Apple has opened every version of macOS and iOS to the public

[vanished]

Just now, hey_yo_ said:

Yeah but activation is probably the reason why Microsoft hasn't added it yet

 

their activation is so broken... if you want proof, just talk either to anyone who has a legit license and can't get it to work, or to anyone who's managed to hack it with incredibly minimal effort, even using sometimes nothing more than the installer itself.

[DrMacintosh]

1 minute ago, hey_yo_ said:

activation

Don’t even get me started with activation

[captain_to_fire]

Just now, Ryan_Vickers said:

their activation is so broken... if you want proof, just talk either to anyone who has a legit license and can't get it to work, or to anyone who's managed to hack it with incredibly minimal effort, even using sometimes nothing more than the installer itself.

I think I only encountered activation twice, one with Windows XP back in 2004 and with the Windows 7 copy I bought in 2009. Not that I have problems with it other than it's an extra step but from what I read and heard especially for people who build PCs, activation is a pain in the butt from a simple hardware change like upgrading the storage from a hard drive to SSD.

[vanished]

Just now, hey_yo_ said:

I think I only encountered activation twice, one with Windows XP back in 2004 and with the Windows 7 copy I bought in 2009. Not that I have problems with it other than it's an extra step but from what I read and heard especially for people who build PCs, activation is a pain in the butt from a simple hardware change like upgrading the storage from a hard drive to SSD.

I heard that you could use a disk designed to upgrade vista to 7 (I think those were the versions in question) to install a fully licensed windows 7 from scratch.  Just use the upgrader to install a system, which would be unlicensed, and then install again over top of it, which would cause it to activate fully  

[captain_to_fire]

1 minute ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I heard that you could use a disk designed to upgrade vista to 7 (I think those were the versions in question) to install a fully licensed windows 7 from scratch.  Just use the upgrader to install a system, which would be unlicensed, and then install again over top of it, which would cause it to activate fully  

I didn't know that and I would be very happy if I did back in 2009. All I know is I was very happy as if it's Christmas time when I bought a legit copy of Windows 7 Home Premium 32-bit back in college because of these ads. I'm a bit of a sucker back then.

Not to mention it has TRIM support out of the box at launch. Apple only added TRIM two years later as a software update,

[vanished]

Just now, hey_yo_ said:

I didn't know that and I would be very happy if I did back in 2009. All I know is I was very happy as if it's Christmas time when I bought a legit copy of Windows 7 Home Premium 32-bit back in college because of these ads. I'm a bit of a sucker back then.

oh yeah those "it was my idea" commercials... I never found them particularly useful or interesting tbh.  I get what they were going for but it just wasn't a hit for me.

Just now, hey_yo_ said:

Not to mention it has TRIM support out of the box at launch. Apple only added TRIM two years later as a software update,

When did Apple first offer an SSD in one of their devices?  They wouldn't have had any reason to support it prior to that, would they?  

[captain_to_fire]

2 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

oh yeah those "it was my idea" commercials... I never found them particularly useful or interesting tbh.  I get what they were going for but it just wasn't a hit for me.

"Windows 8 is not the customers' idea"

I just realized that Windows 8 kinda looked like tetris

3 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

When did Apple first offer an SSD in one of their devices?  They wouldn't have had any reason to support it prior to that, would they?  

The MacBook Air in 2011 I think? It was their first laptop with full SSD. The first MacBook Air in 2008 I think still uses 5400 rpm drives.

[vanished]

Just now, hey_yo_ said:

The MacBook Air in 2011 I think? It was their first laptop with full SSD. The first MacBook Air in 2008 I think still uses 5400 rpm drives.

Hm, not bad, they would have definitely been into it before the vast majority of people then.  And this does line up with the "2 years after Windows 7"

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, hey_yo_ said:

"Windows 8 is not the customers' idea"

 

I miss that OS.

 

Nevermind that my HTPC runs it.

[captain_to_fire]

15 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

I miss that OS.

To be fair, if you strip away the Metro UI, the desktop and under the hood improvements in Windows 8 surpasses Windows 7.

• native USB 3 support
• native mounting of ISO files
• built in anti-virus
• much detailed Task Manager
• faster boot times even on a HDD
• Improved cut, copy and paste of files
• UI improvements in File Explorer like the ribbon
• Hyper-V to a consumer OS
• reduced restarts for Windows Update
• Better recovery options after a BSOD or a system crash

[Drak3]

Just now, hey_yo_ said:

To be fair, if you strip away the Metro UI, the desktop and under the hood improvements in Windows 8 surpasses Windows 7.

• native USB 3 support
• native mounting of ISO files
• built in anti-virus
• much detailed Task Manager
• faster boot times even on a HDD
• Improved cut, copy and paste of files
• UI improvements in File Explorer like the ribbon
• Hyper-V to a consumer OS
• reduced restarts for Windows Update
• Better recovery options after a BSOD or a system crash

No, I miss 8. Not the under the hood improvements. The entire package. It was great on 2-in-1s and wasn't horrible on desktop for me either.

[Master Disaster]

As is typical with Apple, this move isn't as consumer friendly as it seems on the surface.

 

Apple released the code under its own uber restrictive license which basically means the only thing developers are allowed to do with it is look at it.

[handymanshandle]

2 hours ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

...I'm legitimately speechless. +1 for Apple!

Well it's one way to divorce yourself from the original empire that Jobs made but this change of direction I think is generally a positive thing, maybe it's a first step to them allowing non Apple hardware to run Apple software.

[handymanshandle]

33 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

I miss that OS.

 

Nevermind that my HTPC runs it.

Eh Windows 8 was largely okay, but I've grown to like Windows 10. Despite its early controversies with telemetry I've kinda just gotten over it but I'm also running Win10 Education. I kinda want to format my SSD and start fresh with it but idk I'm not too concerned lol.

 

8.1 was better.

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, wcreek said:

maybe it's a first step to them allowing non Apple hardware to run Apple software.

Unless Cook wants to expose the truth, that OS X is no better than most other operating systems, including Windows, when it comes to stability, it's doubtful.

[DrMacintosh]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

that OS X is no better than most other operating systems, including Windows, when it comes to stabilit

 

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

doubtful.

 

[handymanshandle]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Unless Cook wants to expose the truth, that OS X is no better than most other operating systems, including Windows, when it comes to stability, it's doubtful.

Well one can hope. 

 

I would be more than interested to use Final Cut Pro X and Motion 5 on a Ryzen 7 1700 rig that I'm planning on building. Though maybe a GPU upgrade would be in order if that were to happen. I also don't want to play around with hackintosh and AMD isn't supported anyways lol

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, DrMacintosh said:

 

 

We can look at the fact that OS X is not stable on AMD hardware without heavy modding, and OS X doesn't see the same stability Apple sees if we run it on extremely similar hardware spec that isn't Apple's hardware.

Just now, wcreek said:

Well one can hope. 

 

I would be more than interested to use Final Cut Pro X and Motion 5 on a Ryzen 7 1700 rig that I'm planning on building. Though maybe a GPU upgrade would be in order if that were to happen. I also don't want to play around with hackintosh and AMD isn't supported anyways lol

Not really. Every single merit of OS X comes down to the fact that Apple doesn't allow it to run on hardware outside of their own. It'd be like reverting to the early Vista days for anyone running OS X on non Apple hardware.

Me for anyone running AMD hardware.

 

Apple can keep their OS on just their hardware, and let the really dedicated run it on alternative hardware if they want.

[Master Disaster]

7 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

We can look at the fact that OS X is not stable on AMD hardware without heavy modding, and OS X doesn't see the same stability Apple sees if we run it on extremely similar hardware spec that isn't Apple's hardware.

Not really. Every single merit of OS X comes down to the fact that Apple doesn't allow it to run on hardware outside of their own. It'd be like reverting to the early Vista days for anyone running OS X on non Apple hardware.

Me for anyone running AMD hardware.

 

Apple can keep their OS on just their hardware, and let the really dedicated run it on alternative hardware if they want.

It's cute that you think Apple hardware is somehow sprinkled with pixie dust to make it different than PC hardware but the reality is that Apple hardware is 100% identical to PC hardware.

 

The only factors stopping macOS from running on any Intel PC is Apples proprietary EFI implementation and the fact Apple only add KEXT support for hardware they use.

 

There are already rumors that Apple will drop the KEXT system entirely with 10.14 so that might be one restriction down. The EFI restrictions can easily be circumvented in software.

[Drak3]

Just now, Master Disaster said:

It's cute that you think Apple hardware is somehow sprinkled with pixie dust to make it different than PC hardware but the reality is that Apple hardware is 100% identical to PC hardware.

 

The only factors stopping macOS from running on any Intel PC is Apples proprietary EFI implementation and the fact Apple only add KEXT support for hardware they use.

Apple custom designs most of the hardware on their devices. They don't manufacture the CPU or NAND themselves. Eveything else has 'close enough' equivalents in hardware available to manufacturers of aftermarket components and Linux/Windows OEMs. But it is not 100% identical.

[79wjd]

4 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

It's cute that you think Apple hardware is somehow sprinkled with pixie dust to make it different than PC hardware but the reality is that Apple hardware is 100% identical to PC hardware.

 

The only factors stopping macOS from running on any Intel PC is Apples proprietary EFI implementation and the fact Apple only add KEXT support for hardware they use.

 

There are already rumors that Apple will drop the KEXT system entirely with 10.14 so that might be one restriction down. The EFI restrictions can easily be circumvented in software.

And it's incredibly naive of you to think that there aren't quite large variations between hardware even of the same type -- there is a reason why there are edge cases where people run into problems where there shouldn't be any. There's a reason why you can manage to get a specific 7700k that runs into problems on a specific motherboard, or a specific PSU and GPU that happens to have coil whine. One of the merits of Windows is that it's compatible with everything -- but that merit is also its biggest drawback and one of MacOS's greatest strengths. 

[Master Disaster]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Apple custom designs most of the hardware on their devices. They don't manufacture the CPU or NAND themselves. Eveything else has 'close enough' equivalents in hardware available to manufacturers of aftermarket components and Linux/Windows OEMs. But it is not 100% identical.

Nope, Apple custom design their own logic boards and firmware, EVERYTHING that is plugged into the logic board is off the shelf PC hardware. You really think Intel make 6700HQs that are Apple specific? That SK Hynix make them specific ram modules? They buy the exact same stuff as everyone else does, this is why people like Luis Rossman can replace broken components with off the shelf replacements and why my desktop 6700K can run macOS High Sierra.

 

3 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

And it's incredibly naive of you to think that there aren't quite large variations between hardware even of the same type -- there is a reason why there are edge cases where people run into problems where there shouldn't be any. There's a reason why you can manage to get a specific 7700k that runs into problems on a specific motherboard, or a specific PSU and GPU that happens to have coil whine. One of the merits of Windows is that it's compatible with everything -- but that merit is also its biggest drawback and one of MacOS's greatest strengths. 

I don't think I ever denied this did I? Besides that I fail to see how variances in hardware is relevant to a discussion around proprietary software and hardware?

[79wjd]

4 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Nope, Apple custom design their own logic boards and firmware, EVERYTHING that is plugged into the logic board is off the shelf PC hardware. You really think Intel make 6700HQs that are Apple specific? That SK Hynix make them specific ram modules? They buy the exact same stuff as everyone else does, this is why people like Luis Rossman can replace broken components with off the shelf replacements and why my desktop 6700K can run macOS High Sierra.

 

I don't think I ever denied this did I? Besides that I fail to see how variances in hardware is relevant to a discussion around proprietary software and hardware?

A lot of the replacement parts Rossman uses come off of dead/donor Apple boards because he can't realistically get them any other way. 

 

You were trying to make the point that Apple hardware is nothing special and that any PC hardware would work just as well. But the fact of the matter is that it wouldn't as there is variance in components. So no, there's no pixie dust -- just validation for every component combination. 

[Drak3]

8 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

EVERYTHING that is plugged into the logic board is off the shelf PC hardware.

Apple designs their own:

Audio chipset

SSD controller

Thunderbolt controller

USB Controller

 

And many of the other miscellaneous microcontrollers that are on their logic board. There are alternatives, but they're not off the shelf hardware.

 

And the dGPUs Apple currently use aren't off the shelf either, they're derived from the Radeon FirePro/WX lineup, but are modified specifically for Apple's machines. Much like the Surface Book's 940mx or the Alienware Alpha's 860M+.

13 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

You really think Intel make 6700HQs that are Apple specific? That SK Hynix make them specific ram modules?

Maybe reread my comment.

 

14 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

this is why people like Luis Rossman can replace broken components with off the shelf replacements

Not everything in Apple's products can be replaced with true off the shelf parts without incurring issues.

 

15 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

why my desktop 6700K can run macOS High Sierra.

Not without introducing instability.

[Master Disaster]

Just now, djdwosk97 said:

A lot of the replacement parts Rossman uses come off of dead/donor Apple boards because he can't realistically get them any other way. 

 

You were trying to make the point that Apple hardware is nothign special and that any PC hardware would work just as well. But the fact of the matter is that it wouldn't as there is variance in components. So no, there's no pixie dust -- just validation for every component combination. 

The stuff you refer to are the logic components, these are the components used by Apple when designing the motherboards and are not readily available to repairers. Again Apple scratch design their own boards and yes, they do use chips on the boards that are either proprietary or at least not readily available but if a GPU or RAM module was to die he could very easily use any identical replacement part from any PC.

 

OK, that's a fair point. Apple do indeed validate every configuration before manufacturing begins but your ignoring the fact that Apple will deal with component variance too. Using your example from earlier, if Apple buys a pallette of 100,000 7700Ks is safe to assume a percentage of them will be faulty or dead entirely, that's just the nature of electronics. The difference is Apple will pick this up during manufacturing or testing and those machines will never make it to market. It's not that Apples process removes this factor, just that Apples process hides  it from public view.