Apple blocking Linux installs on newest Macs with T2 chip

[KuJoe]

2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Okay, let me get this straight. Are you saying that some developer decided to, without any technical reasons whatsoever, remove support for Arch Linux? I find that hard to believe.

No, it's worse than that. The developer FOR Arch Linux removed a software package from the OS during a maintenance update because they said they were using a better alternative and forced everybody to switch to the new software. A lot of users complained because it broke our OS and the developers all agreed that we shouldn't have been using that software and backed the developer's decision to remove it without warning.

[KuJoe]

8 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

You're having a completely different discussion that the person you replied to had.

Aren't discussions awesome like that? Everything is subject to interpretation and everybody is allowed to have their own opinions and personal experiences. 

[LAwLz]

26 minutes ago, KuJoe said:

No, it's worse than that. The developer FOR Arch Linux removed a software package from the OS during a maintenance update because they said they were using a better alternative and forced everybody to switch to the new software. A lot of users complained because it broke our OS and the developers all agreed that we shouldn't have been using that software and backed the developer's decision to remove it without warning.

Yeah... I don't see how that is any different than let's say Microsoft pushing an update to disable SecuROM and other software because they feel like users shouldn't be using it anymore.

What software was it Arch removed?

 

 

24 minutes ago, KuJoe said:

Aren't discussions awesome like that? Everything is subject to interpretation and everybody is allowed to have their own opinions and personal experiences. 

Well no, if someone asks one thing and you respond to a completely different thing without taking context into account then it's not really awesome.

[79wjd]

1 hour ago, suits said:

That is incorrect the 2018 MacBook lineup cannot have any data recovered if the logic board fails. That's even if nothing is wrong with the storage, there are new articles on here a few months back talking about it. A professional company said they might be able to recover it, but as a non professional you are out of luck trying to do it on your own, right to repair is a law that Apple seems to not care about.

It might be an inconvenience for a consumer, but it is entirely possible for the data to be recovered -- even without going through Apple. So yes, they absolutely can have data recovered even if the logic board fails -- they might need to get help from a third party, but realistically, that will be the case for the majority of users who have a problem with any computer.

 

The problem here is that it will be more time consuming and more expensive to recover data, but it is still entirely possible and reasonably easy to have done.

[Maticks]

Is this really an issue though the type of user who is hardcore Linux is unlikely to buy a Mac given its lack of upgradability. Also the price.

 

any student type person is probably learning Linux and a vm would be a better fit their.

 

[Terryv]

1 hour ago, Maticks said:

Is this really an issue though the type of user who is hardcore Linux is unlikely to buy a Mac given its lack of upgradability. Also the price.

 

any student type person is probably learning Linux and a vm would be a better fit their.

 

What else are you supposed to do when Apple inevitably stops supporting that device? Throw it away? Hang it up on the wall? Set it on fire?

 

Those seem rather wasteful to me.

[Master Delta Chief]

On 11/7/2018 at 6:18 AM, mate_mate91 said:

LOL who buys macbooks for linux is dumb! First of all those machines are so weak, they have the worst build quality! Second there exists legendary thinkpad series, which cost less then macbooks with much better hardware and run linux prety well AND are much more good looking! Fuck apple!

 

But i must admit every time apple makes such moves to limit their users, or raises prices for their product i like it! Because their customers deserve all that and even worse! GG apple!

On 11/7/2018 at 10:51 AM, asus killer said:

Spending that much on a overpriced mac and installing linux makes no sense. Then just buy a pc.

On 11/7/2018 at 12:30 PM, williamcll said:

If you are willing to pay this much for a laptop to install linux on just get a surface laptop instead.

On 11/7/2018 at 5:30 AM, Drak3 said:

If you're buying ANY Mac device to install another OS to, you need to reevaluate your life decisions.

 

On 11/7/2018 at 6:11 AM, Master Disaster said:

I think you're missing the point. Nobody buys a 2018 Mac to run Linux on it however in 2021 when Apple stop offering updates for the device running Linux is a great way of keeping an old device running latest version software.

 

On 11/7/2018 at 10:11 AM, captain_to_fire said:

I don't really see this as a problem when it can be disabled. 

 

 

I have been seeing this excuse of like: "Oh, if you want to install an other operating system, why are you buying a Mac". I know some of you are probably not even being serious about it. It's a shitty excuse that I've seen multiple times over the net. As Master Disaster says here above in the quote, once Apple stops supporting those MacBooks with their own software, Linux (and maybe even Windows?) can still in someways support it for a longer time. Besides, as pointed out already by captain_to_fire, you have the ability to turn off the secure boot. (for the picture reference, see post on page 1). So you should still be alright if you want to use Linux on a Mac.  EDIT: Nevermind, that information is incorrect unfortunately as mentioned in the post below.

 

[Jito463]

2 hours ago, Master Delta Chief said:

Besides, as pointed out already by captain_to_fire, you have the ability to turn off the secure boot. (for the picture reference, see post on page 1). So you should still be alright if you want to use Linux on a Mac. 

Except, as I mentioned earlier in the thread (and even in the OP), there's reports that disabling Secure Boot doesn't actually disable it.  There's also been other reports that people could disable it, but it blocks access to the internal SSD (due to being connected through the T2 chip), which effectively makes it impossible to install an OS.

[Thaldor]

On 11/9/2018 at 12:07 PM, Terryv said:

You do realize, people have a right to do stupid things. A call to Apple support will just have them ready revert back to macOS if their Linux venture goes wrong.

 

Fear of the T2 getting cracked isn't a valid excuse. It could be disabled in hardware when macOS isn't present.

 

Apple has no business telling people what to do with their things. It's also not like they're messing about with macOS.

Wasn't talking for Apple, but against them. Blocking Linux install is quite bad on mant levels, but the big thing here is why they would do it.

 

Cracking T2-chip is kind of big thing. If it gets cracked the encryption on the SSD encrypted with the T2-chip would be in danger and about every single protection and security T2 offers are done for. Disabling T2-chip also doesn't seem to be just that easy case because it does more than just offers security, it also handles camera and audio control and if I have understood correctly Apple SSDs no more have control chips because that also has been moved to the T2. So, disabling T2-chip completely would remove audio and internal storage, so installing Linux or even Windows without T2-chip activated would be impossible if you don't want to run around with external storage for the OS.

 

But I don't believe even Apple to be so incompetent that the T2-chips security would crack under just running the machine with different OS. Only logical reason why Apple would want to stop people from installing Linux is that they want to bind people to the Apple eco-cancer... sorry, system

[Guest]

Probably a different opinion but the majority of Mac owners don't actually care about or want Linux anyway. The truth is Apple probably forgot about it and simply allows MacOS and Windows to run in more of a whitelist manner. Macs are intended to be a powerful and simple to use solution that will last you a long time. If you are a Linux user, you probably aren't looking at a Mac, and if you are a Mac user, you won't be looking at Linux. This move by Apple, while controversial, will affect no one. Thats not just a generalised statement as Linux probably won't be able to run for some time anyway on full driver support for a while - there is no full support still for 2016/2017 Macs! 

[Jito463]

1 hour ago, RorzNZ said:

The truth is Apple probably forgot about it and simply allows MacOS and Windows to run in more of a whitelist manner.

The only problem with that argument, is Linux installs were apparently using a Microsoft signed UEFI certificate that Apple is intentionally not recognizing as valid.  This isn't a matter of them forgetting to include support, it's a matter of them no longer accepting a legitimately signed cert.

1 hour ago, RorzNZ said:

This move by Apple, while controversial, will affect no one.

Even as someone who uses neither Apple or LInux, I wouldn't be so quick to claim it would affect no one.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jito463 said:

The only problem with that argument, is Linux installs were apparently using a Microsoft signed UEFI certificate that Apple is intentionally not recognizing as valid.  This isn't a matter of them forgetting to include support, it's a matter of them no longer accepting a legitimately signed cert.

Even as someone who uses neither Apple or LInux, I wouldn't be so quick to claim it would affect no one.

Didn’t know about that cert. interesting to know.

 

my other point however still stands - you wouldn’t be able to have a useable Linux experience on a Mac of this generation anyway due to driver support. It would be a very limited experience.

[Thaldor]

21 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

my other point however still stands - you wouldn’t be able to have a useable Linux experience on a Mac of this generation anyway due to driver support. It would be a very limited experience.

Only parts where driver support isn't are those that are Apple specifics, mosty probably those that run over Apples hardware and those are audio, webcam and internal storage. Possibly USB/other IO controllers get fast support, because standardization and what else is inside already has support. Only pixie dust in there is the T2-chip, everything else is just boring normal hardware that any other laptop can have. Probably most of the drivers are already out there by the part manufacturers, because they are used elsewhere or there's incoming computers having them. Even more now that there's intels GPU or AMDs GPU ("So Nvidia, fuck you" ~Linus Torvalds 2012).