking for a refund is just enabling pirates

 

I think a 24 hour period to return the game providing a download has not been started a fair system

 

 

How do EA offer refunds then through their origin service? If EA can do it, why not valve? 

 

 

because EA only refund EA games, through their service

 

Steam offer games through other people, that means, you buy a Ubisoft game on Steam, your money goes to Ubisoft.. if steam issue a refund, they have to get the money from Ubisoft

 

EA only have themselves to worry about

 

Its possible some publishers and devs will NOT issue a refund, valve cannot afford to refund your money out of their own pocket every time

[Jade]

At the point of purchase they make you tick a box saying you understand that by purchasing it you waive your right to a refund, essentially.

 

It's just a piece of underhanded legal maneuvering.

Hardly underhanded. It's covering their own asses. Don't get me wrong, I don't like it, it doesn't really affect me, so I'm not bias (nor do I endorse the practice of pay, play, refund), but they have to do this to protect themselves financially.

 

How do EA offer refunds then through their origin service? If EA can do it, why not valve? 

Because EA only offers EA published games. Valve offers tens of thousands of games on their market and has arguably the biggest base of gamers.

[Tacitus]

Hardly underhanded. It's covering their own asses. Don't get me wrong, I don't like it, it doesn't really affect me, so I'm not bias (nor do I endorse the practice of pay, play, refund), but they have to do this to protect themselves financially.

 

There can be a fine line between ass-covering and being underhanded, the ToS are far from clear, as is evident by the creation of this thread. The black-and-white view of there either being refunds or not is an anachronistic way of thinking. They could easily allow for refunds within 3 hours of in-game time or 14 days, whichever comes sooner, that offers a degree of consumer protection without opening the door to exploitation by buy, play, refund.

 

EDIT: my 3-hour in game time thing is just an example of one possible way of achieving consumer protection without exploit and is just my view of a better way of conducting business.

[werto165]

Because EA only offers EA published games. Valve offers tens of thousands of games on their market and has arguably the biggest base of gamers.

Because EA sold more than just their games, I assumed wrongly that they offered refunds on all games sold through their service. But looking into it : 

 

So I guess it's up to the Dev's then, I'm surprised that EA can do this right whereas steam are not. I'm sure that they could do it with their games, maybe it's just not in their plans who knows. 

[Jade]

Because EA sold more than just their games, I assumed wrongly that they offered refunds on all games sold through their service. But looking into it : 

So I guess it's up to the Dev's then, I'm surprised that EA can do this right whereas steam are not. I'm sure that they could do it with their games, maybe it's just not in their plans who knows. 

Check out their net worths. EA is easily worth more than Valve and they publish major releases (Battlefield? Dragon Age? etc.) across multiple platforms, giving them more access to money. I know there are releases of Valve games on Xbox and whatnot, but they never did incredibly well and they're nothing like the PC counterparts.

 

There can be a fine line between ass-covering and being underhanded, the ToS are far from clear, as is evident by the creation of this thread. The black-and-white view of there either being refunds or not is an anachronistic way of thinking. They could easily allow for refunds within 3 hours of in-game time or 14 days, whichever comes sooner, that offers a degree of consumer protection without opening the door to exploitation by buy, play, refund.

 

EDIT: my 3-hour in game time thing is just an example of one possible way of achieving consumer protection without exploit and is just my view of a better way of conducting business.

Right, but this still enables pirates. That's the glaring issue in refunds.

[werto165]

Anyway thanks for the answers guys, it's certainly cleared it up. I thought it was the worst case scenario but I just wanted to be 100% certain about it. I was caught by the sensationalist headlines which said "Steam to offer 14 day refunds" which was clearly not the case. 

[Tacitus]

Right, but this still enables pirates. That's the glaring issue in refunds.

 

How precisely does this enable pirates exactly? I must be missing something, though I'd add the current mechanisms haven't stopped piracy.

[Jade]

How precisely does this enable pirates exactly? I must be missing something, though I'd add the current mechanisms haven't stopped piracy.

You don't have to particularly play a game to crack it. Just have to launch it and keep reverse engineering the DRM, so assuming they keep the game open for testing <1hr, they could pay, crack, refund, release, putting them out no money at all. Someone has to pay for a copy in order to crack it, and it's usually people like SKiDROW.

[SuperPug]

So they offer "refunds" however as soon as they make a single dime they just are like nope, nope, nope. Would this just apply to things such as: if you bought a game that didn't go into your library but was being held in your inventory?

 

The 14-day return policy is part of EU law and applies to Steam (even tho it probably shouldn't - legislation as always lacking behind). So Valve makes you waive the right for refund on purchase.

This whole thing makes more sense in a scenario with physical copies where you're allowed to return the purchased game within 14 days (most likely in unopened condition) which obviously doesn't work with Steam purchases.

[Tacitus]

You don't have to particularly play a game to crack it. Just have to launch it and keep reverse engineering the DRM, so assuming they keep the game open for testing <1hr, they could pay, crack, refund, release, putting them out no money at all. Someone has to pay for a copy in order to crack it, and it's usually people like SKiDROW.

 

As I mentioned though, the inability to refund hasn't prevented this, as you yourself said, it only takes one copy to make a crack.

[Jade]

As I mentioned though, the inability to refund hasn't prevented this, as you yourself said, it only takes one copy to make a crack.

That's still one more sale than they'd get if it were refunded.

[Tacitus]

That's still one more sale than they'd get if it were refunded.

 

In an industry looking to sell hundreds of thousands, if not millions of units, a single copy is a drop in the ocean.