Cool video from JayzTwoCents on CPUs

[7850OC]

AMD vs Intel  :rolleyes:

 

[Guest]

Yay its amd vs intel time again

 

Wait we are on the internet....damn it.

 

Prepare yourselves the flame wars are coming....

[Icecube26]

not this again.... sigh....

[Speedbird]

I worked at CPU....

[Scionyde]

For a second, I thought it was going to be a video where AMD and Intel employees play each other at Battlefield 4.

 

*sigh*

[Jack.EXE]

Frankly, I love Intel for their work in getting x86 into smaller and smaller spaces, and AMD for at least trying to advance the market, rather than game the existing one.

and when it comes to gaming, at anything higher than 640x480 you'll be GPU bound anyway.

I think I have a post on this.

It simply doesn't matter, buy what suits your needs, whether more cores (like me) or fewer, more powerful ones.

For a second, I thought it was going to be a video where AMD and Intel employees play each other at Battlefield 4.

*sigh*

Are you kidding? I'd love to see this, Like architecture devs making up a team on each side, with a modded BF4 to be AMD vs Intel rather than CN VS RU

[vm'N]

and when it comes to gaming, at anything higher than 640x480 you'll be GPU bound anyway.

You can easily be CPU bound at any resolution. Have enough objects, play around with a lot of ligtings, and the CPU will be overloading with tons of DRAW-calls, which effectively creates a bottleneck.

[patrickjp93]

You can easily be CPU bound at any resolution. Have enough objects, play around with a lot of ligtings, and the CPU will be overloading with tons of DRAW-calls, which effectively creates a bottleneck.

The only reason you could require that many draw calls is if you just plain suck at coding. There's no GPU existing which can actually outpace a MODERN (post-2008) quad-core CPU's ability to feed it if the instructions are done properly. Take a simple OpenCL example for instance. Say I read in a huge wad of text and want to toggle a bunch of chosen characters in that block of text. If you keep sending the whole block for each character, yeah, you'll bottleneck, but you'd have to be an idiot to cause that. LOOPS! SEMAFORES! LOCKS!

 

Game programmers are morons for the most part, and engine programmers are only just starting to get it. BF4 can be rewritten for 2 cores and run just as fast if you offload the AI to the GPU, and you could still get 60 fps on a mild overclock with the GTX 660 (I speak from having disassembled the code via objdump and then decompiling it with Intel's Parallel Studio. You wouldn't believe how stupidly that thing was coded. Our heterogeneous class had a field day optimizing it for our semester project).

[vm'N]

The only reason you could require that many draw calls is if you just plain suck at coding.

You clearly ignored half what I said.

Alot of objects, and if you play around with lightings, you will experience a huge increase of the amount of drawcalls, as a single object, can easily require many drawcalls due to different materials. (not talking about ingame configuration, but rather game developement decision)

 

There's no GPU existing which can actually outpace a CPU's ability to feed it if the instructions are done properly.

With this, there are no hardware bottleneck, only software bottlenecks. Is this your point?

 

Take a simple OpenCL example for instance. Say I read in a huge wad of text and want to toggle a bunch of chosen characters in that block of text. If you keep sending the whole block for each character, yeah, you'll bottleneck, but you'd have to be an idiot to cause that. LOOPS! SEMAFORES! LOCKS!

Again, your points are based on an entire different situation, than the one I was trying to put out. On simpler objects, with predictable behavious, and controlled environment, you can easily do as you proposed. This is not doable in every situation, sadly.

 

Game programmers are morons for the most part, and engine programmers are only just starting to get it. BF4 can be rewritten for 2 cores and run just as fast if you offload the AI to the GPU, and you could still get 60 fps on a mild overclock with the GTX 660 (I speak from having disassembled the code via objdump and then decompiling it with Intel's Parallel Studio. You wouldn't believe how stupidly that thing was coded. Our heterogeneous class had a field day optimizing it for our semester project).

The real problem is the system it is all build on. The nature of gaming software simply conflicts with our system.

Software is the biggest limitation of our hardware.

BF4 is a terrible game overall. BF2 and BF3 was much better designed.

[patrickjp93]

You clearly ignored half what I said.

Alot of objects, and if you play around with lightings, you will experience a huge increase of the amount of drawcalls, as a single object, can easily require many drawcalls due to different materials. (not talking about ingame configuration, but rather game developement decision)

With this, there are no hardware bottleneck, only software bottlenecks. Is this your point?

Again, your points are based on an entire different situation, than the one I was trying to put out. On simpler objects, with predictable behavious, and controlled environment, you can easily do as you proposed. This is not doable in every situation, sadly.

The real problem is the system it is all build on. The nature of gaming software simply conflicts with our system.

Software is the biggest limitation of our hardware.

BF4 is a terrible game overall. BF2 and BF3 was much better designed.

Lighting is easy. A lot of objects makes little difference other than the number of compute blocks in play. Hell that was the majority of optimizing we did. Lighting boils down to 3 equations, the results of which are lightweight computations.

With modern tech, there's no hardware bottleneck, just bad programmers. The one exception may be uncompressed textures, but you'd have to be an idiot to use them and take up that much VRAM. Furthermore, you'd have to be even dumber to not assign a couple permanent compute blocks to hold the textures in cache/private memory and leave the calculations to the majority of the GPU. Memory management and parallelism are the two things game programmers most suck at.

[vm'N]

Lighting is easy. A lot of objects makes little difference other than the number of compute blocks in play. Hell that was the majority of optimizing we did. Lighting boils down to 3 equations, the results of which are lightweight computations.

With modern tech, there's no hardware bottleneck, just bad programmers. The one exception may be uncompressed textures, but you'd have to be an idiot to use them and take up that much VRAM. Furthermore, you'd have to be even dumber to not assign a couple permanent compute blocks to hold the textures in cache/private memory and leave the calculations to the majority of the GPU. Memory management and parallelism are the two things game programmers most suck at.

Lighting can tax a system. Lighting have been a big issue. Real time lighting is heavily CPU bounded. Each time a lighting bound on a object, you just coursed another DRAW-call.

This is some of the decision, developers have to make. To exclude more advance lighting, and instead place in less advanced lighting.

Constructing is easy. It is about the constant changes the object will get. Most of them will be rather unpredictable (due to the nature of games)

[LukaP]

Lighting can tax a system. Lighting have been a big issue. Real time lighting is heavily CPU bounded. Each time a lighting bound on a object, you just coursed another DRAW-call.

This is some of the decision, developers have to make. To exclude more advance lighting, and instead place in less advanced lighting.

Constructing is easy. It is about the constant changes the object will get. Most of them will be rather unpredictable (due to the nature of games)

dont bother. he is a troll that knows a few words and then goes shitting on everyone... youre the one speaking sense here, he is oversimplifying everything (coming from a game developer, as well as a physics student, light is taxing)

[Faceman]

Back to the Video...

 

Jay is wrong.  This is the 2nd video I have seen of his that has very wrong content, he is turning from respected reviewer to not-so-respected.

[LukaP]

Back to the Video...

 

Jay is wrong.  This is the 2nd video I have seen of his that has very wrong content, he is turning from respected reviewer to not-so-respected.

whats the premise of it? and the conclusion? i refuse to watch random videos on principle, just to not support someone throwing bullmanure around

[Faceman]

whats the premise of it? and the conclusion? i refuse to watch random videos on principle, just to not support someone throwing bullmanure around

It was a video about VRAM, but Jay has no understanding on what VRAM is.  He was misinterpreting the frequency for the video RAM amount.  Total idiotic move from him, made me loose respect.  And now this video...  saying AMD works just fine for all scenarios.  It just doesn't.  It bottlenecks high end GPUs, and it is impossible to play MMOs and a lot of other single threaded games on AMD.

[LukaP]

It was a video about VRAM, but Jay has no understanding on what VRAM is.  He was misinterpreting the frequency for the video RAM amount.  Total idiotic move from him, made me loose respect.  And now this video...  saying AMD works just fine for all scenarios.  It just doesn't.  It bottlenecks high end GPUs, and it is impossible to play MMOs and a lot of other single threaded games on AMD.

and even multithreaded tasks arent fast since it lacks 4 FPUs (in the 8c desing) and most rendering is done on FPUs

 

@JayzTwoCents dude, if what @Faceman is saying be true, you dun goof'd man

[Faceman]

@LukaP

 

[LukaP]

@LukaP

 

https://www.youtube.com/wat

nyeh, dont feel like giving views to badly researched videos. i will check it if a real debate starts brewing

[Faceman]

nyeh, dont feel like giving views to badly researched videos. i will check it if a real debate starts brewing

You need to view the video in order to develop your own idea about the subject matter. But yea, it seems like he mistook VRAM for Memory frequency. VRAM cannot be increased, or overclocked.  There is a set amount.  He keeps talking about increasing the VRAM.  He needed to differentiate between VRAM and Memory frequency.

[LukaP]

You need to view the video in order to develop your own idea about the subject matter. 

well so far i decided to believe you if someone provides a counter argument, i will go watch, so i can establish my own view on it. so far, i genuinly dont care enough

[Sintezza]

  saying AMD works just fine for all scenarios.  It just doesn't.  It bottlenecks high end GPUs, and it is impossible to play MMOs and a lot of other single threaded games on AMD.

 

You are spitting allot of miss-information here.

Every game can be played on AMD even MMO´s.

That the game runs better on a intel chip, because of the single threaded performance yeah sure.

And that in those games, the gpu get hold back because of that.. true.

 

But this does not mean that those games are "impossible" to play.

Because thats just the biggest load of bullshit i have ever readed.

 

In the end it just depends on what kind of games you wanne play mainaly.

Because the world of gaming, just not only exists for MMO´s

 

Thats why i allways ask, which games someone likes to play.

Then i know which cpu i have to recommend.

 

Im not biassed to wards intel or amd.

[7850OC]

You need to view the video in order to develop your own idea about the subject matter. But yea, it seems like he mistook VRAM for Memory frequency. VRAM cannot be increased, or overclocked.  There is a set amount.  He keeps talking about increasing the VRAM.  He needed to differentiate between VRAM and Memory frequency.

 

i am pretty sure Vram "can be overclocked" friend lol  :lol:

 

i did it, and i think at least 50% people here have did it also 

 

apu also use the normal ram "as a Vram", and this can be also increment friend  :rolleyes:

 

- - - - 

 

another way to increment Vram, is buying "a new card with more Vram" lol (and this is what he is saying)

 

you really are misunderstanding what he said (in a big way)

 

not sure why  <_<

[Faceman]

 

i am pretty sure Vram "can be overclocked" friend lol  :lol:

 

i did it, and i think at least 50% people here have did it also 

 

apu also use the normal ram "as a Vram", and this can be also increment friend  :rolleyes:

 

- - - - 

 

another way to increment Vram, is buying "a new card with more Vram" lol (and this is what he is saying)

 

you really are misunderstanding what he said (in a big way)

 

not sure why  <_<

 

VRAM and Memory frequency are two different things.

 

I overclock my memory frequency, not my VRAM.

[patrickjp93]

Lighting can tax a system. Lighting have been a big issue. Real time lighting is heavily CPU bounded. Each time a lighting bound on a object, you just coursed another DRAW-call.

This is some of the decision, developers have to make. To exclude more advance lighting, and instead place in less advanced lighting.

Constructing is easy. It is about the constant changes the object will get. Most of them will be rather unpredictable (due to the nature of games)

Real time lighting is CPU-bound? Three calculations to get X,Y,Z coordinates of all objects and light sources. 2 calculations to get angle and distances. 5 for occlusion. Lighting is easily GPU offload-able. Whether you do rasterization or ray tracing it can all be GPU-offloaded. And no, three draw calls max to light the whole scene.

[rentaspoon]

-Scrap that-