What if... there were higher end consoles than present?

[porina]

 

I'm not a big console gamer, but do have a PS4. What I write below will focus on that, although it could apply equally to Xbox family also.

 

The thought I had came about due to two things:

1, due to the mining GPU situation, it is difficult to build a good value mid-range gaming system.

2, consoles have traditionally been looked down on, in part, due to their perceived lack of power

 

We have the PS4 serving as a base level, and PS4 Pro with a bit more poke in it. Why not continue going up? Variations of the image above have been going around since the PS4 Pro was announced. Just add another slice!

 

Anyway, the thinking is simple, add a higher model in the range above the Pro. They can keep the same requirements on the developers as they do now, such that the base model can still perform at a decent level and they're not allowed to make a Pro only (or higher) game. But also use the extra power to make it better. Why not have a higher end gaming quality in a console? It'll cost more, for sure, but you get more performance also. Would that make console gaming more appealing?

 

The upgrade doesn't necessarily have to be limited to CPU/GPU updates, but the storage is something I've found lacking in consoles. I don't expect TB+ SSDs, but it could be interesting if, for example, it came with a 512GB SSD and also maybe say 3TB HD, but as both are fitted at the same time, the OS could use the SSD to cache intelligently and help the HD out. For a given game, the more frequent accessed items can be cached on SSD with other stuff still streamed from HD/optical as needed.

[Mooshi]

Because it doesn't make sense from a marketing perspective. Take Nintendo with the Wii vs the Wii U. Target audience knew it was a new system while parents were questioning why they are buying the same thing twice.

 

Personally, I don't like the idea behind a regular console vs the "plus" model. Would make more sense aiming towards a new gen all together than confusing parents.

[Himommies]

If you add higher end consoles the base models will pretty much dies because:

 

1. Optimization

The only reason modern console's can get that level of performance is through extreme optimization which you cannot do on PC because every single PC is different. Adding different consoles makes optimization that much harder.

 

2.Developers

Game developers in history have alway tried to squeeze the most power out of the hardware,in doing so even if something like the PS4 Pro is only owned by 10 percent of the population,most developers will develop for it and just scaling it down.

 

[Techicolors]

what about the xbox one x. that console is pretty high-end 

[Sauron]

You're basically describing a prebuilt pc. GPU shortages would apply to these as well since you can't make a custom SOC beyond a certain level of power.

[themctipers]

the good thing about console is that you know it is going to last for a couple of years, and will support all the new games for a couple of years, and that you'll have the same relatively good experience as your buddy who has the same console, and the person across the internet, who has the same console.

nobody has an advantage in terms of fps/grass/whatever else

[Starelementpoke]

It would upset the balance of the universe and anger our overlords.

[Paddi01]

26 minutes ago, Himommies said:

If you add higher end consoles the base models will pretty much dies because:

 

1. Optimization

The only reason modern console's can get that level of performance is through extreme optimization which you cannot do on PC because every single PC is different. Adding different consoles makes optimization that much harder.

 

2.Developers

Game developers in history have alway tried to squeeze the most power out of the hardware,in doing so even if something like the PS4 Pro is only owned by 10 percent of the population,most developers will develop for it and just scaling it down.

 

Do you think game developers always try to utilize the consoles to 100%?

Would it be possible to do this on PC as well aside from the effort?

[Himommies]

Just now, Paddi01 said:

Do you think game developers always try to utilize the consoles to 100%?

Would it be possible to do this on PC as well aside from the effort?

 

 

[porina]

58 minutes ago, Himommies said:

If you add higher end consoles the base models will pretty much dies because:

 

1. Optimization

The only reason modern console's can get that level of performance is through extreme optimization which you cannot do on PC because every single PC is different. Adding different consoles makes optimization that much harder.

Sony were careful to prevent the case of abandoning or sub-par support on base model. If they optimise for the base model, while keeping in mind the top model can do more, I think it can still still scale well. 

58 minutes ago, Himommies said:

2.Developers

Game developers in history have alway tried to squeeze the most power out of the hardware,in doing so even if something like the PS4 Pro is only owned by 10 percent of the population,most developers will develop for it and just scaling it down.

As before, they will still have to target and optimise the base model as it will still be the most common from low price alone. Scaling upwards is less of a problem, if the scaling efficiency is less than perfect it doesn't matter so much.

55 minutes ago, Sauron said:

You're basically describing a prebuilt pc. GPU shortages would apply to these as well since you can't make a custom SOC beyond a certain level of power.

Doesn't matter if integrated or separate GPU, they don't buy them in the same way. They'll have longer term contracts in place to ensure supply. The minor difference is instead of saying "supply this integrated device" it'll be "supply this pair of devices".

[Himommies]

1 hour ago, porina said:

Sony were careful to prevent the case of abandoning or sub-par support on base model. If they optimise for the base model, while keeping in mind the top model can do more, I think it can still still scale well. 

Sony dosen't do any optimazation. The dev's do it 

 

1 hour ago, porina said:

As before, they will still have to target and optimise the base model as it will still be the most common from low price alone. Scaling upwards is less of a problem, if the scaling efficiency is less than perfect it doesn't matter so much.

They should sure,but what company when selling a game dosen't want to make it as attractive as possible

[Stefan Payne]

7 hours ago, porina said:

We have the PS4 serving as a base level, and PS4 Pro with a bit more poke in it. Why not continue going up?

Been there, done that.

See XBox 360 and PS3.

 

Their sales in the first years were abysmal until they dropped the price dramatically.

 

 

So you can say that nobody wants a high end console because nobody bought it when the consoles were really high end...

[porina]

7 hours ago, Himommies said:

Sony dosen't do any optimazation. The dev's do it 

Got that, but looking back I see my writing was confusing in that way.

7 hours ago, Himommies said:

They should sure,but what company when selling a game dosen't want to make it as attractive as possible

Not saying they can't, the only requirement is that it has to be of a good playable quality on base model. How much extra candy they throw at higher is another matter.

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

So you can say that nobody wants a high end console because nobody bought it when the consoles were really high end...

I'm not looking at the expensive model as the ONLY model, but an additional top tier. Even with the release of PS4 Pro, there are a ton of standard PS4s still out there. The idea is more choice. With an established base like there is now, I'm sure there is a small but not insignificant group who would go much higher than the Pro model if it were available.

[Sauron]

10 hours ago, porina said:

Doesn't matter if integrated or separate GPU, they don't buy them in the same way. They'll have longer term contracts in place to ensure supply. The minor difference is instead of saying "supply this integrated device" it'll be "supply this pair of devices".

Yes, but they can't just ask to get them at half price. Not to mention they'd become obsolete pretty quickly anyway - the sort of people looking to buy 1080s and 1080tis wouldn't be satisfied. They wouldn't be upgradeable either, whereas if you have a decent pc you can revive it with a gpu upgrade 3-4 years later without having to buy a whole new machine or be stuck with potato resolution and framerate.

[porina]

2 hours ago, Sauron said:

Yes, but they can't just ask to get them at half price. Not to mention they'd become obsolete pretty quickly anyway - the sort of people looking to buy 1080s and 1080tis wouldn't be satisfied. They wouldn't be upgradeable either, whereas if you have a decent pc you can revive it with a gpu upgrade 3-4 years later without having to buy a whole new machine or be stuck with potato resolution and framerate.

The long term contracts will have certain pricing conditions. They are not competing against retail GPUs. Obsolecence is also a total non-issue the same way it isn't in any console. It just needs to offer more than the base platform. You're trying to turn it into a PC and missing the point this is supposed to be a higher end console than offered currently.

[Himommies]

2 hours ago, porina said:

The long term contracts will have certain pricing conditions. They are not competing against retail GPUs. Obsolecence is also a total non-issue the same way it isn't in any console. It just needs to offer more than the base platform. You're trying to turn it into a PC and missing the point this is supposed to be a higher end console than offered currently.

When you do that you basically are turning it into a PC.What kind of consumer would buy a 700 dollar PS4?I highly doubt that it will sell at all,especially if your including the cost of PS4 Games and PS Plus and shit like that.

It'll be a much better idea to get a 1000 dollar PC with a 1070(when prices drop) and a 8400 then it ever will be to do that.Buy Orgin Access evrey month and you'll be much better off

[porina]

2 hours ago, Himommies said:

When you do that you basically are turning it into a PC.What kind of consumer would buy a 700 dollar PS4?I highly doubt that it will sell at all,especially if your including the cost of PS4 Games and PS Plus and shit like that.

It'll be a much better idea to get a 1000 dollar PC with a 1070(when prices drop) and a 8400 then it ever will be to do that.Buy Orgin Access evrey month and you'll be much better off

There are some console exclusives. Why is it hard to imagine there are some, admittedly not higher numbers, of people who can and would pay for more power than offered right now? In a similar way there are people prepared to spend big bucks on a gaming specific PC far beyond anything required by games. We don't need to go that far here.

 

I wonder if there are stats on, out of the PS4s sold, how many are "Pro" vs base models. Both lifetime and "recent" sales. If you look on youtube, there's an awful lot of streamers who are keen to point out they're on the Pro, for the edge it gives over standard model. Be clear here, I'm in no way suggesting a high price standard model. This will be a high end model with a high price for those that want it.

 

I'd go one step further, to mix topics on this forum. A high end console as I'm proposing, I'd bet would generate more revenue than that Windows Polaris bull MS are planning  

[Himommies]

39 minutes ago, porina said:

Why is it hard to imagine there are some, admittedly not higher numbers

Even a company like sony can't make a higher end device that would only appeal to a couple thousand people. Since they can't jack up the price too much or pepole won't buy it,all your doing is wreacking havoc on your production lines

[porina]

52 minutes ago, Himommies said:

Even a company like sony can't make a higher end device that would only appeal to a couple thousand people. Since they can't jack up the price too much or pepole won't buy it,all your doing is wreacking havoc on your production lines

I'd agree if it were really only a couple thousand, but I think it would be much bigger than that. In a quick search, I found the link below, where since the Pro was launched, 1 in 5 sales are the pro model. While the numbers would obviously drop, I still think it could be significant.

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2017/06/06/ps4-pro-represents-nearly-one-in-every-five-ps4s-sold

[Nedkely]

Quote

2, consoles have traditionally been looked down on, in part, due to their perceived lack of power

 

Oh my god, why... 

The consoles on release were not lacking in power, get over that myth created by pcmr enthusiasts, the PS3, PS2 and even PS4 upon release were highly scored devices, previous ones were even revolutionary. 

Its just how the devices are after several years after release, ps4 is from 2013, its already 5 years after release, now take a look at GPU's from that time, 500 and 600 series are pure garbage today unable to hold new games in 30 fps. 

CPU's are even worse, not to mention inferior ddr2 memory. 

 

As for upgrades, its not really that simple to implement at all, thats why they hold one version of console for many years, because they could configure and adapt API for them to make game developers job easier. 

Look at the ps4 pro, it took developers a lot of time to configure their games towards it. 

One console and one hardware just makes things easier to create OS, games and other stuff on it. Consumer would just lost interest into the consoles, if they were more expensive, for the most price above 500 bucks is not acceptable and companies has to adapt to it. 

 

[skywake]

1 hour ago, Nedkely said:

The consoles on release were not lacking in power, get over that myth created by pcmr enthusiasts, the PS3, PS2 and even PS4 upon release were highly scored devices, previous ones were even revolutionary. 

Except that it is increasingly less and less true. If you go back to the 90s what could be done on a console was generally quite a bit above what you could do on a PC. The PS4/XBOne are the first "high end" consoles that have launched well behind the curve of what can be done on PC. Not that they were bad value, they were actually pretty good value and still are. But they weren't pushing the limits of hardware by any stretch. 

 

1 hour ago, Nedkely said:

Its just how the devices are after several years after release, ps4 is from 2013, its already 5 years after release, now take a look at GPU's from that time, 500 and 600 series are pure garbage today unable to hold new games in 30 fps. CPU's are even worse, not to mention inferior ddr2 memory. 

What are you talking about? The CPU is by far the least impressive part of these consoles and 600 series cards are far from "pure garbage". Also there was no way you were building a PC with DDR2 in 2013. Even an entry level gaming PC in 2013 which would have been an overclocked Pentium paired with 4-8GB of DDR3 and something like a 650Ti would still be ok running most games at 1080p today. Maybe not ultra-details at 60fps and maybe not with some games that actually take advantage of more than two cores these days. But at 1080p such a machine is far from "pure garbage".

And that would've been a super entry level gaming machine at the time. If you had got an i7 or even an i5 you'd still be well above the spec of the CPU that's in the XBOne X let alone the original XBOne/PS4. And for GPU sure you may be a bit behind the curve now especially compared to the X. But at 1080p if you have a 660Ti or 670 you're still reasonably happy with most modern games as long as you're not pushing everything up to Ultra.

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, skywake said:

Even an entry level gaming PC in 2013 which would have been an overclocked Pentium paired with 4-8GB of DDR3 and something like a 650Ti would still be ok running most games at 1080p today.

No, because there are more and more games that require 4 Cores to boot let alone run.

You can't run them on a Dual Core...

[skywake]

28 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, because there are more and more games that require 4 Cores to boot let alone run.

You can't run them on a Dual Core...

I know, which is why I said:

2 hours ago, skywake said:

Even an entry level gaming PC in 2013 which would have been an overclocked Pentium paired with 4-8GB of DDR3 and something like a 650Ti would still be ok running most games at 1080p today. Maybe not ultra-details at 60fps and maybe not with some games that actually take advantage of more than two cores these days. But at 1080p such a machine is far from "pure garbage".

As I also said, I built my PC in late 2014 and it wasn't exactly bleeding edge at the time. Core i5, R9 285, 16GB DDR3. Given I still have a 1080p/60Hz display I haven't really had much reason to upgrade any of these components. I wouldn't have been able to say the same about my similarly expensive PC I built in 2005 by the time 2009 rolled around. Consoles are nowhere near as bleeding edge as they used to be and tech is becoming "outdated" far slower than it used to.

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, skywake said:

I know, which is why I said

No, you didn't.

You did NOT say that some games don't even start with a 2 core Processor. 

Those games can't even run like shit on a 2 core at all...

[skywake]

18 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, you didn't.

You did NOT say that some games don't even start with a 2 core Processor. 

Those games can't even run like shit on a 2 core at all...

I quoted what I said. I said that for most games would still be fine running on a fairly entry level gaming PC from 2013 at 1080p. My example being an overclocked dual-core Pentium with 8GB RAM and a 650Ti. I then specifically mentioned that it wouldn't be at Ultra details and that with some games you'd run into issues with games that need more than two cores. So I don't know why you are saying that I didn't mention these things.

All of which is beside the point anyway because it was a relatively extreme example I constructed myself to prove a point. The person I was quoting was saying that all PCs build around 2013 were complete garbage for gaming in 2018. "Especially the CPU". Which is complete BS.