Technical work in Europe.

[VikingGaming]

Norway can be a risky move. While salaries here are quite decent for someone educated in the field, the cost of living is painfully high in the cities (especially in Oslo). Not speaking the language is generally not a huge concern, but most companies would appreciate if you would learn the language. I am not sure about the legal stuff when it comes to moving here, but I do not believe that having work is a must. 

 

Maybe check these links for more information:

 

From the tax agency/IRS: http://www.skatteetaten.no/en/International-pages/Felles-innhold-benyttes-i-flere-malgrupper/Articles/Reporting-a-move-to-Norway/?nav-veiviser=12924

https://www.nav.no/workinnorway/en/Guide+for+citizens+from+countries+outside+EU+and+EEA/Get+started+in+Norway/Apply+for+a+residence+permit

https://www.nav.no/workinnorway/en/Guide+for+Nordic+citizens/Get+started+in+Norway/Registering+your+move+to+Norway

[Guest]

First off, sorry for the late reply; I had a lot of school work, and wanted to focus a huge lot of time to responding. Thank you all for assistance, and patience. 

On 10/28/2017 at 3:54 AM, Mihle said:

I dont know if this will help you, but the Scandinavian countries, people living here are generally good in English compared to other parts of Europe (exept UK ofc).

Germany is the most obvious recommendation... The powerhouse of Europe or whatever people call it...

I like the Scandinavian countries, and Germany; I am more than willing to learn the language. I can pick up German, it's just difficult to retain when I only speak English at home. 

On 10/28/2017 at 5:09 AM, Teddy07 said:

Yes, they are also great and are known for their excellent education system! Norway is higher on my list where I want to live after my degree together with Swiss.

I hear Finland, and Norway are great places; Switzerland is one of the top places in the world to live as well. 

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In general about the German education system and situation:

I assume you want to study for some IT degree? IT and healthcare are in desperate need for qualified people here in Germany and the rest of the world. You chose your employer and not else if you know what I mean. That is one reason why I started to study computer science it at age 31, or as we call it Informatik.

I am interested in Electrical Technology, IT, programming, and electronic devices in general. 

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Keep in mind that the German university education is split into two different parts: There are the universities which are known for their theoretical knowledge transfer. This is considered slightly above the other option because it is harder in part due to more theory and more (higher) math. The math part depends on your subject.

Then there is the Fachhochschule which teaches you more practice-oriented stuff, which means it is easier and has less math. You work there with companies and do projects, do internships a full semester... It doesn't mean it is worse, just different. The pay difference isn't much in the end.

I am doing the equivilent of Fachhochschule (University of Applied Sciences - Google translate) in a semi-Uni format. (Community college) So it's not quite a "Tech School" but it's a practical school with more academic demand. I personally don't care much for the pay. With work comes pay. 

Are the works with companies like apprenticeships? (Lehrling? - Google Translate) My cousin's boyfriend is working with a machine company doing learning-I don't know if he is going to school as well. 

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What is the difference in the end? A university degree has slightly more prestige at least in the student's mind as well as slightly more pay in the end at least in the start.

A tier system for employers doesn't exist as long as you don't pick a subject with plenty of students such as economics. Some universities are more focused on one discipline than others but it doesn't matter in the end when you want to get an IT degree. Any company will take you with a wrist drop. This means just pick the university that suits your needs the most.

Do I need an IT degree? I spoke to my parents and they really think I should stick with Electrical Technology (Circuit boards repair, and similar.) but I teach myself a lot of programming. If I may ask what you learn in informatik; what do you learn?

Is it

Networks, programming, switch routing, web administration, servers? That's what the Computer degree at my school teaches. 

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The first degree that you want to get at a university is a Bachelor, which you will achieve in ~3 years if you are on time. Then comes the master with an additional 2 years.

Unfortunately, I may be restricted to a 2 year degree (more on this below)

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My university:

I study at the University of Bayreuth which is located in the southern part of Germany called Bavaria. It is a smaller one with only 13.000 students. This winter semester started ~130 computer science students. As you can see a really tiny number compared to the overall students. I really like smaller universities because you see the same people every day which makes it a lot easier to form connections.

There are many foreign students in Germany. I read in a recent newspaper article that are are 7% foreign students at my university but there are plans to increase it to 10%. Many Chinese people make their economics master in Bayreuth because it has a good reputation for that discipline and probably also because Germany trades a lot with China.

 

I would say that foreign people that want to study and afterwards stay in Germany prefer an IT degree because they know the good job opportunities and pay after. I have for example foreign students from Marocco, Isreal, Azerbaijan, Syria ... I would say that the foreign student's number is higher in computer science compared to other subjects.

 

The computer science master is held in English at my university and many others because the text sources required are mostly written in English there.

IT is mostly an English language field. When I took Russian, all the technology was Russian spelling of English words. 

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I advise against enrolling at my university. Why might you ask? Because all my foreign computer science friends struggle with the language and in part with math like most do . It is advised that you have higher knowledge in the German language when you want to study a university, at least the C1 grade.

I am having a bit of trouble with math, so I want to stay a bit away from this. 

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This is because the course material is written precisely which means it is more difficult than the German language you will encounter in the workplace or anywhere else. The problem is that nearly all of my friends only have the B1-B2 grade and really struggle to finish the homework in time because they simply don't understand the materials well enough. They also often fail in the exams because they do not get more time and can therefore not finish in time. That is why the university dropout rate of foreigners are high especially high, even more so in degrees that need a lot of math. Many universities have language courses for foreigners to improve their German (mines does).

But don't worry that´s where the Fachhochschule comes into play again. It against has again easier requirements in terms of language skills. My friend from Marocco recently told me that a friend of him studied computer science at a university but did not pass one exam in 3 semester due to bad language and math skills. He switched to the Fachhochschule and all his problems vanished. At least that is what he told me.

I really want to go, however my parents want me to at minimum finish the degree I am doing here with Electrical Technology. 

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What does B1, C1... mean? here: https://www.goethe.de/ins/de/en/kuv/stu.html)

That's really informative! Thank you very much about the language levels. I'll see how I can get to the highest on my own.  

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But there is an even better option if you want to make your Bachelors degree in Germany. I have read that there are even Bachelors degrees completely held in English at some universities because Germany attracts so many foreign students that the universities followed the demand and launched English only subjects. Just google  

 

Oh, I forgot that you do not need a special work permit if you only want to study here. A study permit is enough. Even my friend from Marrocco got one and African students are less likely to get that. The requirements aren't high in general. The problem is that Bavaria is known for their tough stance on foreigners which means that the foreigner's registration office has tougher rules than in other parts of Germany. This office has to extend your student permit if you do not have other options for getting a permit. Just google your options because I am no expert there!

Sure there are ways around but the foreigner's office in Bayreuth gave my friend from Marocco some tougher restrictions. He will soon change his residency to a place in another federal state and continue to study in Bayreuth because he likes it here and rents are really low.

Is there an opportunity for people to go as an adult, for instance (bit more exagerated than my circumstances) a 31 year old American that isn't doing school to apply for education in Germany, and do that?

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My university has an international office: http://www.international-office.uni-bayreuth.de//en/contact/index.html  You can still contact them and ask questions even if you don't want to enroll there.  I think every university has a foreign career service because so many foreign people study here

Thank you very much! I will inquire about a semester abroad, and send this information to my career services to see how they can help me get a job! 

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Don't worry, there are enough jobs for everyone at least in the IT sector. Jobs are here plenty and the economy does well for years now.  I recently read that a spokesman of the car manufacturer BMW (huge great company) now nearly hire as much computer science students as mechanical engineers. This is insane! They are producing cars! It was way lower in the past he said and it will continue to increase.

My professor also explained that ~50% of a cars manufacturers profit is now made with their special software. Sick!

That's really cool! 

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My professor, for example, said that there are currently ~70.000 IT jobs vacant in Swiss while it only has 8 million citizens. I can tell you that swiss is fucking great and beautiful but expensive! But you have to like winter and a lot of snow! I was once in Zurich (Swiss) and have honestly seen more luxurious cars there in one day than a whole year in Germany. You might already know that Swiss is high on my list to work after I finished my degree

I love snow, and winter!!! Do you have any resources for Switzerland too? 

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I have now spoken only about Germanies positive sides but it of course also has its downsides. I didn't speak about the downsides because it doesn't matter for your studies and they arent that huge. You wont even notice them because you haven´t lived here for years

I know that all Boars hasst Merkel. Denkst Ihr hat ein Vogel. 

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I think I have answered all the important questions. But really feel free to ask more questions, either here in the forum or through a private message.

You can reply in private message if you wish, but for public knowledge, and as I'm here replying now;

Do I need to be certified, or have a degree to work in the IT, or computer field in Germany? My parents want me to finish this Electrical Technology degree. I can switch to Computers if and only if I fail this math class because I would run out of time if I didn't. Also, I am 100% guaranteed a job in the US if I finish this degree because of the super low population of grads for this degree. (11 last spring. Yes, ELEVEN.)

I say Germany, but I am not turned off to Switzerland, Austria, Scandinavia, France, Eastern Europe, and so fourth. All the "good" European countries. 

On 10/28/2017 at 5:44 AM, Teddy07 said:

I would probably just search where you can get a student permit and study there for your Bachelors, preferably in a country that has university degrees in English because it will make your life so much easier. You can afterward just move to Germany or your prefer country to make your masters there in English as well.

Are a lot of companies demanding Master degrees? I am only getting an "Associates" or a 2 year degree. 

On 10/28/2017 at 6:06 AM, Bouzoo said:

German-speaking countries are a good start, as is is Ireland, have friends that landed jobs in Microsoft and Intel (iirc MS employees >30% of tech jobs in Ireland). UK is not a bad option as well if we're honest, but I'd suggest Ireland if you're really going mostly for a job. I have few cousins in Austria, good standard, lots of jobs. Afaik Sweden is looking for electrical engineers/technicians at this moment so check that up.

Do you mind asking your cousins in Austria how to get into work with these companies, or if they can name a few I can look into? If they ask specifics, I like Upper Austria. 

I searched up Sweden, and Stockholm is REALLY full of jobs. I'll keep my eyes there. Do you know if, or what their immigration/work website is? 

Ireland seems a bit harder and less common with jobs, but I'll keep searching. 

On 10/28/2017 at 7:03 AM, Captain Chaos said:

The only problem with German and French speaking countries is that they dub their TV shows.  That means that a lot of (usually older) people simply don't know English because they never had to use it.  Younger people don't seem to have that problem anymore though, so the language situation will only get better over time.

Haha, I saw south park, and how I met your mother in German. It's interesting to see the bad voice acting lol. 

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The Netherlands or Flanders (the Northern region of Belgium) is an option too.  People generally do speak English, but it is advised to try to learn Dutch (which is a difficult language, I have to admit) anyway.  But of course learning the local language is always recommended.

There's a Dutch speaking thread buried somewhere in the off topic. I can practice there. Thanks for the suggestion! Brussels is one of the cheapest places to live in Europe so I hear. 

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To get Belgian citizenship, you'd need to prove that your main residency was here for the past 5 years, that you speak one of the languages (In Belgium we have 3 different regions with their own language: Dutch, French and German) and that you have "genuine attachments" to the country (job, friends, family, investments, properties and/or debts).  If you have children under 18 at the time of becoming a citizen, they also get citizenship by default if they live with you. 

You can have dual citizenship if you want to, so you don't have to give up your US citizenship. 

"Here?" Are you a Belgian citizen? If so, can you advise me on the work website? For Austria it's ams.at

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To get Dutch citizenship, you have to have legally lived in The Netherlands for 5 years, but they are considering raising that to 7 years.  You'll have to give up your other nationalities, but exceptions are possible (for example Turkey makes it really hard to give up the Turkish nationality, so those people get exceptions).  Of course you'll need to speak Dutch too.

That's alright with me. I actually want this. I don't plan on going back to America. I would happily live the rest of my life in a small town somewhere in Europe with cows on the way to the grocery store. (My interpretation of places I've seen in Europe.  )

On 10/28/2017 at 10:01 AM, Ahoy Hoy said:

You wont get shit all of a job in most of the European countries if you dont speak the language. You have to be very worth while to a company for them to avoid the fact that you cant communicate with a vast majority of the company or customers. And with a basic university degree you wont have anything that someone from their home country can offer.

As I noted in the OP, I am very willing to learn the language of whatever country I go to. 

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Its probably a better idea to stay in america for like 3 to 5 years, go through jobs find the jobs youre good at and enjoy. In your spare time learn a language and also SAVE UP YOUR MONEY. When you move you need cash, banks in Europe probably wont give you loans since your not a resident you wont have employment. So when you move you need to have enough money to get a place to live have enough to buy food for possibly two months.

I'll save up as much as I can. I don't like credit cards. I currently have more Euros in my wallet than American dollars haha. I changed all my money before I left last time. 

The rest is in the bank. 

I have some of these "Pimmsleur" CDs for learning languages, and I am going to take German 1 & 2 next year in college. (They don't offer it in the spring  )

On 10/28/2017 at 12:06 PM, VikingGaming said:

Norway can be a risky move. While salaries here are quite decent for someone educated in the field, the cost of living is painfully high in the cities (especially in Oslo). Not speaking the language is generally not a huge concern, but most companies would appreciate if you would learn the language. I am not sure about the legal stuff when it comes to moving here, but I do not believe that having work is a must. 

I intend to learn the language of whatever country I go to. 

On 10/28/2017 at 12:06 PM, VikingGaming said:

Maybe check these links for more information:

 

From the tax agency/IRS: http://www.skatteetaten.no/en/International-pages/Felles-innhold-benyttes-i-flere-malgrupper/Articles/Reporting-a-move-to-Norway/?nav-veiviser=12924

https://www.nav.no/workinnorway/en/Guide+for+citizens+from+countries+outside+EU+and+EEA/Get+started+in+Norway/Apply+for+a+residence+permit

https://www.nav.no/workinnorway/en/Guide+for+Nordic+citizens/Get+started+in+Norway/Registering+your+move+to+Norway

Thank you very much!!! I read through several of the links, and will continue looking into it; VERY HELPFUL, THANK YOU!!!
I'm guessing you are Norwegian. May I PM you in the future for any further help I may need? 

 

 

Thanks to everyone for the help!!

So sorry for the delayed reply. I had to catch up on a homework and wanted to spend a long time replying to what you said. 

I'm going to send some of the information to my career services to see if they can help me figure this out, and contact some of the resources you provided me. Thank you again; you're dream-makers!!!

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

1 hour ago, fpo said:

"Here?" Are you a Belgian citizen? If so, can you advise me on the work website?

Yeah, I'm Belgian (Antwerp, the Flemish region)

 

For Flanders : https://www.vdab.be/

It's only in Dutch, so you'll probably want to run it through Google Translate or similar.

 

For Wallonia : https://www.leforem.be/

Same story, but this one is only in French

 

The Brussels region is bilingual, so you'll find jobs there on both.  If that's where you want to go, knowing Dutch as well as French is recommended. 

Brussels is home to the EU headquarters, so there's plenty of tech-related jobs in that area too. 

 

As for the cost of living, there are parts of Brussels that are cheap indeed.  Not sure you'd want to live there though. 

But no worries, you can always look for something 10 or 15 miles from Brussels.  The distances here are much smaller, 10 miles from the city center will look like a completely different region. 

Public transport is okay here.  Relatively cheap, plenty of connection.  That being said, traffic jams are very common, so your commute can take longer than expected.

 

[Teddy07]

22 hours ago, fpo said:

Switzerland is one of the top places in the world to live as well.

 

Switzerland is the best country in Europe in my eyes but you have to love snow and winter.

 

I would recommend against studying there simply because it is fucking expensive. My goal is to get my Masters degree in Germany or other EU countries and then move to Switzerland. EU citizens are allowed to work and live in Switzerland without any problems (freedom of movement). The requirements for EU citizens to work and live there are low as long as you find work there.

 

22 hours ago, fpo said:

I am interested in Electrical Technology, IT, programming, and electronic devices in general.

 

STEM field is the best choice in terms of job opportunities. I would only recommend you to study in this area because we, just like America does not have enough of STEM students. Which means there are more jobs than applicants for the most part. Just make your google search before because it is not true for every STEM subject but like a huge majority. Other subjects have way too many students especially now that more and more people study here in Germany.

 

Btw. STEM is called MINT here in Germany in case you run across this term with your google search.

MINT = mathematics, informatics (=IT degree), natural sciences and technology (= engineering)

 

Studying at a university level in the MINT degree requires you to take some higher math classes. They teach you everything but you do have to make the homework and do not give up like a good number of students. IT is hard work but that´s why so many give up. This also means great job opportunities once you got the degree.

 

22 hours ago, fpo said:

I am doing the equivilent of Fachhochschule (University of Applied Sciences - Google translate) in a semi-Uni format. (Community college) So it's not quite a "Tech School" but it's a practical school with more academic demand. I personally don't care much for the pay. With work comes pay. 

Are the works with companies like apprenticeships? (Lehrling? - Google Translate) My cousin's boyfriend is working with a machine company doing learning-I don't know if he is going to school as well. 

 

1

Nice then you already have a great education. Why do you want to study abroad when you are already going to college?

 

Apprenticeship (= Lehrling):

You apply at a company and work for a lower salary during your period of training (~2-3 years) and visit a school at one or two days a week. It is really easy not comparable to the FH/University. More like high school but literally everyone passes it. Apprenticeship is for people which leave school and want to work.

 

I, for example, did finish my apprenticeship and then made good on my high school certificate to be able to study. You do not make an apprenticeship when you got a degree from a Fachhochschule (=FH) or university because these degrees are higher than an apprenticeship.

You can say that an apprenticeship is another way to start working but it is considered lower education compared to FH/University

 

22 hours ago, fpo said:

Do I need an IT degree? I spoke to my parents and they really think I should stick with Electrical Technology (Circuit boards repair, and similar.) but I teach myself a lot of programming. If I may ask what you learn in informatik; what do you learn?

Is it

Networks, programming, switch routing, web administration, servers? That's what the Computer degree at my school teaches.

1

As I said earlier, everything within the STEM field is perfect. I just said IT degree as an example because this is an IT forum  

 

One thing you have to understand about Germany is that you need a certificate/degree for everything. You won't get a job without it even if you can do the work. The exception is programming because it is so much needed and you can learn it by yourself. Still, don´t expect big companies to hire you without a degree.

 

You can not compare a university degree in computer science(= Informatik in Germany) with job requirements. A degree in computer science teaches you of course programming (Java, C++,...) but the more important part is that you get the theoretical background knowledge. A job might only require ~30% of that knowledge but you are prepared for any IT job because you do not specialize in your Bachelor's degree. You can specialize in your master´s degree but it is not needed.  

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Unfortunately, I may be restricted to a 2 year degree (more on this below)

 

Are you sure? My friend from Marrocco and other foreigners, for example, get a 1-2 year residence permit when they want to study here. They can extend it as long as they show progress in their studies. Germany is known for their strictness in terms of Africans studying here so I think it should be doable for you.

 

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I am having a bit of trouble with math, so I want to stay a bit away from this. 

I am also very bad at math currenlty but I still study computer science in my second semester, well really the first since I started in summer and the regular first semester starts in winter. I did work before which means I forgot most of my math from school. It is all doable as long as you make every fucking homework and do not give up no matter how long it takes. Really you do not have to be a math genius but you have to be willing to improve your math skills when you want to succeed at a university degree in the STEM field.

My 6 pages math homework for this week took me ~9 hours because I had to look it up mostly but I learned a lot in the process. I am now certain that i made everything correct.

 

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I really want to go, however my parents want me to at minimum finish the degree I am doing here with Electrical Technology. 

It is not a bad advice because then you do not have to study here in Germany because your degree will be recognized as long as it is comparable to a German FH/university degree. You might have to take some classes if that is not the case but the ones which are comparable will be recognized so you do not have to do them again.

 

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That's really informative! Thank you very much about the language levels. I'll see how I can get to the highest on my own.  

Sure that is an option. You just have to take a language test when trying to apply for a university, FH or job. Do don´t need a C level when you simply want to work here. We have plenty of foreigners and refugees here that can not speak perfectly German. You just have to be willing to learn it.

 

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Is there an opportunity for people to go as an adult, for instance (bit more exagerated than my circumstances) a 31 year old American that isn't doing school to apply for education in Germany, and do that?

 

Sure.

The FH and university are not age restricted which means you can apply as long as you fulfill the requirements. Just look it up at a university because most requirements are the same across the FH/universities.

 

I am with 31 years and not even the oldest in my class. There are at least two guys that are ~40+ and some are 28+. Being older means that you have to be comfortable with studying with 20-year-olds. Age never came up in my university so far. Nobody says anything or treats you differently.

 

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I love snow, and winter!!! Do you have any resources for Switzerland too? 

No, as I said it is very expensive. I have my own flat in a smaller city here in Germany (75.000 citizens) and I am doing well with 900 € a month. Somebody from this forum makes his master in Zurich (Switzerland) and he said that he needs 1200 € and has only a hared flat. The problem with Switzerland might be that it has tough requirements if you want to work and or study there. As I said Europeans are free to move and only have to fulfill low requirements.

 

Austria is another great option and cheaper if you love snow and winter.

 

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I know that all Boars hasst Merkel. Denkst Ihr hat ein Vogel. 

I am a German conservative which means I am biased, keep that in mind!

 

The refugee crisis changed Germany in a great way. The left wing is very strong because our media is totally left. I personally do not voice my real opinion at the university because I want to go smoothly through it and there are a ton of left people there.

 

Criminality is low but rising especially assault, theft and burglary. One reason is that the German police is totally overwhelmed and do not have enough manpower. Germany is still safe just not as save as before. I personally notice the downward trend in my city.  I have nothing against foreigners as long as they integrate themselves but it doesn´t exactly feel welcoming when you hear a foreign language at fifth third corner. I miss the willingness to integrate from some people

 

That is a good part why I am leaving. I should mention that the people here in Germany are VERY welcoming to foreigners. Racism is low but it is there.

 

Would I despite that recommend Germany? Yes absolutely.

 

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Do I need to be certified, or have a degree to work in the IT, or computer field in Germany? My parents want me to finish this Electrical Technology degree. I can switch to Computers if and only if I fail this math class because I would run out of time if I didn't. Also, I am 100% guaranteed a job in the US if I finish this degree because of the super low population of grads for this degree. (11 last spring. Yes, ELEVEN.)

 

As I said before.

 

A degree STEM field = you got a good paying job in Germany no matter how bad your grades are.

 

I should also mention that when you finish your university/FH degree that you do not work in entry jobs. You do not work your way up. You start directly as an engineer for example because everything else would be wasted potential. Your work from that position upwards. Sure you won´t have your own projects when starting but you earn the regular salary and not some entry shit. 

 

I should mention that Germany also has something called "Duales Studium" which means you apply at a company and study. You receive ~500+ € a month from the company and study like everyone else but you work in the company in your semester breaks. You usually have to stay a few years after your degree until you can quit there. It is an option but not many companies offer Duales Studium.

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Switzerland, Austria, Scandinavia, France, Eastern Europe, and so fourth. All the "good" European countries. 

I would recommend against France. I would much rather pick the Netherlands and Denmark because they are comparable with Germany and Austria. France is behind in my eyes and has his own problems. Is it bad? No but just not as good.

 

I believe I have answered your questions. If i forgot something just ask.

[VikingGaming]

On 10/30/2017 at 10:48 PM, fpo said:

-snipped to preserve space-

 

I intend to learn the language of whatever country I go to. 

Thank you very much!!! I read through several of the links, and will continue looking into it; VERY HELPFUL, THANK YOU!!!
I'm guessing you are Norwegian. May I PM you in the future for any further help I may need? 

 

 

Thanks to everyone for the help!!

So sorry for the delayed reply. I had to catch up on a homework and wanted to spend a long time replying to what you said. 

I'm going to send some of the information to my career services to see if they can help me figure this out, and contact some of the resources you provided me. Thank you again; you're dream-makers!!!

I am indeed Norwegian myself  You can PM me here in the future if you have any questions, though I do not check this forum daily (as I am quite busy). If you have Discord or perhaps Stean, PM me your tag if you'd like as I'm usually on Discord 24/7 (and usually active on Steam for 4+ hours each day after work).

 

Best of luck!

 

 

[Guest]

Apologies as now I got sick... blah! (Sorry for all the excuses in my delayed replies.)

On 10/30/2017 at 6:36 PM, Captain Chaos said:

Yeah, I'm Belgian (Antwerp, the Flemish region)

 

For Flanders : https://www.vdab.be/

It's only in Dutch, so you'll probably want to run it through Google Translate or similar.

 

For Wallonia : https://www.leforem.be/

Same story, but this one is only in French

Thanks for these links! I looked into them a little, and sent them to my career center. 

On 10/30/2017 at 6:36 PM, Captain Chaos said:

The Brussels region is bilingual, so you'll find jobs there on both.  If that's where you want to go, knowing Dutch as well as French is recommended. 

Brussels is home to the EU headquarters, so there's plenty of tech-related jobs in that area too. 

 

As for the cost of living, there are parts of Brussels that are cheap indeed.  Not sure you'd want to live there though. 

Why wouldn't I want to live there? Bad area, or just noisy? 

Cheap areas, aren't always safe, so if you don't reply to this-I'll say that's why. 

On 10/30/2017 at 6:36 PM, Captain Chaos said:

But no worries, you can always look for something 10 or 15 miles from Brussels.  The distances here are much smaller, 10 miles from the city center will look like a completely different region. 

Public transport is okay here.  Relatively cheap, plenty of connection.  That being said, traffic jams are very common, so your commute can take longer than expected.

My cousin takes the train to a city everyday for her work, and I heard about people taking ferry's over water masses to get to work in other countries. I'm okay with the European transit. It's actually on time! (American transit is like Schrodinger's cat, but there might not be a box. Or a cat. It's luck of the draw.)

 

Thank you very much!

 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

Switzerland is the best country in Europe in my eyes but you have to love snow and winter.

I love snow and winter! 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

I would recommend against studying there simply because it is fucking expensive. My goal is to get my Masters degree in Germany or other EU countries and then move to Switzerland. EU citizens are allowed to work and live in Switzerland without any problems (freedom of movement). The requirements for EU citizens to work and live there are low as long as you find work there.

I would likely study in Germany, as it seems the most welcoming to take foreign students. 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

STEM field is the best choice in terms of job opportunities. I would only recommend you to study in this area because we, just like America does not have enough of STEM students. Which means there are more jobs than applicants for the most part. Just make your google search before because it is not true for every STEM subject but like a huge majority. Other subjects have way too many students especially now that more and more people study here in Germany.

 

Btw. STEM is called MINT here in Germany in case you run across this term with your google search.

MINT = mathematics, informatics (=IT degree), natural sciences and technology (= engineering)

 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

Studying at a university level in the MINT degree requires you to take some higher math classes. They teach you everything but you do have to make the homework and do not give up like a good number of students. IT is hard work but that´s why so many give up. This also means great job opportunities once you got the degree.

What kinds of mathematics are you learning in your University? I am currently taking Algebra & Trigonomentry for Pre-calculus college class, and it's now going well. In high school I had taken the same class and passed the state test. 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

Nice then you already have a great education. Why do you want to study abroad when you are already going to college?

I am not sure about the job opportunity I will have with an American degree as opposed to a German Degree. I don't know that it matters, but it seems more efficient to study in Germany for job opportunity than get a degree in US, and then try to search. 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

Apprenticeship (= Lehrling):

You apply at a company and work for a lower salary during your period of training (~2-3 years) and visit a school at one or two days a week. It is really easy not comparable to the FH/University. More like high school but literally everyone passes it. Apprenticeship is for people which leave school and want to work.

Are there apprenticeships for IT, and computers? Do Apprenticeships lead to that company hiring you? Or is it a luck that they MIGHT hire you? 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

One thing you have to understand about Germany is that you need a certificate/degree for everything. You won't get a job without it even if you can do the work. The exception is programming because it is so much needed and you can learn it by yourself. Still, don´t expect big companies to hire you without a degree.

That's good to know. I was pretty sure that Germany did this. 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

You can not compare a university degree in computer science(= Informatik in Germany) with job requirements. A degree in computer science teaches you of course programming (Java, C++,...) but the more important part is that you get the theoretical background knowledge. A job might only require ~30% of that knowledge but you are prepared for any IT job because you do not specialize in your Bachelor's degree. You can specialize in your master´s degree but it is not needed.  

Good! I don't know that I could do an entire master's degree in addition to my education I already did. 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

Are you sure? My friend from Marrocco and other foreigners, for example, get a 1-2 year residence permit when they want to study here. They can extend it as long as they show progress in their studies. Germany is known for their strictness in terms of Africans studying here so I think it should be doable for you.

In America college is EXPENSIVE ASF!!!! Because of this the government gives you some funding, and loans. You only get loans for about 4 years, and then you have to start paying them back after a short time. 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

I am also very bad at math currenlty but I still study computer science in my second semester, well really the first since I started in summer and the regular first semester starts in winter. I did work before which means I forgot most of my math from school. It is all doable as long as you make every fucking homework and do not give up no matter how long it takes. Really you do not have to be a math genius but you have to be willing to improve your math skills when you want to succeed at a university degree in the STEM field.

My 6 pages math homework for this week took me ~9 hours because I had to look it up mostly but I learned a lot in the process. I am now certain that i made everything correct.

What levels and types of math are required? What did you do? 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

The FH and university are not age restricted which means you can apply as long as you fulfill the requirements. Just look it up at a university because most requirements are the same across the FH/universities.

Do you know any of the common requirements? 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

No, as I said it is very expensive. I have my own flat in a smaller city here in Germany (75.000 citizens) and I am doing well with 900 € a month. Somebody from this forum makes his master in Zurich (Switzerland) and he said that he needs 1200 € and has only a hared flat. The problem with Switzerland might be that it has tough requirements if you want to work and or study there. As I said Europeans are free to move and only have to fulfill low requirements.

Does the school have its own housing? 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

Austria is another great option and cheaper if you love snow and winter.

Awesome! I'll keep it in mind!!! I love Austria. 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

A degree STEM field = you got a good paying job in Germany no matter how bad your grades are.

How guaranteed is this? Do you have exact numbers?

I only ask because the first college I went to said Companies came, and well... From the time of that statement, the last company to come was a minor sorta representative that came 2 years before. 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

I should also mention that when you finish your university/FH degree that you do not work in entry jobs. You do not work your way up. You start directly as an engineer for example because everything else would be wasted potential. Your work from that position upwards. Sure you won´t have your own projects when starting but you earn the regular salary and not some entry shit. 

That's awesome! How many companies do this? Only the European ones? In America they make you sorta starting depending on your previous experience, and they still train you to how THEY do things, not simply expecting you to know how to jump in. (At least that's what I hear from video game development studios)

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

I should mention that Germany also has something called "Duales Studium" which means you apply at a company and study. You receive ~500+ € a month from the company and study like everyone else but you work in the company in your semester breaks. You usually have to stay a few years after your degree until you can quit there. It is an option but not many companies offer Duales Studium.

Is this profitable? Or will I earn only 500 Euros a month like until I'm done? 

I saw some companies in Austria stating 3000 Euros a month. 

Is 3000 Euros a month a lot? I don't know the cost of living, and understand it can radically change. 

In America some people can like off 26,000 dollars a year-meanwhile others earn over 100,000 yearly and they still struggle to make ends meet. 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

I would recommend against France. I would much rather pick the Netherlands and Denmark because they are comparable with Germany and Austria. France is behind in my eyes and has his own problems. Is it bad? No but just not as good.

What problems exist within France that's behind? 

On 10/31/2017 at 3:54 PM, Teddy07 said:

I believe I have answered your questions. If i forgot something just ask.

Thank you very much!

On 11/2/2017 at 8:25 AM, VikingGaming said:

I am indeed Norwegian myself  You can PM me here in the future if you have any questions, though I do not check this forum daily (as I am quite busy). If you have Discord or perhaps Stean, PM me your tag if you'd like as I'm usually on Discord 24/7 (and usually active on Steam for 4+ hours each day after work).

 

Best of luck!

Thank you very much!

[dizmo]

You should check and see if Germany offers visa free stays. I could have lived in Great Britain for (iirc) 3 years without requiring any kind of work permit because my grandfather was an English citizen.

 

[Teddy07]

22 hours ago, fpo said:

I would likely study in Germany, as it seems the most welcoming to take foreign students.

 

That is true. Even my friend from Morocco wants to live here after his degree because the people here are so friendly to him. Racism against blacks and Africans is still here in Germany but low. They, unfortunately, got their bad reputation from a few African refugees that commit many crimes here and can not be deported back due to having no passport. Our left government also does not want to deport anyone if possible.

 

Other than that?  I don't see racism against other races. It must be very low especially in bigger cities.

 

If you worry about a Visa just check this website or many others. Google is a very good friend as you will notice when you are studying

 

https://www.study-in.de/en/plan-your-studies/requirements/visa-and-residence-permit_26604.php

 

Quote

What kinds of mathematics are you learning in your University?

 

I have to pass math for engineers 1 & 2 which is in the first semesters. I have to take another math course with entirely mathematical proofs in my second semester.

 

math for engineers 1 teaches you (some of that is known from school, so not much time is wasted with it): simultaneous equations, Eigenvalue problems, series expansions, differentiation and integration from a function with one variable, linear differential equations... basically basics higher math

 

math for engineers 2: basics of higher math (differentiation and integration from a function with more than one variable....)

 

Engineers also have to take math for engineers 3 & 4 in their Bachelor. They expand the knowledge cumulated in the first two courses.

 

Quote

I will have with an American degree as opposed to a German Degree.

There should be no difference in my eyes. I think it is also the same in Norway, Denmark, Netherlands... many first world countries have the same education in my eyes. The only difference I imagine at least from watching youtube videos is that you would like to have a degree from a reputable university in the US. This is not the case in Germany.

 

Quote

Are there apprenticeships for IT, and computers? Do Apprenticeships lead to that company hiring you? Or is it a luck that they MIGHT hire you? 

Yes, in many cases if you didn't totally suck. Some very small companies do not hire you because they use you as cheap labor but you will find elsewhere a job without a problem. Craftsmanships also have apprenticeship and pretty good ones actually. I have read that people from other countries (Spain, Italy...) really like to hire German craftsmen because of the good apprenticeship system. They do not have the same quality of education for their craftsmen.

 

I think you did ask the wrong question:

The better question is do you want to work for them? Many companies need craftsmen and IT people so you will have the choice if you are willing to move and do not look only 10 miles around your house if you know what I mean.

Craftsmen, IT guys and healthcare workers are really needed. Still, do your research because this is the case for most jobs in these industries but not but still not for all.

 

Quote

Good! I don't know that I could do an entire master's degree in addition to my education I already did. 

You can work with a Bachelors degree but you generally want to do the masters especially in the STEM field, for example, if you want to work as an engineer. I will definitely make my masters but my friend, for example, made his Bachelor in business informatics and works now for years. He didn't have any problems finding a job in his area. 

 

Quote

In America college is EXPENSIVE ASF!!!! Because of this the government gives you some funding, and loans. You only get loans for about 4 years, and then you have to start paying them back after a short time. 

3

my university costs:

-  ~150 € a semester for all my books but it is totally unnecessary. Most books are available in the library and can be borrowed for ~3 months. I just wanted to have my own.

- Universities also charges ~110 € each semester as fees but this includes a ticket for the local public transport. Most students either use public transport or their bicycle.

- just the regular stuff like paper...

- no fees for any courses. Many more difficult classes also include free tutorial each week where you can ask questions about the homework.

 

Quote

What levels and types of math are required? What did you do? 

I explained that above. I am working hard to improve my math skills. I have to take a minor in my Bachelors. I need to pass only 2-3 classes so I am thinking of taking Math if I really improved until then and passed my other math classes. I think having a solid math foundation is very important in computer science as well as in engineering.

But time will tell. I didn't do math for quite a few years so I suck balls but I still managed to make all my homework so far and most was correct. 

 

 

Quote

Do you know any of the common requirements? 

You just need a degree from I believe high school that allows you to study at a university. That is about it. Basically if you can study in the US than you can do it in Germany.

STEM Bachelors usually do not have other restrictions such as an average grade in high school. Some subjects such as Masters and other popular Bachelors degree have these restrictions simply because the university can not handle more students in these subjects. So they restrict access.

 

Quote

Does the school have its own housing? 

Yes universities, in general, have a dormitory outside the campus. The problem is that it is only a small number so getting one might be difficult (winter semester) or easier (summer semester). My university, for example, has 13.000 students and at the most place for 2.000 in their dormitories. 

 

Quote

How guaranteed is this? Do you have exact numbers?

Just google about job chances for a specific degree. There is plenty of solid information out there. I personally would not worry at all if you have a degree in the STEM field.

I am so confident that I am starting a computer science Bachelor at age 31. I don't worry about finding a job, at all. I worry slightly to get the degree

 

 

Quote

That's awesome! How many companies do this? Only the European ones? In America they make you sorta starting depending on your previous experience, and they still train you to how THEY do things, not simply expecting you to know how to jump in. (At least that's what I hear from video game development studios

1

Companies also train you at your job because the university cannot teach you stuff that you need for a specific job. You should be able to your university knowledge to learn the stuff quickly because you have solid background knowledge of your degree.

 

The initial training lasts from weeks to a few month but at most a half year in my eyes. Usually, the former employee teaches you the stuff or another employee of that department. Don't worry! If you got a degree in that field than you won't have any problems! You also do not earn less during that time. I have no inside knowledge of game studios.

 

I would assume (!!) that most companies in at least Europe do not offer entry jobs for students with a master degree but I have no concrete knowledge. I am certain for Austria and Swiss tho. I do not know how companies outside the EU handle that.  People usually do at least 1 internship during their university career where you are doing the entry jobs and learn the ropes. After all, letting a master student do entry jobs is a huge waste of potential for a company, right?

 

Quote

Is this profitable? Or will I earn only 500 Euros a month like until I'm done? 

I saw some companies in Austria stating 3000 Euros a month. 

Is 3000 Euros a month a lot? I don't know the cost of living, and understand it can radically change. 

In America some people can like off 26,000 dollars a year-meanwhile others earn over 100,000 yearly and they still struggle to make ends meet. 

1

You are mixing stuff up here. 500 euros is people who study and work during their semester breaks. As I said it is called Duales Studium but only a small number does this.

 

The 3000 € figure is for regular jobs. Still, this number seems low for someone who got a masters degree in STEM. I, for example, expect 46000 € gross a year when I got my master which means ~3800 € gross a month. The number might go up or down depending on the area and how expensive it is there. These number is just for the first year. It will go up relatively quickly with experience. This is also true for engineers.

 

Keep in mind that you will already earn in your first year as much as the average income in Germany:

https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesamtwirtschaftUmwelt/VerdiensteArbeitskosten/VerdiensteVerdienstunterschiede/Tabellen/Bruttomonatsverdienste.html

 

Here is a map with the cost of living in Europe: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/index/europe

OECD average annual wages: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AV_AN_WAGE

 

Just google there is tons of information about cost of living and average wages out there.

 

Quote

What problems exist within France that's behind? 

When you talk about France than you talk mostly about Paris because it is the center of the state if you know what I mean. There are also problems with migrants and racism there. The jobless rate is also high in my eyes if I remember right.  France Premier president also tries to unshackle the old laws in terms of jobs, pension... but he meets fierce resist from the strong unions. Just google or check the news.

 

[teddygala]

On 26/10/2017 at 11:40 PM, jeff.proto-_- said:

Another reason to go to the UK to work would be the currency, as the Great British Pound is worth more than the Euro.

Yeah you are right but I think it might not last long because of Brexit

[Guest]

On 11/6/2017 at 5:59 PM, dizmo said:

You should check and see if Germany offers visa free stays. I could have lived in Great Britain for (iirc) 3 years without requiring any kind of work permit because my grandfather was an English citizen.

I'll look into that. First however we're going to see if I can get German Citizenship through my grandparents. They're still alive, but almost Nearing the century mark. 

If I can get this, then I imagine things will be a lot easier. 

 

@Teddy07, You've given me a better picture for what salaries should be like and what I should expect for when it comes to the pay part of a hiring process. 

Your information is really helpful. 

 

On 11/8/2017 at 3:48 AM, teddygala said:

Yeah you are right but I think it might not last long because of Brexit

Your picture seems unreadable, or lost to me, but I'll be aware of this if I check out England. 

 

 

Final thoughts:

I am going to be working on citizenship, and see about studying abroad for a semester, however in case I cannot, I will switch my major to Computers IT & Programming, as opposed to my current Electrical Technician degree. With my computer degree I'll hopefully score a job in Europe, otherwise, I am going to also be working on building up a strong portfolio/company till I am taken in to Europe by one company or another. haha. 

 

Thanks to everyone for the assistance. You're all very helpful, and I appreciate all the kind help everyone provided. It was very nice-You didn't have to, and It's getting me as much headway towards my dream as I can get. Thank you all!!!!  

[Sylvie]

On 26/10/2017 at 10:43 PM, Biggerboot said:

I think it depends on the industry and/or company.  When I hear the term electrical technician I think of the 'on-site' guys doing the wiring and hardware installations.  But if you're into the eletrical engineering/R&D side it matters alot more where you go.  It can be very rewarding if you end up in the right place.  If you're into software/programming/IT, you can go almost anywhere that has industry, cuz they (companies) all need that stuff.

He's not wrong, I'm an Australian engineer who lives in the UK. 

[Teddy07]

6 hours ago, fpo said:

Final thoughts:

I am going to be working on citizenship, and see about studying abroad for a semester, however in case I cannot, I will switch my major to Computers IT & Programming, as opposed to my current Electrical Technician degree. With my computer degree I'll hopefully score a job in Europe, otherwise, I am going to also be working on building up a strong portfolio/company till I am taken in to Europe by one company or another. haha. 

 

Thanks to everyone for the assistance. You're all very helpful, and I appreciate all the kind help everyone provided. It was very nice-You didn't have to, and It's getting me as much headway towards my dream as I can get. Thank you all!!!!  

1

Yes, German citizenship should be your best bet because you can then stay and work anywhere in Europe without any problem.

 

German citizens have the entitlement to a student loan called Bafög. You have to apply for that and meet certain criteria such as your parents earning not enough money... I believe you are eligible when you have the German citizenship and the criteria are usually pretty light but it depends on the state. Bafög isn't a rip off as in America.

 

It is actually a good deal and you should definitely try to get it, as most students in Germany study with Bafög. People can get up to I believe 800 € a month depending on the income of your parents. I am unfortunately not eligible for my Bachelor but I will for my Masters if I make it that far One major advantage depends on the state but you generally do not have to pay back 100%. Bavaria caps the Bafög repayment at 10.000 -20.000 €. The rest is forgiven. Also, the interest rate is relatively low. Check the details for yourself because you can google yourself so I don't have to.

 

I would definitely recommend to check it out if you study in Germany. You can not apply for Bafög with an apprenticeship.

 

Quote

I am going to be working on citizenship, and see about studying abroad for a semester, however in case I cannot, I will switch my major to Computers IT & Programming, as opposed to my current Electrical Technician degree.

 

Your decision. You won't have a problem finding a job with either of these degrees.

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Sylvie said:

He's not wrong, I'm an Australian engineer who lives in the UK. 

Electrical engineer I presume? 

 

@Teddy07, I won’t have a problem getting any of those degrees in Germany? 

Would you say even if I failed German citizenship? (Even though I’ll likely pass) 

[Teddy07]

On 14.11.2017 at 4:28 PM, fpo said:

 I won’t have a problem getting any of those degrees in Germany? 

Would you say even if I failed German citizenship? (Even though I’ll likely pass) 

1

Well, getting degrees in computer science, engineering... is usually harder than those in let´s say economics. Hence not so many people do it.

What I am saying was that you won´t have a problem finding a good paying engineering or computer science job after you got your preferable Master degree.

You don't need German citizenship to work in Germany. All you need is a work permit no matter how you get it.

[Sylvie]

On 11/14/2017 at 3:28 PM, fpo said:

Electrical engineer I presume? 

 

@Teddy07, I won’t have a problem getting any of those degrees in Germany? 

Would you say even if I failed German citizenship? (Even though I’ll likely pass) 

Civil who works in a lot of different disciplines

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Teddy07 said:

Well, getting degrees in computer science, engineering... is usually harder than those in let´s say economics. Hence not so many people do it.

What I am saying was that you won´t have a problem finding a good paying engineering or computer science job after you got your preferable Master degree.

You don't need German citizenship to work in Germany. All you need is a work permit no matter how you get it.

 

On 11/14/2017 at 10:28 AM, fpo said:

 

@Teddy07, I won’t have a problem getting any of those JOBS in Germany? 

Would you say even if I failed German citizenship? (Even though I’ll likely pass) 

Sorry, I meant JOBS. I was tired. 

I won't have a problem really with the American degree you think? 

[Teddy07]

1 hour ago, fpo said:

 

Sorry, I meant JOBS. I was tired. 

I won't have a problem really with the American degree you think? 

yes!

There is an official process where you can get an official acknowledgment of your foreign degree. It is officially equal to a German degree once you got that. For example, if your engineering degree will be acknowledged then you are officially an engineer in Germany and can do all the work a German one does. I believe you should get a masters degree in engineering and computer science because it is generally recommended for engineers and computer science. Getting a job with a Bachelor is possible but not recommended.

You might have to take a few classes or so depending on the difference. I don't think there is a difference between German and US degrees

 

Many people actually do that because many refugees got foreign degrees. So the processes aren't that rare at all. Here is a website: https://www.anerkennung-in-deutschland.de/html/en/index.php

 

edit: To make it absolutely clear: You should 100% get an official acknowledgment of your US degree. Always, no exception! Even if you don't want to work in this field anymore. It is always helpful when you got more degrees and such. It will be helpful in salary negotiations because you can prove that you have more valuable skills and knowledge that the company should value

 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Teddy07 said:

yes!

There is an official process where you can get an official acknowledgment of your foreign degree. https://www.anerkennung-in-deutschland.de/html/en/index.php

Thanks!! I'll do that as soon as I get my degree!!

19 hours ago, Teddy07 said:

edit: To make it absolutely clear: You should 100% get an official acknowledgment of your US degree. Always, no exception! Even if you don't want to work in this field anymore. It is always helpful when you got more degrees and such. It will be helpful in salary negotiations because you can prove that you have more valuable skills and knowledge that the company should value

 

 

Just a side note-does it support Associate's degrees? My degree is only a 2 year associates. 

[Teddy07]

9 hours ago, fpo said:

Thanks!! I'll do that as soon as I get my degree!!

 

Just a side note-does it support Associate's degrees? My degree is only a 2 year associates. 

You should really inform yourself about the official acknowledgment because I know very little about it. 

 

What I want to say in the end is:

I put official acknowledgment into play because you might not know that it exists. It is now your turn to decide whether you want to use it or not. I have zero information if you need it or not and do not pretend to know otherwise. 

 

Our  FH/university system offers only a 3-year bachelor and a 2-year master after your Bachelor. Other degrees in engineering and the IT field do not exist anymore!

 

What I can say however is that if you want to study in Germany then you can get credit for some courses in a very simple process. If your degree that you want to study in Germany has classes that cover the same topics from classes that you took in the US then you can get credit for them. This means won´t have to take them again in Germany. It is an option! It is totally up to you to decide if you want the credit or not. It really depends on university to university how much they will give you credit because universities in Germany offer often the same degree but demand that you take slightly different courses. The core of the degree, however, is always the same, give or take a few percent.

What do you have to do for the credit? Simply ask the examination office at your German university. They will tell you which paperwork they need from you. You don't have to take tests or anything similar. You just have to provide paperwork that states which topics your US classes covered.

 

A friend from Marocco could have gotten credit for some of his courses in his homeland but he opted not to due to bad grades. I personally switched the University and got the credit but not 100% of my previous classes. So yeah it is simple!

 

You can also get credit if you want to switch your another field of study. For example, I study computer science but I also have to take a minor and get ~15-30 credits there (180 credits are needed to get your Bachelor and courses are between 5-9 points in general; one semester is 30 points hence 3 years).  One of the minors that are possible, as an example, is engineering informatics where you have to pass ~3+ engineering classes to get the 15 points. You could get credit for these classes in your case.