Windows 10 Data Collection

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

-snip-

In regards to Windows 7 and your points about freedom of choice that is correct. However no one has any right to complain about a single thing if the product is no longer supported, that is the point of not being supported right... Freedom of speech is a great thing, doesn't mean what people are saying has any merit.

 

You can use Windows 7 as much as you like if you can get it to work and are not violating Microsoft's (or anyone else's) terms, but this is use at your own risk. You won't get security updates, you won't get long term driver support from 3rd parties and you'll get zero sympathy from anyone that cares about good IT practices.

 

Below not aimed at you anymore just general statement.

 

 

In the case of a business when you put any hardware or software in you need to have an upgrade plan in place at that point not later or 'when I get to it', with an assigned budget. You need to plan for upgrading that hardware/software, you also need to plan for significant migrations of it too, be it to completely different software/hardware. This is why small businesses get stuck where they do as they never do this planning. Running something in to the ground because it works is terrible practice, why fix what isn't broken? Because it WILL break.

 

Most software that doesn't work with newer versions of Windows is because the latest version of that software isn't being used. I have managed an extremely large amount of different software, being in the business of doing IT support and have done so for some rather large universities which teach all areas imaginable and require thousands of different software and hardware: Medical, Engineering, Electronics, Finance/Accounting, Science, Biology, Physics, Agriculture, Mathematics, IT etc.

 

Software that doesn't have a version that supports the latest OS is the minority, so application compatibility is a very poor excuse. That is one's own fault for not upgrading. Have I had to deal with software that has no upgrade path or the company no longer exists, yes many times in fact.

 

Windows 7 is past standard support, extended support has a very specific purpose. No new system should ever be deployed if something is on extended support.

 

Windows 10 is fantastic. The only valid complaint I agree with is if people don't like the new UI. Stability, features or what ever else is utterly false and has been for a while.

 

Do I still prefer Windows 7, yes. Would I have liked official Windows 7 Ryzen support, yes. Do I use Windows 7, no. Would I ever use Windows 7 again, no.

[jagdtigger]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Windows 10 is fantastic. The only valid complaint I agree with is if people don't like the new UI. Stability, features or what ever else is utterly false and has been for a while.

You forgot about the gaping hole in data security... And before someone comes with the crappy "tinfoil hat" argument again its pretty severe that an OS that has access to practically all of your private life sends undisclosed amount and undisclosed type of data behind your back! Even MS is admitted that data gathering and sending cannot be disabled after they got caught with their pants down so at this point its a fact rather than a  "conspiracy theory" or paranoia.

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

You forgot about the gaping hole in data security... And before someone comes with the crappy "tinfoil hat" argument again its pretty severe that an OS that has access to practically all of your private life sends undisclosed amount and undisclosed type of data behind your back! Even MS is admitted that data gathering and sending cannot be disabled after they got caught with their pants down so at this point its a fact rather than a  "conspiracy theory" or paranoia.

No it doesn't, private information and application/OS telemetry are very different things. Also you do realize Windows 7 does the same thing. It's only an issue more widely talked about now but it has been a thing since Vista and even XP to a very small degree.

 

Microsoft has far less access to your private data than Google does. Google if your using Gmail actually has the private data, all of it in original form. Microsoft has no more access to your private data than your ISP/Phone company does, excluding Office 365.

 

Privacy is dead get over it. Knowing and accepting this then controlling what you put out there is the only effective control of privacy you have and ever had. Do you walk up to every person on the street and say "Hi my full name is, I live at [address], my favorite things to do are [hobbies], these are all my friends". Don't do anything online you wouldn't do in person.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

No it doesn't, private information and application/OS telemetry are very different things. Also you do realize Windows 7 does the same thing. It's only an issue more widely talked about now but it has been a thing since Vista and even XP to a very small degree.

It makes me really sad to see you repeat the same lies the Microsoft Defense Force is desperately trying to make people believe in.

You can not compare the telemetry data Windows 7 collects with the one Windows 10 collects.

 

1) It was optional in Windows 7. This alone makes them in two completely different leagues. I could make a rape analogy, but I think you understand the importance of options and actually following what the user says without one.

 

2) Windows 10 collects WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more info than Windows 7 ever did. You're trying to make the argument that Windows 7 sometimes collected some info (if you were OK with it) is the same as Windows 10 collecting a fuckton of info about you, and disregarding the options of users. For example every time you do a local search on your Windows 10 computer, regardless of what privacy settings you have enabled/disabled, your computer will call home to Microsoft. And yes I mean things like every time you search for a program in the start menu, it calls home. Windows 7 never did anything like it.

 

Sadly I don't have the log files anymore, but I actually spend months collecting data from Windows 7 a few years ago because people were saying that Daz Loader installed spyware (fun fact, it didn't with the version I tried). So I installed Windows 7 in a VM and used Daz Loader, and then looked though months worth of traffic. I never found any suspicious traffic to anything. Not to some Daz server, nor to Microsoft. But as soon as I started looking Windows 10 I was overwhelmed by data going to Microsoft. It really was shocking how much they collected even with everything turned to maximum privacy.

If I had to guess, I'd say more traffic went to Microsoft in an hour in Windows 10, than it did in a month with Windows 7.

 

Seeing people say "Windows 7 did the same thing!" is to me like saying a guy who fucked a drunk girl at a bar one night is the same as a serial rapist. One asks for permission and respects that, and even if it gets an OK from the user it is pretty gentle. The other disregards the users option and then goes ham and doesn't even use lube.

 

Oops... Made a rape analogy after all.

 

Of course, if you install all updates for Windows 7 then chances are it collects a lot of personal information too since Microsoft backported those things, but luckily for Windows 7 users they can just hide those updates.

 

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Microsoft has far less access to your private data than Google does. Google if your using Gmail actually has the private data, all of it in original form. Microsoft has no more access to your private data than your ISP/Phone company does, excluding Office 365.

This is the argument of a three year old. "He started it" or "he did it too" are not excuses.

Microsoft actually has more access to private data than my ISP and phone company. My ISP/Phone company can only see the traffic leaving my computer. Microsoft has access to all local data which are not intended to leave my PC, and they also have access to data before it is encrypted, and after it is decrypted.

 

I am actually pretty shocked that you would even say something this ignorant. Did your account get compromised or something? I've never seen you talk this much bullshit before.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

No it doesn't, private information and application/OS telemetry are very different things. Also you do realize Windows 7 does the same thing. It's only an issue more widely talked about now but it has been a thing since Vista and even XP to a very small degree.

 

Microsoft has far less access to your private data than Google does. Google if your using Gmail actually has the private data, all of it in original form. Microsoft has no more access to your private data than your ISP/Phone company does, excluding Office 365.

 

Privacy is dead get over it. Knowing and accepting this then controlling what you put out there is the only effective control of privacy you have and ever had. Do you walk up to every person on the street and say "Hi my full name is, I live at [address], my favorite things to do are [hobbies], these are all my friends". Don't do anything online you wouldn't do in person.

Thats the issue here, the OS itself doing it and by nature the OS has access to anything on your PC. Even if you do something offline there is no guarantee that it didnt made a shadow copy of that thing/or keep the logs for sending later... Face it, the whole win10 data  gathering is a big black box. No one knows what it does and what it sends, at least in win7 we were able to disable it(that is if you didnt installed updates that contained the backported spyware)...

 

Yeah, you can deny it all you want to but MS pulling some really shady tactics lately so idk why anyone trusts them...

 

Onto google. Yes they are doing data gathering(and they dont even try to hide it), anyone knows that. Thats the price for being free and i handle it as a public place. But MS crossing the line here. Windows isnt that cheap, plus they gathering data(including a keylogger), plus ads and who knows what. Sorry but according to my judgment their trustworthiness is went down the toilet!

[leadeater]

20 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It was optional in Windows 7. This alone makes them in two completely different leagues. I could make a rape analogy, but I think you understand the importance of options and actually following what the user says without one.

Optional but on as default, same as Windows 10.

 

21 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Windows 10 collects WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more info than Windows 7 ever did. You're trying to make the argument that Windows 7 sometimes collected some info (if you were OK with it) is the same as Windows 10 collecting a fuckton of info about you, and disregarding the options of users. For example every time you do a local search on your Windows 10 computer, regardless of what privacy settings you have enabled/disabled, your computer will call home to Microsoft. And yes I mean things like every time you search for a program in the start menu, it calls home. Windows 7 never did anything like it.

I can assure you mine does not do this. I know it doesn't, unlike most I have the logging tools to check.

 

Does Windows 10 collect more data, yea sure it does. Like Windows 7 collected more than Vista, like Vista collected more than XP. Like Mac OS X does too, don't pin this on Microsoft.

 

We are also playing a very big game of assumed guilt/fault. There is communication from a computer to Microsoft, this must be bad and it must contain private data. Does it? Sure that is an interesting debate but I hate assumed guilt, this is the core of what I am objecting to when people throw out this Windows 10 data collection.

 

24 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

This is the argument of a three year old. "He started it" or "he did it too" are not excuses.

No this was intended as a fact check. Who started it doesn't matter, but saying Windows 10 does it as a reason that it is not a good product is very poor. I object to pin point arguments ignoring the context all around it.

 

I don't trust Microsoft any more than any other company.

 

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Privacy is dead get over it. Knowing and accepting this then controlling what you put out there is the only effective control of privacy you have and ever had. Do you walk up to every person on the street and say "Hi my full name is, I live at [address], my favorite things to do are [hobbies], these are all my friends". Don't do anything online you wouldn't do in person.

As stated above, you have a personal responsibility to your privacy and you can control it, or not.

[leadeater]

24 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Onto google. Yes they are doing data gathering(and they dont even try to hide it), anyone knows that. Thats the price for being free and i handle it as a public place. But MS crossing the line here. Windows isnt that cheap, plus they gathering data(including a keylogger), plus ads and who knows what. Sorry but according to my judgment their trustworthiness is went down the toilet!

How is paying for a Microsoft product make it suddenly worse than what Google is doing? Paid or not hold them to the same standard.

[Misanthrope]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

We are also playing a very big game of assumed guilt/fault. There is communication from a computer to Microsoft, this must be bad and it must contain private data. Does it? Sure that is an interesting debate but I hate assumed guilt, this is the core of what I am objecting to when people throw out this Windows 10 data collection.

Actually you're playing a big game of apologetics of the highest order here: Windows shouldn't be fucking calling home to Microsoft at all, for any reason if it's as a result of personal fucking usage of the OS. I don't care what info they're trying to gather or use or how much you insists is not malicious because bottom line is you don't know if the use is malicious or could be malicious or not, only MS knows and I don't trust them.

[leadeater]

Just now, Misanthrope said:

Actually you're playing a big game of apologetics of the highest order here: Windows shouldn't be fucking calling home to Microsoft at all, for any reason if it's as a result of personal fucking usage. I don't care what info they're trying to gather or use or how much you insists is not malicious because bottom line is you don't know if the use is malicious or could be malicious or not, only MS knows and I don't trust them.

Why shouldn't it ever talk to a Microsoft service? There is a huge amount of personal things you could be going and asking of your OS that might need external data access to do it. 

 

Also I never said it wasn't malicious I said everyone is assuming it is.

[leadeater]

Anyway this is off topic to this thread, happy to discuss else where. But I have made my point pretty clear, whether it has been understood or not.

[Dabombinable]

15 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Optional but on as default, same as Windows 10.

*With Windows 7 you can disable updates entirely, or set WU to notify you that there were updates to download and install. Windows 10 forces you to update regardless-at best you can postphone them*

I can assure you mine does not do this. I know it doesn't, unlike most I have the logging tools to check.

 

Does Windows 10 collect more data, yea sure it does. Like Windows 7 collected more than Vista, like Vista collected more than XP. Like Mac OS X does too, don't pin this on Microsoft.
*Why shouldn't we? They are the ones increasing the amount of data they collect, they are the ones who implemented it in the first place beyond optional error reporting. Also, OSX's data collection is entirely optional, Windows 10's data collection isn't.*

 

We are also playing a very big game of assumed guilt/fault. There is communication from a computer to Microsoft, this must be bad and it must contain private data. Does it? Sure that is an interesting debate but I hate assumed guilt, this is the core of what I am objecting to when people throw out this Windows 10 data collection.

 

No this was intended as a fact check. Who started it doesn't matter, but saying Windows 10 does it as a reason that it is not a good product is very poor. I object to pin point arguments ignoring the context all around it.
*Its actually just one of the reasons that makes Windows 10 a poor OS compared to previous ones-and a large one at that.*

 

I don't trust Microsoft any more than any other company.

*Sure.....*

 

As stated above, you have a personal responsibility to your privacy and you can control it, or not.

*You can't do much about it on computers when 1 company is in control of the most used (by far) OS in the world, and the programs most people want or need are only supported by that 1 company's OS. And BTW, can you control your privacy on Windows 10 fully the way you can on other OS? Because its been proven that no matter what you do, Windows 10 will still phone home.*

*Breaking up uotes is difficult*

 

 

BTW, MS originally said that the key logger would only be in the technical preview versions of Windows 10? And guess what-its in the mainstream versions now as well.
 

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Why shouldn't it ever talk to a Microsoft service? There is a huge amount of personal things you could be going and asking of your OS that might need external data access to do it. 

 

Also I never said it wasn't malicious I said everyone is assuming it is.

Riddle me this, did previous versions of Windows require phoning home to Microsoft for example, to search the programs on your computer in the start menu?

[leadeater]

Just now, Dabombinable said:

Riddle me this, did previous versions of Windows require phoning home to Microsoft for example, to search the programs on your computer in the start menu?

No, but the old start menu had no internet searching feature at all. The new ones does, and like Siri can and will lookup anything you ask it to. This can be turned off.

[Dabombinable]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No, but the old start menu had no internet searching feature at all. The new ones does, and like Siri can and will lookup anything you ask it to. This can be turned off.

There is searching the internet, then there is connecting to Microsoft servers.

[leadeater]

@LAwLz @Dabombinable

Well this would explain why my Windows 10 doesn't do it.

 

Quote

Windows and Devices Group head Terry Myerson said in a recent blog post that the company will allow Windows 10 Enterprise users to disable all data collection including telemetry data, though the company doesn't recommend users take that route.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2997213/privacy/microsoft-doesnt-see-windows-10s-mandatory-data-collection-as-a-privacy-risk.html

 

I use Windows 10 Enterprise at home, seems I have the ability to turn things off the general home users don't.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

There is searching the internet, then there is connecting to Microsoft servers.

Microsoft has a search engine, which they REALLY love to push. It's called Bing.... Ewww but anyway.

[Prysin]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Microsoft has a search engine, which they REALLY love to push. It's called Bing.... Ewww but anyway.

Oh it's not that terrible, its way worse.

[leadeater]

@LAwLz @Dabombinable @Misanthrope @jagdtigger

Moved convo trail to new GD topic. Was a bit much to leave in the news thread.

[leadeater]

I will however concede all my usage of Windows since XP on wards has only ever been the enterprise versions so my experiences is clearly much different to the home focused versions. I have been able to turn things off that isn't possible under normal circumstances, this obviously has given me a much different perspective on the Windows 10 data collection issue than I would have otherwise.

[Misanthrope]

37 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Why shouldn't it ever talk to a Microsoft service?

Because as a matter of principle, any collaboration of a non-cloud based product like a non-cloud instance OS should have an opt in (or at the very least a viable opt out) option to enable this communication.

 

Even if Microsoft wants the data to patch things, to improve, whatever. From a security stand point if I want a machine that does not communicate with Microsoft at all unless I tell it to then I should have that. Whatever reasons I have to not want to share any information with Microsoft is my business and nobody elses, certainly not Microsoft's.

[Misanthrope]

47 minutes ago, leadeater said:

How is paying for a Microsoft product make it suddenly worse than what Google is doing? Paid or not hold them to the same standard.

Google does it to. It's just as bad.

 

Now that we have that out of the way: Stop bringing it up as if it was any kind of excuse for Microsoft: Don't care who's more evil we're talking Microsoft, stop changing the topic to Google to make MS look better.

[LAwLz]

29 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Optional but on as default, same as Windows 10.

Not same as Windows 10, because it is not optional in Windows 10.

 

30 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I can assure you mine does not do this. I know it doesn't, unlike most I have the logging tools to check.

Then you are not using Windows 10 Pro like I am, or maybe you have blocked it though some other method (like running one of the bazillion different programs that forcefully turn a lot of things off).

 

30 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Does Windows 10 collect more data, yea sure it does. Like Windows 7 collected more than Vista, like Vista collected more than XP. Like Mac OS X does too, don't pin this on Microsoft.

Why wouldn't I pin Windows 10 collecting huge amounts of personal information on Microsoft?

Yeah other companies does it too, but it's not like I complain about Android to Microsoft, right? Each one has to take responsibility, and blame, over their own products. Windows 10 is something Microsoft made, so I will pin everything related to Windows 10 on them.

 

By the way, OS X asks (or at least used to, haven't checked in newer versions) during installation if users want to send telemetry data. It is a simple yes/no question.

 

 

34 minutes ago, leadeater said:

We are also playing a very big game of assumed guilt/fault. There is communication from a computer to Microsoft, this must be bad and it must contain private data. Does it? Sure that is an interesting debate but I hate assumed guilt, this is the core of what I am objecting to when people throw out this Windows 10 data collection.

Don't give me that kind of bullshit. I know very well what different types of data is. I am not a moron who sees NTP info and goes "oh no Microsoft is spying on me!".

I am not assuming guilty here at all. I am looking at the traffic going out from my PC. I am looking at me enabling/disabling settings in the control panel and them having no effect.

There is a difference between some fool looking at what other people have written and being scared because they don't understand what is going on, and someone educated in the field actually getting their hands dirty and testing.

I don't blindly hate or assume things. I test and make up my own opinions.

Here is an example I recoded when GoodBytes called me a liar for saying that every time you search in Windows 10, it connects to Bing, even when you have online search disabled.

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No this was intended as a fact check. Who started it doesn't matter, but saying Windows 10 does it as a reason that it is not a good product is very poor. I object to pin point arguments ignoring the context all around it.

 

I don't trust Microsoft any more than any other company.

But you are not looking at the context here. People are not just saying "Windows 10 collects data so therefore it is bad". They are saying "I don't like that Windows 10 collect data so I am choosing to use Windows 7 which does not do it at all or to the same degree".

You are looking at Windows 10 in a vacuum, while others are comparing it to other products.

Collection of private information is bad for the consumer. If you had the choice of two OSes which were identical except one harvested a ton of data on you then any rational person would pick the one that didn't. Data collection is a negative thing for the consumers. It does make the product worse.

And since it does make it worse, that might be the deciding factor for why people would rather use a different OS.

If Windows 10 doesn't offer someone anything they care about, but they do care about privacy then installing Windows 10 would result in a net-negative.

 

Everyone also has different values. The people who love everything about Windows 10 except the data collection are probably not the same people who stick with Windows 7, but keeps on using Android and other big data thieves.

 

 

42 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I use Windows 10 Enterprise at home, seems I have the ability to turn things off the general home users don't.

Well that explains it. I use Windows 10 Pro and it shoots like a fire hose even with everything "turned off" or set to minimum.

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Google does it to. It's just as bad.

 

Now that we have that out of the way: Stop bringing it up as if it was any kind of excuse for Microsoft: Don't care who's more evil we're talking Microsoft, stop changing the topic to Google to make MS look better.

I wasn't changing the topic, having a comparison is very important and part of context. I equally object to people constantly targeting one company/product as if they are alone in doing it as you are objecting to what I was saying. And at what point was I trying to make Microsoft look better, other than me saying you can turn something off that I incorrectly thought you could.

 

I see a lot of unjustified hate towards Windows 10 for reasons with poor basis behind it, or at the exclusion of others doing the very same thing. And to me assumed guilt is equally as bad as everything been talked about. Data collection is a contentious issue and one where assumed guilt should not be the foundation of the debate, ever.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

How is paying for a Microsoft product make it suddenly worse than what Google is doing? Paid or not hold them to the same standard.

Its not the same. Google has only access to what you give them. MS through the OS has practically full access. And it is pretty normal that i expect that if i buy a software it wont collect any data if i disable it. Windows ignores all attempts, this classifies it as spyware. End of discussion.

[ybriK]

If a consumer is so paranoid about privacy they might as well go to Arch Linux or Qube OS.

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Don't give me that kind of bullshit. I know very well what different types of data is. I am not a moron who sees NTP info and goes "oh no Microsoft is spying on me!".

I am not assuming guilty here at all. I am looking at the traffic going out from my PC. I am looking at me enabling/disabling settings in the control panel and them having no effect.

There is a difference between some fool looking at what other people have written and being scared because they don't understand what is going on, and someone educated in the field actually getting their hands dirty and testing.

I don't blindly hate or assume things. I test and make up my own opinions.

We still don't exactly know what data is being sent though, getting that information however is unlikely. That is what I meant. Not knowing what is being sent to me is a bigger issue than it being sent.

 

However I do not believe all data being sent to Microsoft is private data, some of it has to be depending on what you are doing.

 

Edit:

I don't mean they need to send private data, only that some of what is being sent is.