3 Phase and Single-Phase

[knightslugger]

3 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

He might think because it has three prongs, it's three phase?

lol, cuz, numbers! three prongs? THREE PHASE!

 

nevermind electrical enginerding. HOLD MY BEER< I GOT THIS!

[Phate.exe]

To OP, 3-Phase power would use a different receptacle than regular single-phase power, no matter where you live.

 

If it's an outlet that you can plug normal appliances into, it's single phase and you'll be fine plugging your computer in.

 

The only thing to check first would be if your power supply has a voltage switch on it somewhere, and to make sure it's set appropriately for where you live.

[Versti]

48 minutes ago, Phate.exe said:

To OP, 3-Phase power would use a different receptacle than regular single-phase power, no matter where you live.

 

If it's an outlet that you can plug normal appliances into, it's single phase and you'll be fine plugging your computer in.

 

The only thing to check first would be if your power supply has a voltage switch on it somewhere, and to make sure it's set appropriately for where you live.

i dont think there's a voltage switch on the rm650x

[knightslugger]

59 minutes ago, Versti said:

i dont think there's a voltage switch on the rm650x

it's automatic.

[Phate.exe]

1 hour ago, Versti said:

i dont think there's a voltage switch on the rm650x

 

12 minutes ago, knightslugger said:

it's automatic.

Yeah, that's more me being used to older not-amazing hardware.  Most power supplies do it automatically nowadays, but it's always good to check.

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, Versti said:

but i watched a video talking about the 3 phase electricity and the single-phase electricity and its affect on PSUs, and some people got their pc fried because of it, 

and i wanna know, is it true that a certain one could actually fry my pc? 

Yes it is true.

You have to use all components connected to the PC on the same phase!

That's normally the case, but don't quote me on that. Some Electricians did put 2 phases on two outlets in the same room - wich can destroy every hardware.

Ethernet is fine though. But that's the only thing...

 

The reason for that is that with everything you have a potential between two devices where none should be...

That's why that kills hardware...

 

Under normal circumstances you just don't do that anyway...

[scottyseng]

18 hours ago, Versti said:

so i'm gonna build my first custom build pc very soon,

 

but i watched a video talking about the 3 phase electricity and the single-phase electricity and its affect on PSUs, and some people got their pc fried because of it, 

and i wanna know, is it true that a certain one could actually fry my pc? my psu is rm650x btw, and what can i do to stop it, because obviously i wont change the whole wires in my house.. lol..

Electrician here...3 phase electricity itself will not be able to damage your PC because you more than likely have a plug that's running off of a single phase of the three phase system that's completely equal to a normal single phase system. In fact, I wish every building and home used three phase power. It's such a superior system of balancing electricity and you have access to far more efficient motors and AC units with three phase.

 

As stated above, three phase is just three lines of single phase in 120 degree operation. However, there are two types of three phase. The modern balanced configured known as "wye" which has line 1, 2, and 3 at 120V each (or 240 or 277 for high voltage). The combined voltage between any two lines is 208V. I have seen a few lucky homes with three phase power.

 

The other configuration is where you can potentially kill PSUs if they use the wrong phase. The second configuration is known as "delta", or "hot leg". It is called this because one phase (usually the center line / line 2) is at a higher voltage than the other two phases. So in the US, lines 1 and 3 would be 120v while line 2 is 208V...this high voltage leg is known as the "hot leg" because it's higher than the other two (There's also high voltage versions). The combined voltage between line 1 and 2 or 3 and 2 would be 240V. Meanwhile, the voltage between 1 and 3 would be 208V as these lines are lower voltage. This configuration is not popular because while the equipment gets more power on line 2, it also results in a lot of wasted breaker panel space if you need a lot of standard 120V single phase circuits because you cannot use line 2 at all (since it's a higher voltage at 208V). You also can only use 1 and 3 for 208V (double pole) devices since you can't use line 2 at all either.

 

The only way I can see three phase killing a single phase appliance is if you have this configuration and your electrician just added a single phase circuit to line 2 without realizing it was a delta configuration. This would send 208V into any 120V device plugged into and kill it (Depends on the PSU if has auto detect or not...if it doesn't and the switch is set to 120V, it will die). We have also seen some "DIY" centric store owners kill several PCs because they ran a single phase circuit to the 208V line without realizing it...

 

But yeah, as stated above, three phase has a four prong plug. You can't really damage single phase devices on three phase power as long as they run on a single phase that is 120V as expected. You can also have multiple phases within a room as long as they are the same as just having three single phase circuits. You can't really cross phases on single phase circuits for plugs...you would have to try to ghetto rig something to cross two lines and by then I'd question why you thought trying to get power from two separate single phase plugs at the same time was a good idea. Your PSU will be happy and safe on a single line within a balanced three phase system. Your dad is correct that your home is three phase (You can also tell if you have four wires coming out of your main service entrance or see three wires, black, red, and blue marked (electrical coloring may be different there though). You are simply using a single phase of the three phase system and it's 100% safe as long as it's the correct voltage (not line 2 in the delta configuration mentioned earlier).

 

Also, @Stefan Payne you do not have to use PC components on the same phase. If you have a monitor connected to line 1 and the PC connected to line 2 (assuming "wye" three phase at 120V each line), it is 100% safe. I have no idea who misinformed you that having two different phases for different outlets in the same room was bad. It's the same as having two separate single phase circuits.

[cluelessgenius]

feel free to correct me guys but i would almost say no privat home has 3 phases. right now i work for a company with huge warehouse rail transport systems (were talking megawatts here) and they use 3 phase but i doubt anybody has that at home powering their freaking fridge

[scottyseng]

7 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

feel free to correct me guys but i would almost say no privat home has 3 phases. right now i work for a company with huge warehouse rail transport systems (were talking megawatts here) and they use 3 phase but i doubt anybody has that at home powering their freaking fridge

I'm not sure about Germany, but I have seen a few neighborhoods here in Texas (Some in Houston and Dallas) with three phase. It depends on what the utility company has available on the pole. I still wish homes had three phase, it's so much better to be honest. But it is really rare.

[cluelessgenius]

11 minutes ago, scottyseng said:

I'm not sure about Germany, but I have seen a few neighborhoods here in Texas (Some in Houston and Dallas) with three phase. It depends on what the utility company has available on the pole. I still wish homes had three phase, it's so much better to be honest. But it is really rare.

now im curious ...how is it better?

[scottyseng]

Just now, cluelessgenius said:

now im curious ...how is it better?

You have access to three phase motors / equipment. You will see a pretty notable amp reduction with a AC unit of the same tonnage (cooling capacity) that runs on 208V (double pole 120V) vs three phase (120V in three lines). The added cost of three phase pays itself off pretty quickly with how much reduction you see on the power bill.

 

Also, in the US we have two lines of 120V for single phase usually. With three phase, we have three lines of 120V. This allows us to have another line to add more circuits to balance single phase power needs. In a ideal world, you want each electrical line to equal or close to equal to the others as possible (So you don't overload one line).

[razaldo]

17 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

He might think because it has three prongs, it's three phase?

Or maybe he just gave a dad response 

 

Thats what I have been doing recently

[Versti]

i wanna thank everyone that helped me with this thing, and a special thanks for scotty for writing that LONG LONG LONG LONG!! thing about 3 phase and single-phase , cuz i bet that took a long time to write, just as it took me to read and understand it( i legit read it 3 times so i can understand it), thank you guys!

[Snipeon]

Honestly... YOU CAN"T MISTAKE A 3 PHASE OUTLET FOR A SINGLE PHASE ONE!!!

This is your standard wall outlets, depending on which country you are in...

Spoiler

 

AND THIS... IS THE 3 PHASE OUTLET/SOCKET YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT!!!

Spoiler

 

Does that look like a socket you can plug your PC into? Unless you have somehow gotten a nutcase as the electrician who wired up your house who went and messed up the wiring of your house real bad...

[Versti]

Just now, Snipeon said:

Honestly... YOU CAN"T MISTAKE A 3 PHASE OUTLET FOR A SINGLE PHASE ONE!!!

This is your standard wall outlets, depending on which country you are in...

  Hide contents

 

AND THIS... IS THE 3 PHASE OUTLET/SOCKET YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT!!!

  Hide contents

 

Does that look like a socket you can plug your PC into? Unless you have somehow gotten a nutcase as the electrician who wired up your house who went and messed up the wiring of your house real bad...

why r u mad? lol

[Snipeon]

Cuz of the sheer amount of electrical idiots I have met in real life... Sorry, it just triggered me a bit. Something like how the massive amount of tech idiots can drive a techie up the wall in no time.

 

Edit: Bottom line is, you do not have to worry about 3 phase power in your ordinary wall sockets. It's all single phase. 

[Snipeon]

21 hours ago, Versti said:

so like, will a single-phase fry it, or will a 3 phase fry it?

Anyway, what you should be concerned about isn't how many phases your electricity has, or what voltage your socket is on. What you should be concerned about is surge current. That's what fries your electrical/electronic appliances. 

 

Surge current is something which occurs when there is a sudden influx of electrical energy(eg. lightning strikes, starting a generator). There is no way to stop it. As such, you should look into stuff such as:

1. The electrical quality of your country/city(does your electricity cut out often? Is it just you or everyone else? If it's just you look at point 3.)

2. How your local lightning rods are grounded(does your house electrical breakers trip every time there is a thunderstorm?)

3. The age/quality of your home breakers(do they trip often for no particular reason?)

 

If the electrical quality of your city is horrible or the lightning rods are grounded wrongly, nothing much you can do expect to look into investing in a surge protector or UPS with your PC. If your breakers are really old or have some questionable origin, get someone who knows about electrical stuff to change them.

 

Whelp, that's all the advice I can give you, lol.

[Stefan Payne]

4 hours ago, scottyseng said:

Also, @Stefan Payne you do not have to use PC components on the same phase. If you have a monitor connected to line 1 and the PC connected to line 2 (assuming "wye" three phase at 120V each line), it is 100% safe. I have no idea who misinformed you that having two different phases for different outlets in the same room was bad. It's the same as having two separate single phase circuits.

I've seen that happen.

With a Printer and a Computer, not Monitor though.

Both were used on different phases (whoever thought it was a good idea to put two different phases in one room to two outlets that's not even 5m apart...).

Both died.

[Versti]

32 minutes ago, Snipeon said:

Anyway, what you should be concerned about isn't how many phases your electricity has, or what voltage your socket is on. What you should be concerned about is surge current. That's what fries your electrical/electronic appliances. 

 

Surge current is something which occurs when there is a sudden influx of electrical energy(eg. lightning strikes, starting a generator). There is no way to stop it. As such, you should look into stuff such as:

1. The electrical quality of your country/city(does your electricity cut out often? Is it just you or everyone else? If it's just you look at point 3.)

2. How your local lightning rods are grounded(does your house electrical breakers trip every time there is a thunderstorm?)

3. The age/quality of your home breakers(do they trip often for no particular reason?)

 

If the electrical quality of your city is horrible or the lightning rods are grounded wrongly, nothing much you can do expect to look into investing in a surge protector or UPS with your PC. If your breakers are really old or have some questionable origin, get someone who knows about electrical stuff to change them.

 

Whelp, that's all the advice I can give you, lol.

ya about surges.. thats the only thing that i know about electricity, sadly.., already thought about getting a surge protector, cuz electricity cuts off like 2 times a year on average

[Stefan Payne]

4 hours ago, cluelessgenius said:

feel free to correct me guys but i would almost say no privat home has 3 phases. right now i work for a company with huge warehouse rail transport systems (were talking megawatts here) and they use 3 phase but i doubt anybody has that at home powering their freaking fridge

That's new.

At my Time as an Electrician all homes had 3 Phases incoming...

Don't know why that should change.

 

It was for houses of course, for a flat in a bigger house it might be different though. There you might have indeed just one phase in the flat. But we don't have that here where I live.

 

And of course the house I live in right now has 3 phases incoming as well (and we need it for the 35kW flow heater)...

[Versti]

i actually just investigated, in our house we actually have 3 phase and 1 phase, the lower part of out house (which is being used as storage etc..) has 3 phase for some reason

[Stefan Payne]

4 hours ago, scottyseng said:

The other configuration is where you can potentially kill PSUs if they use the wrong phase. The second configuration is known as "delta", or "hot leg". It is called this because one phase (usually the center line / line 2) is at a higher voltage than the other two phases. So in the US, lines 1 and 3 would be 120v while line 2 is 208V...this high voltage leg is known as the "hot leg" because it's higher than the other two (There's also high voltage versions).

Shoudn't  be an issue with modern components with wide range aPFC Power Supplys.

They usually take anything between 100 and 264V run it through a boost circuit (the active PFC section) anyway...

Internally they run with something around 350-425V

 

4 hours ago, scottyseng said:

The combined voltage between line 1 and 2 or 3 and 2 would be 240V.

That's so low...

Compared to where I live where we have that (almost) single Phase.

3Phase is officially 400V AC. (old: 380VAC)

 

Officially here a single phase is (while just 50Hz) 230VAC officially (in reality it's still 220V AC like the old days)....

[Snipeon]

8 minutes ago, Versti said:

i actually just investigated, in our house we actually have 3 phase and 1 phase, the lower part of out house (which is being used as storage etc..) has 3 phase for some reason

Homes do have 3 phase power incoming, for stuff such as private generators. The only difference between home and commercial power is that usually in homes the 3 phase is rarely used as it is. Both commercial and homes have their 3 phase power split out into 3 different single phase lines to power stuff which do not need a 3 phase line. This balances the load on any of the 3 lines and ensures you do not have a electrical fire on your hands due to too much current flowing through any one of the lines.

[scottyseng]

9 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Shoudn't  be an issue with modern components with wide range aPFC Power Supplys.

They usually take anything between 100 and 264V run it through a boost circuit (the active PFC section) anyway...

Internally they run with something around 350-425V

 

That's so low...

Compared to where I live where we have that (almost) single Phase.

3Phase is officially 400V AC. (old: 380VAC)

 

Officially here a single phase is (while just 50Hz) 230VAC officially (in reality it's still 220V AC like the old days)....

Yeah, I know in Europe in general you guys have single phase as 230V (We're too scared for that here so we use 120V. lol). I kind of wish everyone had high voltage here and used transformers, but that's not legally allowed in homes...

 

Hmm, yeah, for us, 400V+ would be considered ultra high voltage. That kind of stuff you can't easily get in the US without really good planning. The usual high voltage for us is 277V / 480V or 240V / 460V.

[JokerProduction]

So much misinformation here.  Everything is supplied from 3phase power if you go back far enough as any power plant generators are going to be 3phase and power is ALWAYS transmitted with 3ph.(I'm talking the 400,000-700,000v 75m towers)  A 3ph supply(as long as its 4wire) can be used to feed single phase without issue as it just 3 single phases.

 

I think a lot of people are mistaking an Edison 3wire circuit for a 3phase circuit and i cant count how many times I've had this happen. Common  Edison 3wire circuits are going to be 120/240V here in north america or 230/460 in EU.  Now its very important to note that these are still single phase voltages and cannot be used to power something that truly is 3ph.  Some people even mistake this as 2ph as it 2 seperate wave forms but it is still single phase because they are in phase with each other.(ie both cross 0 at the same time)

 

3ph common voltages are 120/208, 277/480, 347/600, 240/415.  3ph voltages will always have the higher voltage 1.73x larger than the lower voltage. If its double its single phase on a Edison 3wire circuit.

 

Generally 3ph is not used for residences unless its a big apartment building, condo complex, or massive mansion as a 3ph transformer is more expensive than a equivalent sized(which is measured in KVA) single phase transformer and 98% of the people will never use a 3ph load.

 

2ph is also a thing but its very uncommon and has been phased out and  equipment for it is no longer available.  It was really only ever used back in the 1930s.  (2phase is actually 4hots 90° apart)  Its so rare that it isn't even taught in electrical programs anymore.

 

Every different voltage and amperage has a plug and receptacle that is specific to it and wont plug in as they are keyed.  the only exception being the "t-slot" receptacle that is rarely used in NA.  It will accept 120v15A and 120v20A  There is also a straight blade  and a locking "twist-lok" receptacle for each voltage.  As well and the IEC pin and sleeve type connectors posted above.(which are not always 3ph as Snipeon  suggested above)

 

If you do happen to have a 3phase service to your house that is nothing but a good thing with no negatives as it will you more voltage options when ordering equipment as you can run either voltage in 1ph or the higher voltage as 3ph.  Its common(in NA to have a split receptacle with 2 different phases(actually by canadian code they have to be on separate phases) so having 2plugs in the same room on separate phases is not going to cause issues unless its sharing a neutral and that nuetral happens to break which is extremely rare.

 

Short of it is, you as a homeowner the only thing you can really do is invest in a surge protection device which could be anything from a 20$ power strip to a 20k$ panel mounted TVSS  or better yet a UPS.

 

2 hours ago, scottyseng said:

On the bright side, your electricity bills are probably considerably lower than 120V here in the US.

 

 

This is also incorrect you are not charged by how many amps are drawn but by how much power. A 100w light bulb still draws 100w if its powered by 120v or 600v and will still use 100w/h every hour its on.  The advantage to higher voltages is that there is less amps drawn and therefor require a smaller wire(but thicker insulation) and copper is much more expensive than the plastic or silicon insulation.  Most electrical stuff is done with economics in mind.