US government breaks the 5th amendment

[79wjd]

Since we're still in 2016, I've gotta keep the title nice and click-baity. 

 

So a bit of background, the fifth amendment protects a person from self incrimination --  you can't (legally) be forced to testify against yourself. Well, a Florida court decided they were above the fifth amendment and have ordered an individual to unlock his phone. There has been at least one other case to my knowledge that determined that you can't legally force someone to give up their password as it is a violation of the fifth amendment, but there was another case where the suspect was forced to unlock his phone via his fingerprint. So there is a bit of inconsistency on the matter.

 

I kind of understand why you can be forced to unlock a phone with a fingerprint -- you're forced to give your fingerprints to the police if you're arrested. Although, I also believe that ruling needs to change at some point too since there are some distinctions between giving up your fingerprints on arrest and self-incrimination. Although, you could argue your fingerprints could incriminate you too, but the "reason" for fingerprints afaik is for identification purposes -- possible incrimination is just a plus. 

 

Anyway, back to the matter on hand, the Florida court decided that it wasn't a violation of the fifth amendment because the court already had a strong suspicion that evidence existed on the phone and therefore they have a right to it. Which to me, sounds like complete bullshit -- if you have a strong suspicion (read: 99% confident) that someone is a murderer, you can't legally force them to admit that. So I don't know why that logic applies here....but apparently it does, at least in Florida. 

 

Quote

Providing the passcode does not ‘betray any knowledge [Stahl] may have about the circumstances of the offenses’ for which he is charged,” Judge Anthony Black said, writing for the three-judge panel. “Thus, ‘compelling a suspect to make a nonfactual statement that facilitates the production of evidence’ for which the state has otherwise obtained a warrant based upon evidence independent of the accused’s statements linking the accused to the crime does not offend the privilege.” -- Court of Appeals'

 

In other words, the state already had reasonable cause to believe that the evidence existed on the phone, and it was therefore legal for it to demand access to that evidence.

https://9to5mac.com/2016/12/15/police-unlock-iphone-passcode-court-ruling/

[Starelementpoke]

That's breaking the 5th amendment. Boi, call the supreme court.

[You_are_a_cunt]

It IS Florida, to be fair.

[JCBiggs]

this is why you encrypt everything... sorry officer... i forgot my 28 digit password since i havent been typing it in daily.  

[79wjd]

2 minutes ago, revsilverspine said:

It IS Florida, to be fair.

You know you're bad when even Virginia is better than you. 

 

2 minutes ago, JCBiggs said:

this is why you encrypt everything... sorry officer... i forgot my 28 digit password since i havent been typing it in daily.  

perjury = bad 

 

And that's kind of besides the point -- you shouldn't be in a position where you even have to consider lying to avoid self-incrimination. 

[You_are_a_cunt]

1 minute ago, djdwosk97 said:

You know you're bad when even Virginia is better than you. 

Or Alabama, for that matter.

[JefferyD90]

7 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Since we're still in 2016, I've gotta keep the title nice and click-baity. 

 

So a bit of background, the fifth amendment protects a person from self incrimination --  you can't (legally) be forced to testify against yourself. Well, a Florida court decided they were above the fifth amendment and have ordered an individual to unlock his phone. There has been at least one other case to my knowledge that determined that you can't legally force someone to give up their password as it is a violation of the fifth amendment, but there was another case where the suspect was forced to unlock his phone via his fingerprint. So there is a bit of inconsistency on the matter.

 

I kind of understand why you can be forced to unlock a phone with a fingerprint -- you're forced to give your fingerprints to the police if you're arrested. Although, I also believe that ruling needs to change at some point too since there are some distinctions between giving up your fingerprints on arrest and self-incrimination. Although, you could argue your fingerprints could incriminate you too, but the "reason" for fingerprints afaik is for identification purposes -- possible incrimination is just a plus. 

 

Anyway, back to the matter on hand, the Florida court decided that it wasn't a violation of the fifth amendment because the court already had a strong suspicion that evidence existed on the phone and therefore they have a right to it. Which to me, sounds like complete bullshit -- if you have a strong suspicion (read: 99% confident) that someone is a murderer, you can't legally force them to admit that. So I don't know why that logic applies here....but apparently it does, at least in Florida. 

 

https://9to5mac.com/2016/12/15/police-unlock-iphone-passcode-court-ruling/

Well...  You could just "forget" the code...  I mean its not like they can beat it out of you.

[79wjd]

Just now, JefferyD90 said:

Well...  You could just "forget" the code...  I mean its not like they can beat it out of you.

 

1 minute ago, djdwosk97 said:

perjury = bad 

 

And that's kind of besides the point -- you shouldn't be in a position where you even have to consider lying to avoid self-incrimination. 

 

[JCBiggs]

11 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

You know you're bad when even Virginia is better than you. 

 

perjury = bad 

prove it...

 

 

[79wjd]

Just now, JCBiggs said:

prove it...

 

 

 

That's a dangerous game that the majority of people will lose. 

[JCBiggs]

15 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

That's a dangerous game that the majority of people will lose. 

no its not... what are they going to start water boarding us? they cant prove shit thats in your head... i wouldnt give them shit.  and eventually i would be out of jail for holding up to the 5th, and probably get a nice settlement to. 

[79wjd]

1 minute ago, JCBiggs said:

no its not... what are they going to start water boarding us? they cant prove shit thats in your head... i wouldnt give them shit.  and eventually i would be out of jail for holding up to the 5th, and probably get a nice settlement to. 

Someone doesn't just forget a 28 digit passcode that they had memorized. It's obvious youre either lying or its written down somewhere. In most cases that defense wouldn't hold up.

[JCBiggs]

you sure about that?  

 

your positive that i remember my wifi password that i typed into my router two years ago  thats 30+ digits...

 

 

 

exactly.. you cant prove it.  

[79wjd]

1 minute ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

Probably distinguishing between literally testifying you committed a crime and this, which they might consider simply withholding evidence. What you get with a strict interpretation of the Constitution

"Give evidence as a witness in law court." - Webster 

 

"....nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself...." - fifth amendment 

[79wjd]

2 minutes ago, JCBiggs said:

you sure about that?  

 

your positive that i remember my wifi password that i typed into my router two years ago  thats 30+ digits...

 

 

 

exactly.. you cant prove it.  

Like I said, have fun in jail. That defense won't get you far. 

 

Also, it's s password you typed on a daily basis for an extended period of time. Not one obscure time on a router.

[JCBiggs]

smh... i hope your at the university of Illinois for law... because that would explain your basic misunderstanding of how our republic works. 

[Yamoto42]

13 minutes ago, JCBiggs said:

no its not... what are they going to start water boarding us? they cant prove shit thats in your head... i wouldnt give them shit.  and eventually i would be out of jail for holding up to the 5th, and probably get a nice settlement to. 

Or in jail for Contempt of Court...

[79wjd]

3 minutes ago, JCBiggs said:

smh... i hope your at the university of Illinois for law... because that would explain your basic misunderstanding of how our republic works. 

You're*

[JCBiggs]

11 minutes ago, Yamoto42 said:

Or in jail for Contempt of Court...

that would last a couple of months... even further proving your point that you forgot.. LOL.. now its been 2 months since i typed it in instead of a few days... 

 

this has already been played out... people have done this.  they get to go home and the fbi sends the device to the nsa to unlock... nothing new here.  

 

 

"i forgot"  works. 

[JCBiggs]

12 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

You're*

technically it would be "you're"

[79wjd]

1 minute ago, JCBiggs said:

technically it would be "you're"

Technically*, it would be "you're".*

[JCBiggs]

i wasnt going for the big T

[bigneo]

27 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

...the Florida court decided that it wasn't a violation of the fifth amendment because the court already had a strong suspicion that evidence existed on the phone and therefore they have a right to it. Which to me, sounds like complete bullshit...

 

I'm not American and Personally, I think that court did nothing wrong. If you are innocent - you have nothing to hide, just unlock the phone and prove you are.

 

Why do you think this sounds complete bullshit? I mean it would sound bullshit to me too if I was in the spotlight and had something to hide to cover my own ass.

[tlink]

Do they have a warrant? your phone is not you testifying against yourself, the incriminating information may or may not already be on there. its not forced self incrimination if the evidence was on there before you where ordered to unlock it. your phone is your home, there is a body in the freezer and the police has a warrant but they can't enter because they cant get trough the magically invincible door. forcing you to give the key, is that self incrimination or just following the warrant? i mean this is all smoke and mirrors since the government can easily force someone else to access it if they really need it. 

[jeonjaeng]

25 minutes ago, JefferyD90 said:

Well...  You could just "forget" the code...  I mean its not like they can beat it out of you.

U sure about that bro, nice and warm in here, let me just put my jacket on this camera... looks like a nice spot