Headphone + amp for 600$

[Wolf_Lbh]

On 8/19/2017 at 11:34 PM, spwath said:

 Valhalla 2 is a great tube amp. New set of tubes, $20. There is a reason tube amps are so popular.

 

 the massdrop Hifiman is no doubt a great deal. But not easy to drive.

8 minutes ago, KaminKevCrew said:

I'm very well aware of how much the Fulla 2 costs. Evidently, you're not aware of the fact that Schiit themselves sell a hybrid tube amp at $169 (The Vali 2 which - had you paid attention - you would realize is the amp that was previously mentioned)

http://www.schiit.com/products/valhalla-tube-set

From now on you only get one correction per post to minimize the amount of my life you waste by being a moron.

[spwath]

1 hour ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

http://www.schiit.com/products/valhalla-tube-set

From now on you only get one correction per post to minimize the amount of my life you waste by being a moron.

 ok, i was wrong about price, still not bad.

 

 why quote kaminkevcrew, what did he say "wrong"

[Wolf_Lbh]

29 minutes ago, spwath said:

 ok, i was wrong about price, still not bad.

 

 why quote kaminkevcrew, what did he say "wrong"

He was talking about the Vali 2 that costs $169 and he claimed we had been talking about it all along...

Even if he wanted to bring that up I would point out that is still considerably more expensive than the Fulla 2, more fragile, and costs an additional $20 to fix whenever the tubes died meanwhile you could count on the Fulla 2 to last considerably longer and by the time it dies a new amp for $100 would have considerably better features. So you could pay $190 for the tube amp + a new set of tubes or have a dac that lasts far longer without having to be gentle with it and then just buy a whole new one whenever it eventually dies that would be even better than the previous and only cost roughly the same as his option.

Two thumbs down for tubes.

[spwath]

6 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

He was talking about the Vali 2 that costs $169 and he claimed we had been talking about it all along...

Even if he wanted to bring that up I would point out that is still considerably more expensive than the Fulla 2, more fragile, and costs an additional $20 to fix whenever the tubes died meanwhile you could count on the Fulla 2 to last considerably longer and by the time it dies a new amp for $100 would have considerably better features. So you could pay $190 for the tube amp + a new set of tubes or have a dac that lasts far longer without having to be gentle with it and then just buy a whole new one whenever it eventually dies that would be even better than the previous and only cost roughly the same as his option.

Two thumbs down for tubes.

 you just are not getting it.

 Valhalla is better built than fulla, and will probably have a longer life, with buying only one set of replacement tubes.

 

 amp tech hasn't improved.  you can get lots of features, but a good amp does one thing. Amplify.

 

 the only gentleness i have to do with Valhalla is not intentionally hit it (not that hard...)

 

 if you do what you are doing  you will be stuck in mid fi purgatory forever.

[Wolf_Lbh]

49 minutes ago, spwath said:

 you just are not getting it.

 Valhalla is better built than fulla, and will probably have a longer life, with buying only one set of replacement tubes.

 

 amp tech hasn't improved.  you can get lots of features, but a good amp does one thing. Amplify.

 

 the only gentleness i have to do with Valhalla is not intentionally hit it (not that hard...)

 

 if you do what you are doing  you will be stuck in mid fi purgatory forever.

HAHA what?

Do you even listen to the stuff you say?

"A good amp does one thing. Amplify."

So then why spend $350 + $40 for replacement tubes on one amp when another good amp only costs $100? Also I was talking about the Vali 2 for the benifit of @KaminKevCrew when I made the price comparison in my previous post. If you want to do the same comparison witth the Valhalla 2 then you could buy FOUR Fulla 2s for that price. That's probably literal decades of use.

Tubes simply can't compete. They are purely a waste of money.

[spwath]

5 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

HAHA what?

Do you even listen to the stuff you say?

"A good amp does one thing. Amplify."

So then why spend $350 + $40 for replacement tubes on one amp when another good amp only costs $100? Also I was talking about the Vali 2 for the benifit of @KaminKevCrew when I made the price comparison in my previous post. If you want to do the same comparison witth the Valhalla 2 then you could buy FOUR Fulla 2s for that price. That's probably literal decades of use.

Tubes simply can't compete. They are purely a waste of money.

 because that one thing they do is difficult.  They can do it badly or  great. And in between.

 

 tubes simply can compete. That's why that still exist.

[Wolf_Lbh]

6 minutes ago, spwath said:

 because that one thing they do is difficult.  They can do it badly or  great. And in between.

 

 tubes simply can compete. That's why that still exist.

$1000 hdmi cables still exist and the presidential election came down to Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump... do you really want to use the argument that because something is there, or even popular, that makes it good?

Amps have gotta be the easiest thing to pick out in a setup. For $100 you can have an amazing one or for $350 you can have one that is maybe slightly more amazing and some issues.

[spwath]

11 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

$1000 hdmi cables still exist and the presidential election came down to Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump... do you really want to use the argument that because something is there, or even popular, that makes it good?

Amps have gotta be the easiest thing to pick out in a setup. For $100 you can have an amazing one or for $350 you can have one that is maybe slightly more amazing and some issues.

 no, that was a bad argument,i agree.

 

 but your arguments are just wrong. The fulla is amazing, for the price. Valhalla is miles better though.

[Wolf_Lbh]

6 minutes ago, spwath said:

 no, that was a bad argument,i agree.

 

 but your arguments are just wrong. The fulla is amazing, for the price. Valhalla is miles better though.

If it is better the margin is so small that some people can't even tell the difference, and the price for that margin is $250 more and you have to be gentle with it and replace the tubes when it dies.

It certainly isn't the difference between mid-fi hellish limbo and hi-fi. Both are perfectly acceptable in any hi-fi setup. If you absolutely wanted to make the case for tubes then the Vali 2 would probably be a lot better because at least you could say then that the small difference and extra handling issues only costs $70 more.

But to tell someone with a $600 budget to spend $350 of it on an amp cause tubes is simply irresponsible.

[spwath]

8 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

If it is better the margin is so small that some people can't even tell the difference, and the price for that margin is $250 more and you have to be gentle with it and replace the tubes when it dies.

It certainly isn't the difference between mid-fi hellish limbo and hi-fi. Both are perfectly acceptable in any hi-fi setup. If you absolutely wanted to make the case for tubes then the Vali 2 would probably be a lot better because at least you could say then that the small difference and extra handling issues only costs $70 more.

But to tell someone with a $600 budget to spend $350 of it on an amp cause tubes is simply irresponsible.

 we have argued for long enough coming back to  the same points.

i stand by what i said.

 

 I'm out, bye.

[KaminKevCrew]

19 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

If it is better the margin is so small that some people can't even tell the difference, and the price for that margin is $250 more and you have to be gentle with it and replace the tubes when it dies.

It certainly isn't the difference between mid-fi hellish limbo and hi-fi. Both are perfectly acceptable in any hi-fi setup. If you absolutely wanted to make the case for tubes then the Vali 2 would probably be a lot better because at least you could say then that the small difference and extra handling issues only costs $70 more.

But to tell someone with a $600 budget to spend $350 of it on an amp cause tubes is simply irresponsible.

Actually, if you had ever heard a high end amp, you'd know that there is indeed an audible difference between different amps. Besides, you clearly don't seem to realize that diminishing returns is a fact of life. Everything gets exponentially more expensive the higher end you go. I like how you keep saying that you have to take extra good care of tube amps, like people just throw around their 10lb+ amps. That's not how most of us *adults* treat our gear. Your claim that there isn't a big jump between mid-fi and hi-fi smacks of inexperience. Nothing wrong with that, to be sure. I just wouldn't go claiming that something is false just because you haven't experienced it.

44 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

$1000 hdmi cables still exist and the presidential election came down to Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump... do you really want to use the argument that because something is there, or even popular, that makes it good?

Amps have gotta be the easiest thing to pick out in a setup. For $100 you can have an amazing one or for $350 you can have one that is maybe slightly more amazing and some issues.

Why are amps easy to pick out? Different amps sound better on different headphones. It's really not terribly simple and can involve a lot of trial and error.

1 hour ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

HAHA what?

Do you even listen to the stuff you say?

"A good amp does one thing. Amplify."

So then why spend $350 + $40 for replacement tubes on one amp when another good amp only costs $100? Also I was talking about the Vali 2 for the benifit of @KaminKevCrew when I made the price comparison in my previous post. If you want to do the same comparison witth the Valhalla 2 then you could buy FOUR Fulla 2s for that price. That's probably literal decades of use.

Tubes simply can't compete. They are purely a waste of money.

Because the Valhalla 2 is simply a much better amp. Tubes absolutely can compete. It's really starting to sound like you've never listened to a decently high end tube amp before. Also, the whole decades of use thing is kind of ridiculous - very few people who buy a $100 amp/DAC combo are going to use it for decades without trying something else.

1 hour ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

He was talking about the Vali 2 that costs $169 and he claimed we had been talking about it all along...

Even if he wanted to bring that up I would point out that is still considerably more expensive than the Fulla 2, more fragile, and costs an additional $20 to fix whenever the tubes died meanwhile you could count on the Fulla 2 to last considerably longer and by the time it dies a new amp for $100 would have considerably better features. So you could pay $190 for the tube amp + a new set of tubes or have a dac that lasts far longer without having to be gentle with it and then just buy a whole new one whenever it eventually dies that would be even better than the previous and only cost roughly the same as his option.

Two thumbs down for tubes.

Two thumbs down for someone who is talking about something they've never tried.

3 hours ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

http://www.schiit.com/products/valhalla-tube-set

From now on you only get one correction per post to minimize the amount of my life you waste by being a moron.

Again, I can do whatever I want. I'm not the one wasting your time here, and neither is Spwath. You're wasting your own time here. Please don't try to put that on any of us...

[Wolf_Lbh]

2 minutes ago, KaminKevCrew said:

Actually, if you had ever heard a high end amp, you'd know that there is indeed an audible difference between different amps. Besides, you clearly don't seem to realize that diminishing returns is a fact of life. Everything gets exponentially more expensive the higher end you go. I like how you keep saying that you have to take extra good care of tube amps, like people just throw around their 10lb+ amps. That's not how most of us *adults* treat our gear. Your claim that there isn't a big jump between mid-fi and hi-fi smacks of inexperience. Nothing wrong with that, to be sure. I just wouldn't go claiming that something is false just because you haven't experienced it.

Why are amps easy to pick out? Different amps sound better on different headphones. It's really not terribly simple and can involve a lot of trial and error.

Because the Valhalla 2 is simply a much better amp. Tubes absolutely can compete. It's really starting to sound like you've never listened to a decently high end tube amp before. Also, the whole decades of use thing is kind of ridiculous - very few people who buy a $100 amp/DAC combo are going to use it for decades without trying something else.

Two thumbs down for someone who is talking about something they've never tried.

Again, I can do whatever I want. I'm not the one wasting your time here, and neither is Spwath. You're wasting your own time here. Please don't try to put that on any of us...

1) I have heard high end amps. There is a barely audible difference.
2) I'm arguing that diminishing returns is exactly the damn reason you shouldn't spend an extra $250 on a marginal improvement.
3) Tube amps are fragile carefully calibrated glass devices that sit in busy desk areas for years. It is totally possible for something to damage it and being in a 24/7 state of carefulness is a negative.
4) I never said that the difference between mid-fi and hi-fi wasn't big, I said the schiit fulla 2 was hi-fi and at an excellent price.
5) Amps are not supposed to color the sound. There are 3 kinds of amp: Bad, Great, and slightly better. That makes them extremely easy to pick out.
6) I said if you buy FOUR OF THEM FOR THE SAME PRICE AS ONE TUBE AMP then they will last decades, naturally in that time the technology curve will show that amps will improve and probably get one new competing or revolutionary technology so if you upgrade as you go that $400 will go a lot further broken up over decades than it would blowing it all now.
7) I have tried tube amps, don't see what all the fuss is about.
8) Fine whatever. I'll keep taking apart anything you say until you admit you're wrong.

[Masada02]

Guys, opinions are not facts and audio is a very expensive opinion based hobby. It's all subjective and once you get into the hi-fi/summit-fi world the only things that matter are your own opinion/experience and money. It's my opinion that for ~$500 you could buy a headphone setup that will get you 90% the way there, but it's that last 10% that people (who generally have had a glimpse of) lust for and are willing to drop real stacks on.

 

Side note: tube amps have a huge following for a reason, get over it.

[Monte_Carlo]

I'm going to go ahead and throw this option out here.  Consider going with a solid state Schiit stack.  The Magni/Modi combo is a fairly great starter setup for the price.  My stack is the newer 2 Uber line which actually worked out better than I expected thankfully. They work quite nicely with my HD650s, so I do have some first hand experience in this case, and a solid 2 year warranty is nothing to sneeze at.  I believe their higher end products are 5 year warranties? 

 

The Schiit Stack is an excellent starting point I should have looked into originally.  You can always upgrade to a Valhalla 2 in the future when you feel the need to expand, or if you are handy with electronics, you can always buy the Bottlehead Crack kit.  Not 100% sure if they ship to the EU, but rumor has it the Crack is one of the best possible pairings for the HD650 without breaking the bank.  Also it has quite a range of options for modifications and tube rolling.  (Then again the Vali 2 seems like a great starter for tube rolling... sooooooo yeah, can't really make the wrong choice here.)

 

I had a fairly bad run with budget hybrid tube amps.  I had a HiFiMAN EF2A, which ultimately didn't cause too much long term happiness...  (Granted this was early HiFiMAN stuff, hopefully they upped the ante on their amps. (Haven't heard anything bad outta schiit))

 

As an alternative option.  If this is your first audio setup, here's what I'd suggest personally.

Spoiler

 

-Headphones- Sennheiser HD599- I had the 598s, and they are truly among the greatest of starter headphones.  Comfy, easy to drive, and fairly inexpensive means you can enjoy damn near anything and have room to expand in the future.

-Amp- Hypothetically you don't need one for these cans.  I'd guess a more recent mobo with onboard audio could do these justice... failing that Magni 2 will work just fine here.

-DAC- once again depends on how baller you want to be.  Might as well give that Magni a schiity companion and get a Modi 2.

 

 

tl;dr- You can't go wrong with anything Schiit makes here.  I think OP will be happy no matter what he chooses here. 

[seduce_me]

5 hours ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

1) I have heard high end amps. There is a barely audible difference.
2) I'm arguing that diminishing returns is exactly the damn reason you shouldn't spend an extra $250 on a marginal improvement.
3) Tube amps are fragile carefully calibrated glass devices that sit in busy desk areas for years. It is totally possible for something to damage it and being in a 24/7 state of carefulness is a negative.
4) I never said that the difference between mid-fi and hi-fi wasn't big, I said the schiit fulla 2 was hi-fi and at an excellent price.
5) Amps are not supposed to color the sound. There are 3 kinds of amp: Bad, Great, and slightly better. That makes them extremely easy to pick out.
6) I said if you buy FOUR OF THEM FOR THE SAME PRICE AS ONE TUBE AMP then they will last decades, naturally in that time the technology curve will show that amps will improve and probably get one new competing or revolutionary technology so if you upgrade as you go that $400 will go a lot further broken up over decades than it would blowing it all now.
7) I have tried tube amps, don't see what all the fuss is about.
8) Fine whatever. I'll keep taking apart anything you say until you admit you're wrong.

Holy shit. You can't decide what people like, what people feel is worth. You might think that tube amps are not worth the extra cost, and that's fine. You don't have to shove it around in people's faces showing how much you're "right" and how much they're "wrong". You can't be fucking serious about that can't you, spreading your opinions around like facts and calling out others you disagree with. How entitled can you get?

[Dackzy]

Awww look at what I missed. You guys gotta invite good old Dackzy into conversations or else I am going to miss them.

Also WTF is up with people and thinking that their opinion about the sweet spot is a fact. I personally think the 1400€ mark is where everything beyond that gets way too expensive for the improvement you receive, that is just a personal thing and I am willing to bet that if I earned more than I do right now,  then I wouldn't mind dropping 2.5k. Do I care if people spend 10k on their setup? Not really, as long as they think it is worth it then everything is fine.

Don't go around forcing your opinion about sweet spot on people.

[Wolf_Lbh]

16 hours ago, Masada02 said:

Side note: tube amps have a huge following for a reason, get over it.

I don't care. But I'm still not going to let someone tell me I'm wrong for suggesting an op with a $600 budget has to drop $350 on tube amps to be happy with his setup.
 

15 hours ago, Monte_Carlo said:

I'm going to go ahead and throw this option out here.  Consider going with a solid state Schiit stack.  

 

tl;dr- You can't go wrong with anything Schiit makes here.  I think OP will be happy no matter what he chooses here. 

I would strongly suggest going with the Fulla 2 over the Magni&Modi combo. I've owned both setups and the Fulla 2 sounds exactly the same for $100 cheaper.
 

11 hours ago, seduce_me said:

Holy shit. You can't decide what people like, what people feel is worth. You might think that tube amps are not worth the extra cost, and that's fine. You don't have to shove it around in people's faces showing how much you're "right" and how much they're "wrong". You can't be fucking serious about that can't you, spreading your opinions around like facts and calling out others you disagree with. How entitled can you get?

I can absolutely make a judgement about what the difference is worth when a budget is involved. As stated with a $600 budget spending ~60% of it on the amp alone for what is maybe a 3-5% difference in quality with a few annoying caveats is just dumb. If you absolutely need to go with tube amps at this budget the only choice that makes even slight sense is the Vali 2 for $170.
 

4 hours ago, Dackzy said:

Awww look at what I missed. You guys gotta invite good old Dackzy into conversations or else I am going to miss them.

Also WTF is up with people and thinking that their opinion about the sweet spot is a fact. I personally think the 1400€ mark is where everything beyond that gets way too expensive for the improvement you receive, that is just a personal thing and I am willing to bet that if I earned more than I do right now,  then I wouldn't mind dropping 2.5k. Do I care if people spend 10k on their setup? Not really, as long as they think it is worth it then everything is fine.

Don't go around forcing your opinion about sweet spot on people.

Please remember this is the sweet spot for a $600 budget. If you would still suggest going with a $350 tube amp I would love to hear what headphones you think would be ideal to get with the $250 he has remaining. Although I suppose you could still rock the HiFiMan HE4XX for that and have some amazing discounted Planar Magnetics but it sounds like you have more expensive taste than a $300 headphone discounted to $170. (Also he would still need a dac with that setup and a quality dac is going to cost $100 like the Modi 2 or... Fulla 2)

[Unhelpful]

On 8/18/2017 at 5:27 PM, Marshnt said:

Facepalm, nothing i have said is incorrect and I have only clarified my statements with facts. Don't be a troll.

One week later: most of what you said was incorrect.

[spwath]

22 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

I don't care. But I'm still not going to let someone tell me I'm wrong for suggesting an op with a $600 budget has to drop $350 on tube amps to be happy with his setup.
 

I would strongly suggest going with the Fulla 2 over the Magni&Modi combo. I've owned both setups and the Fulla 2 sounds exactly the same for $100 cheaper.
 

I can absolutely make a judgement about what the difference is worth when a budget is involved. As stated with a $600 budget spending ~60% of it on the amp alone for what is maybe a 3-5% difference in quality with a few annoying caveats is just dumb. If you absolutely need to go with tube amps at this budget the only choice that makes even slight sense is the Vali 2 for $170.
 

Please remember this is the sweet spot for a $600 budget. If you would still suggest going with a $350 tube amp I would love to hear what headphones you think would be ideal to get with the $250 he has remaining. Although I suppose you could still rock the HiFiMan HE4XX for that and have some amazing discounted Planar Magnetics but it sounds like you have more expensive taste than a $300 headphone discounted to $170. (Also he would still need a dac with that setup and a quality dac is going to cost $100 like the Modi 2 or... Fulla 2)

I did not say he had to spend $350 on a tube amp to be happy, but that was my personal recommendation.

 

I believe I suggested the HD650 with Valhalla 2, or, if that's too expensive, Vali 2.

HD650 plus Valhalla 2 is a great pairing.

HD650 plus Vali 2 is as well, but not as good.

[Wolf_Lbh]

15 minutes ago, spwath said:

I did not say he had to spend $350 on a tube amp to be happy, but that was my personal recommendation.

 

I believe I suggested the HD650 with Valhalla 2, or, if that's too expensive, Vali 2.

HD650 plus Valhalla 2 is a great pairing.

HD650 plus Vali 2 is as well, but not as good.

So $316 headphones + $350 amp + lets say a $100 dac comes to $766 out of a $600 budget. (Shame a drop for the HD6XX isn't going on now or you could shave $116 off that and be close to on budget).

I think the HiFiMan HE4XX is going to be the new sub $300 king (and a steal at $170) but I guess I can't blame you if you won't suggest something that is brand new and hasn't been tested by the public yet.

I would love to do a listening test between my $270 setup and your $766 setup (or even your setup with my headphones) to have a direct comparison. I'd bet my headphones would trump yours and your amp wouldn't sound better enough to justify $250 more (basically the cost of my entire setup lol).

Oh well, I'm willing to call this resolved unless you want to do an audophile road trip that possibly turns into a brawl lol.

[Dackzy]

12 minutes ago, Wolf_Lbh said:

Please remember this is the sweet spot for a $600 budget. If you would still suggest going with a $350 tube amp I would love to hear what headphones you think would be ideal to get with the $250 he has remaining. Although I suppose you could still rock the HiFiMan HE4XX for that and have some amazing discounted Planar Magnetics but it sounds like you have more expensive taste than a $300 headphone discounted to $170. (Also he would still need a dac with that setup and a quality dac is going to cost $100 like the Modi 2 or... Fulla 2)

3

for 600$ I would just do NFB 11.28 + HD 600, HD 650 or HD6xx, it is a pretty damn good balance between very good headphones and a very good combo for its price and then later maybe get a tube amp.

 

I don't fully agree with the DAC recommendation spwath made, I would probably just have gotten the normal modi 2 because I think the multibit versions sounds "wrong" not like any other multibit I have tried.

Other than that he is correct about the tube amp being good and that jazz.

 

OP bought HD 650's so I mean the obvious thing to get is a tube amp, since those headphones really like tube amps, plus at first the vali 2 got recommended, which is nice and a tube can last a long ass time plus a decent one for a standard socket often doesn't cost more than 15-20$. The Valhalla 2 is going to be an even better match than the vali 2

 

My current DAC has a tube in it that is 8 years old now and it has been turned on for basically 4 hours + every single day and it probably still has a couple of years left. Yes I have a tube DAC and yes there is a slight hint of tube in how it sounds.

 

Yes, I am into the more expensive stuff, but what can you really expect from me? I am really sensitive to audio, I almost finished the Philips golden ear test in a couple of days (sadly it is no longer a thing) and I have tried a lot of gear. 

[Jayvee3492]

On 8/14/2017 at 1:23 PM, xtroria said:

My recommendation is to go with HE-400i & magni modi stack. Once you go ortho you never go back

Hello. I have the HE-400i. do you think the fulla 2 is okay with it? 

[spwath]

36 minutes ago, Jayvee3492 said:

Hello. I have the HE-400i. do you think the fulla 2 is okay with it? 

 yes 

[Jayvee3492]

1 hour ago, spwath said:

 yes 

How much is the difference between fulla 2 and magni modi stack? or fulla 2 is really that okay with it?

[Dackzy]

7 hours ago, Jayvee3492 said:

How much is the difference between fulla 2 and magni modi stack? or fulla 2 is really that okay with it?

That is different from person to person. Would you be able to tell a difference probably, but the significance of the improvement will be different from person to person. 

Some of the differences you might hear is cleaner tonality (not sure if this is the 100% correct word to use here), bit more detail, maybe also a bigger soundstage and slightly better positional audio. These things are often fairly subtle and overlooked by a lot of people.

A fulla 2 is perfectly fine for he400i's.