EU Competition Commisioner wants to force Apple and others to switch to USB-C industry standard for charging phones

[Noctus]

31 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Doesn't matter that no one else uses it. Apple does, for their entire iProduct stack and accessories.

 

It does what's asked of it, it's readily available, and it provides competition in the port space.

Lol no, they use it to force you into their eco system. Hope this law passes explicitly stating no dongles and apple NEED to use type c standard. Competition in the port space? Because that's needed when pretty much everyone outside Apples closed off "perfect" world uses mainly one of 2 "standards". Apple need to get with it, their "solution" only causes more headaches.

[Drak3]

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

How is it not "good for tech"?

It forces, or attempts to, OEMs into standards that may not benefit them. Potentially, it can stagnate progress if a company wants to push a new product but type C isn't viable.

[DrMacintosh]

6 hours ago, Morgan MLGman said:

Apple using Lightning just not to use industry standards is stupid as well, all it does is drain more money from the customers for overpriced dongles. For the end-user using Lightning over USB-C gives no real benefits, but only causes problems like when you need a charger and don't have your own charging cable or a dongle.
I actually heard from a person being in such situation that "if everyone had iPhones then it wouldn't be a problem"... Yeah, sure, this is how the world works...

I don’t think you’re being fully fair with that comment. 

 

When Apple invented the lighting port, USB-C wasn’t really a thing. The best alternative was Micro USB and we all know how ass that is. Apple made a reversible connector that was smaller and suited their needs. Then USB C came around. 

 

I think Apple is justified in being able to keep Lighting and the EU shouldn’t force standards like this on companies. 

[Morgan MLGman]

6 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Well like I said, I think a law is valid if the benefits outweighs the drawbacks.

In this case, the only one negatively affected is Apple (and to some extent, people who bought into the Lightning ecosystem, but an adapter can solve that).

The ones who are positively affected is basically everyone else.

 

I am not sure what you mean.

The EU will appoint experts to validate the different options and determine what the effects would be, and what would be the best option for a universal standard, which will probably be USB type C.

I agree that this would be better for the customers, I myself use a USB-C phone (Galaxy S9) so this would be a nice improvement if iPhone users would also use this standard...

But I cannot help but wonder - if a company designs a connector that's superior in terms of technical specifications AND it works even better with their own products because they utilize its all features then they still cannot use it in their devices because of the EU laws It doesn't seem rational to me, it's like with the scientists who do research to pull humanity forward. They don't have to be politically correct in their research because that would potentially slow the progress of science down so they have some kind of immunity in their research (of course within some boundaries like human experiments etc.).
Laws like this may do just that but with electronics... And nobody wants to stagnate the progress in tech imo.
 

1 minute ago, DrMacintosh said:

I don’t think you’re being fully fair with that comment. 

 

When Apple invented lighting USB-C wasn’t really a thing. The best alternative was Micro USB. Apple made a reversible connector that was smaller and suited their needs. Then USB C came around. 

Well, if they used a tiny fraction of the Lightning budget to help co-develop USB-C that would solve the issue for the best and would make everyone happy I'm sure it was in development already...

[LAwLz]

11 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

It forces, or attempts to, OEMs into standards that may not benefit them. Potentially, it can stagnate progress if a company wants to push a new product but type C isn't viable.

It doesn't benefit the company using the proprietary connector, but it benefits the consumers and the rest of the world.

How does it stagnate progress? Please remember that this does not prevent companies from developing new ports and suggesting it becomes the standard.

 

What kind of new product are you talking about exactly? Please bear in mind this only applies to phones. Not watches, glasses or anything like that.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

But I cannot help but wonder - if a company designs a connector that's superior in terms of technical specifications AND it works even better with their own products because they utilize its all features then they still cannot use it in their devices because of the EU laws It doesn't seem rational to me, it's like with the scientists who do research to pull humanity forward. They don't have to be politically correct in their research because that would potentially slow the progress of science down so they have some kind of immunity in their research (of course within some boundaries like human experiments etc.).
Laws like this may do just that but with electronics... And nobody wants to stagnate the progress in tech imo.

If someone developed something better than USB type-C then they are free to apply to make that the new standard.

Industry standards are not set in stone. They change all the time.

[DrMacintosh]

9 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

Well, if they used a tiny fraction of the Lightning budget to help co-develop USB-C that would solve the issue for the best and would make everyone happy

It was designed when USB 3.1 was being made, so 2013 (when 3.1 was announced). The iPhone 5 came out in 2012......Apple wasn’t going to wait for a standard that wasn’t even a glint in the minds of the people who develop USB standards. 

 

[Trixanity]

41 minutes ago, LordOTaco said:

Ok look I'm not particularly fond of Apple but this regulation is stupid.  I like USB C but what do I care if Apple decides to use a lighting cable instead?  This is almost equivalent to the format wars when say Blu ray was competing against HD DVD and a government arbitrarily said ok those Blu Rays gotta go we have to have a single standard and all use HD DVDs because you know "consumer protection" and waste. 

Except in this case the market isn't regulating itself. This divergence will continue perpetually until Apple runs into technical limitations on Lightning which would happen quickly if Apple wasn't going wireless everything. Even if they hit the limit tommorow, would they switch or just redesign Lightning?

 

Apple has fuck you money to the nth degree. They could risk any format war except Apple is in the position that they aren't competing on charging standards. It's untouched. Apple could still be using the 30-pin Apple connector and it wouldn't make a difference.

 

That's why Apple is so controversial to begin with. They can dictate this and that within their ecosystem to the detriment of the consumer and people would still buy it because they like the ecosystem (horrible changes aside) or because of vendor lock-in. But that's a story for another time.

[mynameisjuan]

17 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

EU shouldn’t force standards like this on companies. 

But Apple is allowed to force USB-C on its customers with Macbooks

[PlayStation 2]

Tell me why Apple should be forced to switch to USB-C.

Honestly, the chances are high that Apple's gonna do it themselves sooner or later. I don't understand the EU's fascination with forcing companies to do stupid shit.

[Sniperfox47]

I'm going to come at this from a totally different angle than anyone else here has.

 

What the fudge? I mean I get that Apple devices are like 30% of mobile devices but wouldn't having laptop/tablet OEMs switch to a standardized power input be a better waste reduction measure? Maybe bundle phones into that? Force everyone to switch over to Power Delivery? Or at least some standardized 19v input... Everyone and their dog having different monoplug standards is kinda insane.

 

1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

It's neither bad not good.

 

Nor are all USB-C devices interoperable.

Any properly compliant USB-C device is interoperable. If this mandated compliance it would also kill that bird.

 

What USB devices don't work with USB-C?T The one I hear most is audio but any USB-C digital audio peripheral will work with your device (as long as the OS supports USB Audio Class).

 

Any USB Power Delivery 2.0 charger with at least the wattage support of the one that came with your device will charge your device as long as both sides follow the spec.

 

Non-USB protocols require support obviously but they're also not USB devices. Type-C is just a plug, not a protocol.

 

22 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

But I cannot help but wonder - if a company designs a connector that's superior in terms of technical specifications AND it works even better with their own products because they utilize its all features then they still cannot use it in their devices because of the EU laws It doesn't seem rational to me, it's like with the scientists who do research to pull humanity forward. They don't have to be politically correct in their research because that would potentially slow the progress of science down so they have some kind of immunity in their research (of course within some boundaries like human experiments etc.).
Laws like this may do just that but with electronics... And nobody wants to stagnate the progress in tech imo.

They absolutely can use it, just alongside a standard port.

 

If any legislation this investigation pushes towards allows it they can just do what Apple did "USB-C to proprietary adapter".

 

If it doesn't allow it, then just stick a USB-C port on alongside your proprietary port and allow charging from either.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Well like I said, I think a law is valid if the benefits outweighs the drawbacks.

In this case, the only one negatively affected is Apple (and to some extent, people who bought into the Lightning ecosystem, but an adapter can solve that).

The ones who are positively affected is basically everyone else.

 

I am not sure what you mean.

The EU will appoint experts to validate the different options and determine what the effects would be, and what would be the best option for a universal standard, which will probably be USB type C.

 

I never said using a Lightning port is the same as rape. Do you not understand what an analogy is?

Actually, this is something I have noticed a lot of on this forum.

 

Analogies are not 1:1 equivalences. Analogies are tools to explain some concepts when applied to different situations. In this case, I was saying that all laws restricts freedom of someone. I was in no way, shape or form saying that the situations I presented were the same except for precisely the point I was making (which was "all laws restrict freedom").

 

An analogy is when you transfer information or meaning from one subject to another. It does not mean subject A and subject B are equal in every regard, but it must be equal in at least one for it to be an analogy.

 

Analogies are two things which resemble one another in some sense. They are not equal signs.

 

I wasn't saying driving drunk is equal to raping someone else.

 

 

 

How is it not "good for tech"?

It increases interoperability and potentially lower waste of natural resources.

The law against violent crimes has little relevance to this. Those are in place to protect people while this law is entirely unnessisary. My point was you made comparison that is essential creating a straw man argument for governments making unnessisary regulations are justified just like how laws against violent crime are. If you want to make an analogy then use one that isn't an extreme. Restricting rights because it is more convenient for others is not a good policy for creating laws. Laws should be made when action is nessisary. This doesn't seem like one of those situations. 

[Jtalk4456]

1 hour ago, mynameisjuan said:

But Apple is allowed to force USB-C on its customers with Macbooks

ummm... no. If you want to buy a macbook, that is a CHOICE. Apple cannot force you to use anything you don't want. If you buy their product, you buy all of their product, period. Same with any company. Is Lenovo FORCING you to use a proprietary charger? no, that's just part of their product. If you want a dell laptop, you have that CHOICE. I'm not a fan of Apple, but your analogy just makes a false assumption

[mynameisjuan]

6 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

ummm... no. If you want to buy a macbook, that is a CHOICE. Apple cannot force you to use anything you don't want. If you buy their product, you buy all of their product, period. Same with any company. Is Lenovo FORCING you to use a proprietary charger? no, that's just part of their product. If you want a dell laptop, you have that CHOICE. I'm not a fan of Apple, but your analogy just makes a false assumption

What are you talking about dude?

 

If people are in the apple ecosystem and they upgraded to the 15' macbook they are force to buy dongles or type-c alternatives including type-c cables to just plugin an iphone. And this is not a choice for some people especially if you are locked in to the eco or already surrounded by $10k's of equipment for mac. 

 

Apple forces drasitc changes on its customers all the time, but if the EU does it, oh noes...

[Jtalk4456]

12 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

What are you talking about dude?

 

If people are in the apple ecosystem and they upgraded to the 15' macbook they are force to buy dongles or type-c alternatives including type-c cables to just plugin an iphone. And this is not a choice for some people especially if you are locked in to the eco or already surrounded by $10k's of equipment for mac. 

 

Apple forces drasitc changes on its customers all the time, but if the EU does it, oh noes...

"and they upgraded"

Meaning the consumer made a CHOICE to buy another product from apple. All I was saying is it is a choice to buy into apple's ecosystem. So consumers need to stop buying macbooks if they want to stop dealing with dongles. simple as that. The EU shouldn't be regulating Apple, the CONSUMERS should be!

[mynameisjuan]

1 minute ago, Jtalk4456 said:

"and they upgraded"

Meaning the consumer made a CHOICE to buy another product from apple. All I was saying is it is a choice to buy into apple's ecosystem. So consumers need to stop buying macbooks if they want to stop dealing with dongles. simple as that. The EU shouldn't be regulating Apple, the CONSUMERS should be!

Again....if they are already in the damn ecosystem its much much harder to just switch. This USB-C switch was instant with no lube for the consumers. Some have no choice when upgrading regardless of if you think they do. 

 

Can the consumers change Apple? Yes.....will they...no

[Jtalk4456]

Just now, mynameisjuan said:

1. Some have no choice when upgrading regardless of if you think they do. 

2. Can the consumers change Apple? Yes.....will they...no

1. Well that's just malarky. Everyone has a choice to buy a different brand plain and simple. If apple were holding consumers at gunpoint, they'd be arrested.

2. I agree with this statement. but the first half of this statement contradicts your previous inability to believe they have choice. If they CAN change, They CAN choose

[mynameisjuan]

4 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

1. Well that's just malarky. Everyone has a choice to buy a different brand plain and simple. If apple were holding consumers at gunpoint, they'd be arrested.

2. I agree with this statement. but the first half of this statement contradicts your previous inability to believe they have choice. If they CAN change, They CAN choose

1. You dont realize how much people can have invested in an ecosystem do you? Some times you cannot switch. Period.

2. As long as most people buying apple are like Drmacintosh, the customers will never change. They will complain, they will bitch, but they still buy, buy, buy. 

[Jtalk4456]

7 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

1. You dont realize how much people can have invested in an ecosystem do you? Some times you cannot switch. Period.

2. As long as most people buying apple are like Drmacintosh, the customers will never change. They will complain, they will bitch, but they still buy, buy, buy. 

1. You don't seem to understand the difference between "will not" and "cannot". You CAN change. Period. No one is incapable of going to PC. Many WILL NOT, but ALL CAN, regardless of the ecosystem. to pretend otherwise is silly. Dr.Macintosh COULD switch is they wanted to, but they don't want to.

2. I would actually be fine with this if they DID complain and b^&ch, but they don't. remember the whole "the device works as intended, you're just holding the phone wrong" Most of their consumers seem to buy into this mentality that they are using it wrong or expecting too much of something. If most apple users WERE complaining, apple would have changed by now, same as any other company

[mark_cameron]

13 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

EU regulators are looking into whether there's a need to force phone manufacturers to adopt USB-C industry standard for phone charging.

 

This is part of the EU's move to cut down on waste and they want all phones to use the same connector to reduce the number of phone chargers thrown away each year.

 

This move could see Apple and every other Phone manufacturer be forced to use USB-C for phone charging. If this is the EU's intent then it may explain the rumours of the iPhone 2018 having USB-C charging.

 

 

 

I applaud the potential outcome of this but I'm not necessarily sure that the problem they claim they are solving is actually the real problem that needs to be solved.

 

Anyhow, would love to see iPhones using USB-C so that people can share charging cables more freely.

 

Source:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/eu-taking-another-look-at-phone-chargers-because-theyre-still-not-standardized/

 

As a point of context. The competition regulators would not try and enforce a standard 

 

In this way

 

Unless they can prove that consumers are being over charged for something they should not be.

 

It suggests the EU commission has evidence of Apple overcharging consumers directly when an industry standard port type is already available at a much lower cost.

 

They've probably identified price inflexibility and price fixing. In some form. As that regulator has no power to enforce standards otherwise.

[mynameisjuan]

16 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

1. You don't seem to understand the difference between "will not" and "cannot". You CAN change. Period. No one is incapable of going to PC. Many WILL NOT, but ALL CAN, regardless of the ecosystem. to pretend otherwise is silly. Dr.Macintosh COULD switch is they wanted to, but they don't want to.

There are time when someone has $10,000s invested. This is not a literally "cannot". Please stop arguing semantics. 

 

17 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

2. I would actually be fine with this if they DID complain and b^&ch, but they don't. remember the whole "the device works as intended, you're just holding the phone wrong" Most of their consumers seem to buy into this mentality that they are using it wrong or expecting too much of something. If most apple users WERE complaining, apple would have changed by now, same as any other company

Do you follow any release of apple products? Headphone jack? Macbook dongle life? Macbook thermals? keyboard?....They do bitch but they also buy. Apple reach 1 trillion dollars, bitching has no jack shit. 

[mark_cameron]

13 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Apple devices are extremely popular not to mention Apple is a Trillion dollar company now. Couldn't Apple just tell the EU to go "eff off"? Apple stuff is popular enough where people will probably be smuggling them in anyway if a sales ban were ever put in place.

No. This isn't America.

 

Apple can be fined substantially.

 

It's come from Apple over charging consumers for its products. 

[mark_cameron]

13 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Not paying the fine could also be an option for a company as powerful as Apple. Apple excecutives reside in America, so there'd be little in the way of pursuing criminal charges anyway.

 

Not that I'm rooting for either Apple or the EU tbh. I'm just really Interested in seeing the outcome of an unyielding corporate giant and a powerful government body duke it out in full force. As said before, Apple stuff is extremely popular (even in the EU), so a sales ban would undoubtedly be met with public backlash. 

This is nonsense.

 

In order to put on the market in Europe: Apple has a legal entity registered in Ireland.

 

The EU could force close that entity and stop all Apple sales in Europe. By prohibiting any Apple entities opening elsewhere in Europe. Plus sale of products.

 

Apple won't do this as their executive aren't stupid.

 

Apple is already in trouble with the EU and had to pay €13 BILLION (US $18 BILLION) for taxes it claimed were not due but were deemed illegal Ireland state aid. The bills will just mount up for Apple.

 

 

It will be cheaper if they just cooperate. Better for Apple shareholders who executives DO ANSWER TO.

 

The EU has the tech giant's in its sights. For tax evasion and consumer over charging and anti competitive practices.

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/apple-still-owes-state-5bn-in-back-taxes-1.3584220
 

Quote

EU competition commissioner Margrethe Vestager has already shown herself impatient with the slow pace of repayment of what she views as illegal state aid from Ireland to Apple. Last year she took the State to court for not getting the money back quickly enough. The EU’s press office said on Thursday that officials were ready to withdraw that suit when all the funds are transferred.

 

[79wjd]

2 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

Again....if they are already in the damn ecosystem its much much harder to just switch. This USB-C switch was instant with no lube for the consumers. Some have no choice when upgrading regardless of if you think they do. 

 

Can the consumers change Apple? Yes.....will they...no

I forgot how Apple can somehow force someone to upgrade.... Not to mention the fact that you could buy the just as capable 2015 MBP with full usb-a ports, brand new for two years after the release of the type-C Macs, directly from Apple (to this day from other retailers, and for the next decade from used sellers).

 

No one, even those who are "locked into Apple's ecosystem" (and feel free to explain how one could be locked into their ecosystem for $10k other than with software, which would equate to a lot of software and thus a lot of users -- e.g. $10k is likely to be irrelevant compared to the cost of new hardware. On top of that, someone who is that heavily invested probably doesn't give two shits about spending $40 on new cables) was forced to buy the type-c Macs. 

[Jtalk4456]

20 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

There are time when someone has $10,000s invested. This is not a literally "cannot". Please stop arguing semantics. 

 

Do you follow any release of apple products? Headphone jack? Macbook dongle life? Macbook thermals? keyboard?....They do bitch but they also buy. Apple reach 1 trillion dollars, bitching has no jack shit. 

Edit: Removed argument as it was based on a misreading of the comment. I still don't believe an investment reduces a consumers ability to choose. Furthermore I would argue those who have 10k invested in a software ecosystem should have made the choice to stop investing before they had spent 10K on a bad product and should make the choice to stop now if they don't like it BEFORE that 10k turns into 20K and 30K over the years. There needs to be a breaking point where logic takes over and these consumers stand up for themselves

 

Edit: Forgot your second point there. To answer your question, I do follow, and the only people I see complaining tend to be non apple users like myself. The apple users typically argue that apple is being "brave" and making the choices no other companies will, like the headphone fiasco. All android users were yelling at apple for removing a vital port, while the apple users were happily buying airpods or other bluetooth headphones and praising apple for increasing the ip rating. Now of course there are exceptions to everything. But for the most part, no i have not seen the standard apple user complain. I've seen them buy what they need to add that functionality back and praise apple anyways.

[Trixanity]

56 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

Snip

He literally said he didn't say literally. So you're literally arguing against a straw man. Literally.