Integrated UPS ! why it does not exist ?

[Shubham kumar pandey]

As we all know we seriously need a UPS when we are going to build or buy per assembled CPU for gaming or for a powerful workstation

But for the CPU having processors like Pentium or celeron (not the 'X' series or Non-pro gaming and editing CPU's) or of that level. Why not to just Hook up a 12 v battery and some voltage step down boards directly in the PSU or in case? Since the PSU gives the output of 12v, 5v, 3.3v. we can easily create the required voltage for for the proper operation of the motherboard.

 

I had posted this topic only for curiosity that, why it should work?s or Why It Should Not?

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Shubham kumar pandey
just some typing mistakes

[Shimejii]

Because UPS for massive batteries just to run a system for 30 minutes let alone anything that draws power. Low power CPU, with no gpu and such could draw around 100W total for system fans, SSD, HDD and the cpu itself. That alone can run for a fair bit. Anything more then that a UPS kinda sucks, it only gives a few minutes to save your work and such, which can be amazing for people.

[bleedblue]

7 minutes ago, Shubham kumar pandey said:

we can easily create the required voltage for for the proper operation of the motherboard.

Then by all means do it. Just don't quote me when your house burns down.

 

Not everyone is skilled or knowledgeable about electronics to make something like that. Even then, why go through all that hassle when there are reliable, inexpensive UPS's available in the market?

[Shubham kumar pandey]

I am also not taking about running it for 30 min with massive battries as you said to save the work and safely turn it off 

 

[mariushm]

A computer game is just as much an application as any, so the computer should not differentiate between applications consuming 300w (a game) to run or just 10w (a web browser)

The game has just as much rights to have time to close and save your position in the game and so on, as any application.

 

For this reason, a power supply that offers this feature would have to have big enough batteries to keep pc running at full output of the power supply.

 

so why not offer

 

cheap batteries are also heavy and not so eco friendly (most cheap upses use sealed lead acid batteries, and lead is bad but luckily there's a good recycling scheme in place due to automobiles)

the batteries are heavy, so they'd add to the shipping cots of each power supply

the batteries are consumables, they'd have to be replaced every 2-3 years in order to work - a company making a psu with 10y warranty doesn't want to get the psu returned for warranty because 4 years after sold, the battery leaked or swollen or no longer holds charge

 

it also makes little sense in general, what if you have  3 computers in the room, or an office with 20 employees with computers? wouldn't it make sense to have a beefy ups that would power all those 3 or 20 computers in case of failure?

 

if you insist of adding ups functionality where do you draw the line? do you want to include a heavy battery in the back of your monitor to keep it running? How about your cable modem / router? etc etc

[Shubham kumar pandey]

5 minutes ago, bleedblue said:

Then by all means do it. Just don't quote me when your house burns down.

As i Said"I had posted this topic only for curiosity that, why it should work?s or Why It Should Not?" in the post

And,

9 minutes ago, bleedblue said:

 

Not everyone is skilled or knowledgeable about electronics to make something like that. Even then, why go through all that hassle when there are reliable, inexpensive UPS's available in the market?

I am not talking about DIY type UPS ,a consumer based 

 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Shubham kumar pandey said:

As we all know we seriously need a UPS when we are going to build or buy per assembled CPU for gaming or for a powerful workstation

But for the CPU having processors like Pentium or celeron (not the 'X' series or Non-pro gaming and editing CPU's) or of that level. Why not to just Hook up a 12 v battery and some voltage step down boards directly in the PSU or in case? Since the PSU gives the output of 12v, 5v, 3.3v. we can easily create the required voltage for for the proper operation of the motherboard.

 

You mean like this?

 

http://www.nipron.com/extra/psu/nonstop/\

 

[awesomegamer919]

4 hours ago, jonnyGURU said:

You mean like this?

 

http://www.nipron.com/extra/psu/nonstop/\

 

That requires an external battery though, Delta has a unit with a 1m "lifespan" even without a separate battery, uses GaN MODFETs as well (Though it's not ATX form factor): https://www.transphormusa.com/en/news/delta_electronics_800w_server_power_supply/

[mariushm]

2 minutes ago, awesomegamer919 said:

That requires an external battery though, Delta has a unit with a 1m "lifespan" even without a separate battery, uses GaN MODFETs as well (Though it's not ATX form factor): https://www.transphormusa.com/en/news/delta_electronics_800w_server_power_supply/

Due to the platinum efficiency of the power supply making it relatively cool, they can squeeze inside a lithium battery, probably in the space where they would normally have a fan. Just imagine a 18v laptop battery squeezed inside the atx power supply. Lithium batteries are much denser than lead acid batteries and can be shaped in more various ways - UPSes use lead acid batteries as they're easier and safer to charge and discharge and so on.

 

Anyway ... lithium batteries in every power supply... just another point of failure... how many pictures you see with phones and laptops with swollen batteries... and how more expensive power supplies would be because you can no longer ship them by air due to presence of lithium in them?

 

Those mosfets are not some magical things, they simply allow Delta to make the power supply using a smaller transformer, possibly one which is using some clever techniques like using flexible circuit boards as in this video (jump to around 5:00) - see how dense this power supply is while it can do 2450 watts :

 

 

 

 

Quote

Delta’s latest 80Plus Platinum 800 Watt PSU now offers a backup lithium-ion battery. Should a data center lose power, the PSU’s battery will keep connected servers running for one minute—long enough to allow for a proper power down sequence.

Any data center worth its salt would be powered from at least TWO separate power sources, some from 3, and they have UPSes and power generators on site ... even old diesel power generators can be brought online within 5-10 minutes of power failure, and in that time the UPSes in datacenter can keep the servers running.

Some datacenters have big flywheels and other systems to keep things running.

Some datacenters even power everything from high voltage DC instead of AC... DC produced from batteries or internal datacenter power system.

 

so data centers and power supply with battery in the same paragraph is kind of a joke.

 

[awesomegamer919]

11 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Due to the platinum efficiency of the power supply making it relatively cool, they can squeeze inside a lithium battery, probably in the space where they would normally have a fan. Just imagine a 18v laptop battery squeezed inside the atx power supply. Lithium batteries are much denser than lead acid batteries and can be shaped in more various ways - UPSes use lead acid batteries as they're easier and safer to charge and discharge and so on.

 

Anyway ... lithium batteries in every power supply... just another point of failure... how many pictures you see with phones and laptops with swollen batteries... and how more expensive power supplies would be because you can no longer ship them by air due to presence of lithium in them?

 

Those mosfets are not some magical things, they simply allow Delta to make the power supply using a smaller transformer, possibly one which is using some clever techniques like using flexible circuit boards as in this video (jump to around 5:00) - see how dense this power supply is while it can do 2450 watts :

I know how it works, just thought it was of some amusement...

 

And it does have some use in homelabs where you may not be able to power high end server UPSs or have backup generators. Regardless of it's practicality it's a neat concept

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, awesomegamer919 said:

That requires an external battery though, Delta has a unit with a 1m "lifespan" even without a separate battery, uses GaN MODFETs as well (Though it's not ATX form factor): https://www.transphormusa.com/en/news/delta_electronics_800w_server_power_supply/

That unit doesn't actually exist. It's just proof of concept. 

 

[Princess Luna]

19 hours ago, Shubham kumar pandey said:

As we all know we seriously need a UPS when we are going to build or buy per assembled CPU for gaming or for a powerful workstation

Ah... not really, I used one in my very first PC and then never again... In 10 years I have never had issues by not having an UPS just by not cheapening too much on my PSU.

[Stefan Payne]

19 hours ago, Shubham kumar pandey said:

As we all know we seriously need a UPS when we are going to build or buy per assembled CPU for gaming or for a powerful workstation

no, you need it. I don't, as ist heavily depends on the region where you live...

Or rather the quality of the line voltage. 

The voltage in my region is (mostly) fine, no issues here...

Quote

Why not to just Hook up a 12 v battery and some voltage step down boards directly in the PSU or in case?

Because:

a) Batteries tend to have high internal resistance

b) high voltage drop when loaded

c) unregulated...

And due to how things work, you'd want higher input voltages and convert it because a decent gaming PC with a decent GPU and so might use something like 450W. 

That's 37.5.

Depending on how the cable is installed, that equals a 6mm² or 10mm² Coppercable.

Have you ever seen such a large cable?

And how long do you want the cable to be??

Again, voltage drop here...

The higher the current, the more loss in the cable...

 

Quote

Since the PSU gives the output of 12v, 5v, 3.3v. we can easily create the required voltage for for the proper operation of the motherboard.

No, because of the voltage drops and other shit happening...

 

Quote

I had posted this topic only for curiosity that, why it should work?s or Why It Should Not?

No, because of physics...

[User78]

Sorry I know ... the topic is quite old ... but: yes this idea had found it's way in available products in the early 1990's.

I still use AT power supplies which embedded UPS for industrial applications. Never touch a running system

 

Here is the prove:

 

[mariushm]

Yeah, that 2Ah battery is really small ... and you probably have to check it yearly and replace it every 3 years or so... good luck with that. 

 

 

 

[User78]

It's out of another time where the power consumption was not as high as today. It consists out of two batteries and yes, lifetime is approx 3 to 4 years. Why luck? It's stable since 1992 and proved that since than ... .

Of cause nothing for modern PC's and their power draw, also not with modern battery chemistry.