Apple hatred, Why is it, Honestly?

[mr moose]

I'm autistic (literally, I have Aspergers) so I tend to think people might be referring to me when they aren't. Just one of the quirks. Also the need to explain myself to anything I might find relevant or somehow related to my position....

Me too,  I hate ambiguous unqualified statements, And I can't always pick a persons intention.

[Advent]

Me too,  I hate ambiguous unqualified statements, And I can't always pick a persons intention.

Intentions are easy for me grasp if I hear something. To do so with text, not so much.

[MrSuperb]

1) Well for one, gaming. You can't do nearly as much gaming on Apple as you can on Windows as an end user (not counting power users or people who dual boot with 1 OS X partition and 1 Windows partition). Even Linux is starting to become more gamer friendly than OS X. Also it is much easier for an end user to make Windows look like whatever they want it to vs using OS X. They may have changed this in their latest version but previous versions were not as easily customizable.  Windows also supports way more software and hardware vendors. The same goes for Linux. Although as far as software is concerned Linux is closer to Apple.

 

2) I said almost. I didn't say "does" cost double. There is a clear discrepancy in price vs non-Apple products vs their comparable counterparts. The MSI laptop I linked is $900 less than the 15-inch Macbook Pro w/ retina display with pretty much the exact same specs.

 

1) That has nothing to do with being 'looked down'. And you don't really have to be a 'power user' to have a windows install on a mac. Heck it is probably even easier to install windows on a Mac, than on a self built pc. You can heavly customize the look of OS X, and that's what I did with 10.4  but no one really cares to change anything right now.

e.g.

 

2) 'exact same specs'

[MrSuperb]

I won't argue for Windows, but Linux is indeed open-source... not sure how you can be more open than that. 

 

guess what XNU, the os x kernel is ... a hint ... http://www.opensource.apple.com/

[MrSuperb]

Yeah, you are not the kind of guy I meant by fanboy. I mean the people who say "this is better than that other brand and superior in every way shape and form. All other products suck"

 

You know, in this thread it never really was about Apple being better at anything, but rather some wrong arguments and useless comparisons.

[mr moose]

You know, in this thread it never really was about Apple being better at anything, but rather some wrong arguments and useless comparisons.

No, it was about why people hate apple,  and the reasons are usually user specific and subjective.  which can't exactly be wrong. 

 

Like me personally, I don't like apple because where I live I can get an acer or hp laptop that does the job I need it to significantly cheaper than any mac.  Add to that I have trouble with osx and don't want to spend time learning a second os when I already know how to use win.  

[Advent]

1) That has nothing to do with being 'looked down'. And you don't really have to be a 'power user' to have a windows install on a mac. Heck it is probably even easier to install windows on a Mac, than on a self built pc. You can heavly customize the look of OS X, and that's what I did with 10.4  but no one really cares to change anything right now.

e.g.

 

2) 'exact same specs'

1.) A platforms supported software does indeed have to do with being locked down or not, as well as its limitations.  Regarding the installation of Windows or customizing OS X, are you speaking from experience? Because that is subjective. What you as a user can do and what others can do are not the same. The very fact that you post on an IT oriented forum is proof of that you aren't a standard end user. I work customer support for a living on all 3 platforms. Most of my customers could not install Windows on an Apple. Hell, they can't even install Windows on a PC. Most have a hard time changing screen resolutions too let alone fonts, GUI styles etc.

So in my experience I think it is safe to say unless someone is a power user or has more than average knowledge then they are not able to do what I was talking about.

Also how could it possibly be easier to install Windows from a CD on a Mac compared to a PC. The installation process is exactly the same. The difference comes when you have to hunt around for drives that will work with windows and the proprietary mac hardware. With Windows 7/8 most of the drivers are detected automatically depending on the brand of machine you are using. GPU/LAN/WAN and Card readers are usually the ones that don't autodetect sometimes.

 

2.) Nearly the same specs. So close that the difference is price isn't warranted.

[MrSuperb]

MacBook Pro

13-inch with Retina display      

Specifications:

2.6GHZ dual-core Intel Core i5 (turbo boost up to 3.1GHz)

8 GB 1600MHz memory

512GB PCIe-based flash storage

Intel Iris Graphics

OS X

Built-in battery (9 hours)

Dimensions: 12.3" x 8.6" x 0.7"

Weight: 3.46 lbs

 

$1,799

 

VS

MSI GS70 2OD-002US

17.3" Display Full HD

Specifications:

2.40GHz Intel Core i7 4700HQ Quad-Core (Each core offers a base speed of 2.4 GHz but can dynamically increase clock rates with Turbo Boost up to 3.2 GHz (for 4 active cores), 3.3 GHz (for 2 active cores) and 3.4 GHz (for 1 active core).

16GB Memory

1TB HDD

128GB x 2 SSD

GTX 765M 2GB

Windows 8

Dimensions: 16.47" x 11.29" x 0.85"

Weight: 5.73 lbs.

 

$1,749

 

I hate that comparison, because it really is apples to oranges ...

 

The MSI is 2.13 TIMES the size of the Macbook in Volume.

The MSI is 1.66 TIMES the weight of the Macbook.

The Macbook has more than 2.0 - 2.5 TIMES the battery life of the MSI (of course this is NOT important AT ALL in a notebook)

The Macbook has a much higher resolution screen (in terms of DPI anyway), but not only that it is also generally much better in terms of color reproduction

The MSI gets freaking hot (130ºF !) under load, while the Macbook stays relatively cool.

 

Ultimately the MSI is more powerful, but at what price?!

It is a gaming laptop, where pure performance counts more, than other typical notebook values/specs.

Apple doesn't offer anything like this, and if you are looking for something like this, than don't buy an Apple laptop. It is as simple as that.

[MrSuperb]

 

Like me personally, I don't like apple because where I live I can get an acer or hp laptop that does the job I need it to significantly cheaper than any mac.  Add to that I have trouble with osx and don't want to spend time learning a second os when I already know how to use win.  

 

So you don't like Apple, because they don't offer any 'budget laptops' with a lot of performance for little money.

But then again you should hate the 'better' products from Dell, HP, Lenovo, Samsung, MSI, Asus, Acer etc. as well. 

[mr moose]

Apple doesn't offer anything like this, and if you are looking for something like this, than don't buy an Apple laptop. It is as simple as that.

That is what he has been saying all along. 

 

So you don't like Apple, because they don't offer any 'budget laptops' with a lot of performance for little money.

But then again you should hate the 'better' products from Dell, HP, Lenovo, Samsung, MSI, Asus, Acer etc. as well. 

Correct,  they don't meet my needs so I don't like them.  Why would I like something that I can't use/afford?

[Advent]

I hate that comparison, because it really is apples to oranges ...

 

The MSI is 2.13 TIMES the size of the Macbook in Volume.

The MSI is 1.66 TIMES the weight of the Macbook.

The Macbook has more than 2.0 - 2.5 TIMES the battery life of the MSI (of course this is NOT important AT ALL in a notebook)

The Macbook has a much higher resolution screen (in terms of DPI anyway), but not only that it is also generally much better in terms of color reproduction

The MSI gets freaking hot (130ºF !) under load, while the Macbook stays relatively cool.

 

Ultimately the MSI is more powerful, but at what price?!

It is a gaming laptop, where pure performance counts more, than other typical notebook values/specs.

Apple doesn't offer anything like this, and if you are looking for something like this, than don't buy an Apple laptop. It is as simple as that.

I can find you a similar laptop that has a smaller display and weights a little bit less with more battery life if that would help you. The only thing it wouldn't have would be the retina display,PCI SSD.

My argument is that you can find more powerful machines for less cost than an Apple. Which is true. You have just admitted to that. The argument never stipulated I could not choose a gaming laptop as an opponent for a MBP. So now because my point has been proven you are going to limit what I can use to prove said argument and basically handicap me in favor of Apple? How absurd.

Of course it gets hotter. It has a quad core CPU with 3 storage devices and 2GB GPU. It has higher specs minus the PCI SSD, screen, and battery life.

 

[MrSuperb]

1.) A platforms supported software does indeed have to do with being locked down or not as well as its limitations.  Regarding the installation of Windows or customizing OS X, are you speaking from experience? Because that is subjective. I work customer support for a living on all 3 platforms. Most of my customers could not install Windows on an Apple. Hell, they can't even install Windows on a PC. Most have a hard time changing screen resolutions too let alone fonts, GUI styles etc.

So in my experience I think it is safe to say unless someone is a power user or has more than average knowledge then they are not able to do what I was talking about.

Also how could it possibly be easier to install Windows from a CD on a Mac compared to a PC. The installation process is exactly the same. The difference comes when you have to hunt around for drives that will work with windows and the proprietary mac hardware. With Windows 7/8 most of the drivers are detected automatically depending on the brand of machine you are using. GPU/LAN/WAN and Card readers are usually the ones that don't autodetect sometimes.

 

2.) Nearly the same specs. So close that the difference is price isn't warranted.

 

1) How does the lack of some software related to the OS being locked down? (which definitely isn't the case at all)

If they can't install Windows on a Mac, they most certainly can't install Windows on any PC.

You only have to start Bootcamp and the software guides you pretty much through the whole installation, even including the ability to make a bootable usb stick to install windows from. You get all the drivers you need for your mac in one single installation file, which you are told about in the Bootcamp program ...

[MrSuperb]

1) I can find you a similar laptop that has a smaller display and weights a little bit less with more battery life if that would help you. The only thing it wouldn't have would be the retina display.

2) My argument is that you can find more powerful machines for less cost than an Apple. Which is true. You have just admitted to that. The argument never stipulated I could not choose a gaming laptop as an opponent for a MBP. So now because my point has been proven you are going to limit what I can use to prove said argument and basically handicap me in favor of Apple? How absurd.

 

1) Find me a similar laptop with a good screen, that is significantly cheaper.

 

2) SURPRISE SURPRISE .... by that argument any ultrabook is just plain shit. heck even any laptop is pure shit, because you could build a dekstop for much less.

[Advent]

1) Find me a similar laptop with a good screen, that is significantly cheaper.

 

2) SURPRISE SURPRISE .... by that argument any ultrabook is just plain shit. heck even any laptop is pure shit, because you could build a dekstop for much less.

1) 1080p is a good screen.

 

2.) We are comparing laptops to laptops. Not laptops to desktops. You are reaching now. If you want to get into desktops then I could really blow away Apple products by building a machine myself.

Also I typed a bit more than your quote has inside it. You might want to go read what I wrote again.

[MrSuperb]

That is what he has been saying all along. 

 

Correct,  they don't meet my needs so I don't like them.  Why would I like something that I can't use/afford?

 

No he hasn't. He has been comparing two completely different things.

 

 

There is a fine difference between not liking something and hating something.

[MrSuperb]

1) 1080p is a good screen.

 

2.) We are comparing laptops to laptops. Not laptops to desktops. You are reaching now.

 

1) resolution alone doesn't make a good screen yet. Also the MSI is 17", the Macbook 13" (therefor the macbook resolution in terms of dpi is much higher)

 

2) no we aren't really. If by laptop you mean a portable computer which can be use to work a business day, than the MSI clearly disqualifies itself.

[Advent]

1) How does the lack of some software related to the OS being locked down? (which definitely isn't the case at all)

If they can't install Windows on a Mac, they most certainly can't install Windows on any PC.

You only have to start Bootcamp and the software guides you pretty much through the whole installation, even including the ability to make a bootable usb stick to install windows from. You get all the drivers you need for your mac in one single installation file, which you are told about in the Bootcamp program ...

If an OS cannot support a certain program because it lacks features to do so due to the company not making it compatible then it is segregated, locked down.

Your average user doesn't even know what Bootcamp is.

[Advent]

1) resolution alone doesn't make a good screen yet. Also the MSI is 17", the Macbook 13" (therefor the macbook resolution in terms of dpi is much higher)

 

2) no we aren't really. If by laptop you mean a portable computer which can be use to work a business day, than the MSI clearly disqualifies itself.

1.) Again, I can find you a 1080p HD laptop in 13-15 inch size. A 1080p HD screen is perfectly fine. Also I never said I would find a non-Apple laptop with a Retina display for under $1500. You act as if because something isn't a Retina display that it is automatically horrible. Also it goes without saying that the Macbook has a higher resolution. When did I say that it didn't?

 

2.) A 17 inch laptop is just as portable as a 13 inch. Just in a slightly larger form factor. You turn it off. Unplug the AC Adapter, put it in your backpack or your shoulder bag and go where you want. I take my 17.5 HP around with me everywhere I go. I have no issues with size or weight. It fits in a bag that I put over my shoulder and away I go. I use this laptop for work as well as play. Using the low power GPU I get ~6.5 hours of battery life. On the gaming GPU I get about 3.5-4 hours on average. Not to mention the fact that everywhere I take it has a desk and a power outlet so that is a non-issue. So your argument is invalid.

[mr moose]

No he hasn't. He has been comparing two completely different things.

 

 

There is a fine difference between not liking something and hating something.

yep, and those differences are subjective and fair if the reason is important to said person.  Most people hate apple because of their business practice. however the rest of us merely don't like apple due to product in compatibility.   All of advents post read to me like the he was comparing two products to a specific need/price, not to each other. I'll stand corrected if this is wrong.

[MrSuperb]

If an OS cannot support a certain program because it lacks features to do so due to the company not making it compatible then it is segregated, locked down.

Your average user doesn't even know what Bootcamp is.

 

Other than some commercial software and some games, there isn't really a lack at all. And this software doesn't exist, because the demand simply is not there, not because OS X is to restrictive. Of course there is no directx, it being proprietary windows software (talking about OSes being locked down!)

 

I am pretty sure the average use does know that, and if not it is enough to enter 'mac windows' in a google search and you are getting directly to an official Apple homepage describing all the possibilites to run windows on your mac.

[Advent]

Other than some commercial software and some games, there isn't really a lack at all. And this software doesn't exist, because the demand simply is not there, not because OS X is to restrictive. Of course there is now directx, it being proprietary windows software (talking about OSes being locked down!)

 

I am pretty sure the average use does know that, and if not it is enough to enter 'mac windows' in a google search and you are getting directly to an official Apple homepage describing all the possibilites to run windows on your mac.

1.) But there is a lack now isn't there? In regards to DirectX, I never said Microsoft didn't have aspects of it that were not available on other platforms. The same is true of all platforms (Apple, Microsoft and Linux). If DirectX is your only complaint then so be it. I'll concede you that point.

 

2.) I'm pretty sure you don't know what an average user knows or doesn't know unless you work in IT. I've worked customer support for a decade. 90% of the user base I deal with falls under the term luser (lame end user). They don't know their left from their right and anything outside the scope of word processing, playing games and searching Youtube/checking emails is outside the scope of their capabilities. Most of them screw up a simple install of a program and can't seem to install it without installing the bundled adware. They are too stupid to read the directions on the screen and uncheck that little box that says "install x crapware here".

[MrSuperb]

1.) Again, I can find you a 1080p HD laptop in 13-15 inch size. A 1080p HD screen is perfectly fine. Also I never said I would find a non-Apple laptop with a Retina display for under $1500. You act as if because something isn't a Retina display that it is automatically horrible. Also it goes without saying that the Macbook has a higher resolution. When did I say that it didn't?

 

2.) A 17 inch laptop is just as portable as a 13 inch. Just in a slightly larger form factor. You turn it off. Unplug the AC Adapter, put it in your backpack or your shoulder bag and go where you want. I take my 17.5 HP around with me everywhere I go. I have no issues with size or weight. It fits in a bag that I put over my shoulder and away I go. I use this laptop for work as well as play. Using the low power GPU I get ~6.5 hours of battery life. On the gaming GPU I get about 3.5-4 hours on average. Not to mention the fact that everywhere I take it has a desk and a power outlet so that is a non-issue. So your argument is invalid.

 

1) Don't put words in my mouth, that I haven't said. I said you should fine me a laptop comparable to the Macbook for a significant lower price.

 

2) no it isn't and if you can't see the difference this discussion is useless.

(again ... almost twice the weight, twice the size, half the battery life, etc.)

[MrSuperb]

1.) But there is a lack now isn't there? In regards to DirectX, I never said Microsoft didn't have aspects of it that were not available on other platforms. The same is true of all platforms (Apple, Microsoft and Linux). If DirectX is your only complaint then so be it. I'll concede you that point.

 

Not really. I never really missed a single windows application under os x, because there are (almost) always better solution under OS X.

[Advent]

1) Don't put words in my mouth, that I haven't said. I said you should fine me a laptop comparable to the Macbook for a significant lower price.

 

2) no it isn't and if you can't see the difference this discussion is useless.

(again ... almost twice the weight, twice the size, half the battery life, etc.)

1.) You act as if 1080p doesn't mean a screen is good. Last I checked 1080p was a step up from its predecessors. Also any laptop with an HD screen can't be that bad. Unless HD doesn't mean what HD should mean.

 

2.) How are you defining portability then? Because in my world a device is portable if I can move it easily from one location to another and not have to setup a whole bunch of cabling or other things in order to get it working. By these criteria a laptop, a portable computing device, regardless of size, is portable by its very design. It is a self contained computing device which has an internal power source which allows it to function untethered by an outside power source for x amount of time. We can quibble about the finer points of who prefers what size of laptop, its weight and how much it affects them, battery life, outdoor screen glare etc. That still doesn't change the fact that a 17 inch is as portable as a 13 inch. Portable is portable. Arguing semantics of aesthetics and preferences doesn't change that.

Now had I compared the 13 inch to a laptop that was say...... 25-30+ inches, then yes. That would not be very portable as far as practicality goes. But if it was a laptop, by design it would still be considered a portable device. Most of my cowokers have laptops with displays that are between 15-17 inches. A larger screen makes it easier to do more things at once. It is also easier on the eyes.

Anyhow its 3:24 AM. I need to sleep. Good night. I appreciate the healthy debate.

[Advent]

Not really. I never really missed a single windows application under os x, because there are (almost) always better solution under OS X.

"Better" is subjective.