Verdict is in, EU demands apple to pay 13 Bilion EUR (+Interest) in taxes owned to Ireland

[2FA]

7 minutes ago, Deletist_Jerk said:

Big news, but I'm still waiting on the bigger news called Panama papers. 

 

It will be a slaughter. 

You are a few months behind.

[patrickjp93]

9 hours ago, Sakkura said:

What, they're going to threaten not to make that enticing trade deal with Europe, TTIP?

 

I'm sure that will be effective.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/30/france-demands-end-to-ttip-trade-talks-matthias-fekl

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/28/eus-ttip-trade-deal-with-the-us-has-collapsed-says-germany/

 

If the U.S. pulled its tech business sales from the E.U. and simply expanded in Asia, it would be fine, and the Europeans would be sunk.

[Sakkura]

Just now, patrickjp93 said:

If the U.S. pulled its tech business sales from the E.U. and simply expanded in Asia, it would be fine, and the Europeans would be sunk.

That's the kind of idiotic bullshit that led to Brexit and the Trump nomination.

[Master Disaster]

Just now, patrickjp93 said:

If the U.S. pulled its tech business sales from the E.U. and simply expanded in Asia, it would be fine, and the Europeans would be sunk.

Doubt it, Asia has a lot of tech manufacturers native to the continent while Europe doesn't. 

[dtaflorida]

European commission find's Apple owes Ireland taxes... Ireland says they don't want it. 

Most ridiculous.

 

If Ireland doesn't want the money, I'll gladly take it. 

 

And in can they really force a country to take money it doesn't want? So... how long did this investigation take and how much did it cost, and to whom is this really a service to? EU money grab.
 

[patrickjp93]

6 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

That's the kind of idiotic bullshit that led to Brexit and the Trump nomination.

How is it idiotic? The U.S. has every right to crack down on the BS its trade partners pull. The EU regulators are out of control power whores who don't base legal decisions purely on the letter of the law and don't even make them to benefit competition. We saw this in how they handled Intel's so-called anticompetitive actions and fined them (iirc) 1.4 billion and seek to collect that without giving a dime of if to AMD. Intel paid in the U.S. but is refusing to do so in the EU, and frankly I agree on principle.

 

6 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Doubt it, Asia has a lot of tech manufacturers native to the continent while Europe doesn't. 

Doubt it would happen, or doubt the effects would be so?

[Deletist_Jerk]

Just now, DeadEyePsycho said:

You are a few months behind.

That was the report on the leak back in April. Not the completion of investigation. 

 

I'd be impressed if largest leak in history saw it's conclusion in 4 months. 

 

 

 

[Sakkura]

11 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

How is it idiotic? The U.S. has every right to crack down on the BS its trade partners pull. The EU regulators are out of control power whores who don't base legal decisions purely on the letter of the law and don't even make them to benefit competition. We saw this in how they handled Intel's so-called anticompetitive actions and fined them (iirc) 1.4 billion and seek to collect that without giving a dime of if to AMD. Intel paid in the U.S. but is refusing to do so in the EU, and frankly I agree on principle.

It's idiotic to cut off your nose to spite your face, which is what you're suggesting. There's no BS being pulled by the EU here, just a conspiracy between a corrupt corporation and a corrupt national government that was proven illegal and punished by the correct process.

 

It's idiotic to call regulators out of control power whores when they are doing their job and following the law to the letter. Your extreme Intel fanboyism does not change the fact that, in the entirely unrelated Intel antitrust case, Intel was proven to have broken the law and was punished according to the letter of the law. Fines are paid to the state, not to victims. There is a court system for civil claims that AMD could have against Intel, provided the claims haven't expired. Which they certainly have by now.

[Master Disaster]

9 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

 

Doubt it would happen, or doubt the effects would be so?

Both. The USA wouldn't turn away from the EU & expanding into Asia would work out to we'll for them.

 

Why would Asia allow their buoyant tech market to be flooded by American imports? Plus it's cheaper to manufacturers in Asia so the American tech would be overpriced compared to Asian tech. It might end up in the weird situation where Asia are making the tech, shipping it to the USA to be retailed and shipped back to Asia to be sold (that's already what happens with Iphones, right?). 

[SpaceGhostC2C]

7 minutes ago, dtaflorida said:

European commission find's Apple owes Ireland taxes... Ireland says they don't want it. 

Most ridiculous.

 

If Ireland doesn't want the money, I'll gladly take it. 

 

And in can they really force a country to take money it doesn't want? So... how long did this investigation take and how much did it cost, and to whom is this really a service to? EU money grab.
 

 

The whole issue is that Ireland favored a tax policy that would get it that 1%, while allowing companies to evade/avoid those 13 billion, and that's why all those companies are officially Ireland-based in the first place. Hence, it's natural the EU and Ireland would have different views, even if Ireland's may seem counterintuitive:

 

- The EU doesn't want companies to use tax havens, much less have a tax haven inside its border. It wants to avoid a "race to the bottom" situation in which countries lower create subsidies or tax breaks to attract businesses from neighboring countries. Otherwise, tax revenue can quickly go to zero, at least for corporate taxes, with little effect on total business (since these companies would still be in the EU without it, it's just their formal location within the EU what's at stake).

 

- Ireland went for these scheme in the first place (it's not like they are surprised about those missing billions), and it doesn't plan to abandon it for the moment being. This type of EU rulings will essentially put an end to their low corporate tax strategy from the last decade or so.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

5 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Fines are paid to the state, not to victims. There is a court system for civil claims that AMD could have against Intel, provided the claims haven't expired. Which they certainly have by now.

Not exactly: competition laws protect consumers, not companies. Hence, the fees are collected by  states (or the EU) to compensate the victims in the eyes of the law (consumers) from the negative effect of practices against competition.

[themctipers]

9 hours ago, Carde said:

See the news and explanations over here:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2923_en.htm


Let's be honest this is hardly surprising and unlikely to be the first case of this kind. Corporate tax evasion and special agreements are being put more and more under the light and while in this case it was deemed illegal a lot of times it is done in a legitimate way. The real question is of course in my opinion how Ethical is it to dodge taxes on scales like these.

There is also the little fact that Apple made an agreement with Ireland and yet Apple gets punished and Ireland gets the cash. It also seems unlikely that apple will leave because no matter where you are in the EU you are now watched like an hawk and getting such sweat deals (with sour aftertaste) are unlikely.

Now it will be without question that they will launch an appeal, after all they are paying their lawyers anyway and 13 billion is still a decent chunk of change even for Apple.

I do wonder what the ripple effect of this will be however, seeing I work for a company that is very creative and I know a few people working for other companies which are creative. Is this going to stand on it's own or will it be the start of an avalanche for more cases? In my opinion a nation should be able to compete with other nations, I believe that governments should run more with a business mindset and this to me is part of it. However as it stands with the EU it is a giant mess of things which are and are not allowed and it seems no one really knows which what how of anything atm. Time will tell I guess.

 

fuck you apple!

i said with 3 iphones and an ipad near me

[patrickjp93]

6 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

It's idiotic to cut off your nose to spite your face, which is what you're suggesting. There's no BS being pulled by the EU here, just a conspiracy between a corrupt corporation and a corrupt national government that was proven illegal and punished by the correct process.

 

It's idiotic to call regulators out of control power whores when they are doing their job and following the law to the letter. Your extreme Intel fanboyism does not change the fact that, in the entirely unrelated Intel antitrust case, Intel was proven to have broken the law and was punished according to the letter of the law. Fines are paid to the state, not to victims. There is a court system for civil claims that AMD could have against Intel, provided the claims haven't expired. Which they certainly have by now.

How is it corrupt to offer lower tax rates than other countries?! It spurs business growth which IS job growth. All it proves is the EU wants money and is only willing to maliciously and improperly prosecute extremely large U.S. companies.

 

They aren't following the law to the letter. As long as Apple is paying the EU the correct amount of tax, the EU should have 0 standing in dealing with Irish tax law.

 

Intel was not proven to have broken the law and is refusing to pay the fine on principle.

8 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Both. The USA wouldn't turn away from the EU & expanding into Asia would work out to we'll for them.

 

Why would Asia allow their buoyant tech market to be flooded by American imports? Plus it's cheaper to manufacturers in Asia so the American tech would be overpriced compared to Asian tech. It might end up in the weird situation where Asia are making the tech, shipping it to the USA to be retailed and shipped back to Asia to be sold (that's already what happens with Iphones, right?). 

Yes it would. The EU is cracking down only on US businesses, and in an entirely unreasonable way. And If we removed negotiated away the Chinese tariffs, the expanded business would eclipse the entire EU market. That is how economic leverage is developed.

 

Asia doesn't have much of a buoyant tech market. It's basically Huawei and no one else.

[patrickjp93]

8 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

 

The whole issue is that Ireland favored a tax policy that would get it that 1%, while allowing companies to evade/avoid those 13 billion, and that's why all those companies are officially Ireland-based in the first place. Hence, it's natural the EU and Ireland would have different views, even if Ireland's may seem counterintuitive:

 

- The EU doesn't want companies to use tax havens, much less have a tax haven inside its border. It wants to avoid a "race to the bottom" situation in which countries lower create subsidies or tax breaks to attract businesses from neighboring countries. Otherwise, tax revenue can quickly go to zero, at least for corporate taxes, with little effect on total business (since these companies would still be in the EU without it, it's just their formal location within the EU what's at stake).

 

- Ireland went for these scheme in the first place (it's not like they are surprised about those missing billions), and it doesn't plan to abandon it for the moment being. This type of EU rulings will essentially put an end to their low corporate tax strategy from the last decade or so.

It'll do no such thing. Subsidies are always a bad thing, but low tax rates require governments to be efficient and fiscally responsible AND serve the interests of their people by not hampering the economy. That race to the bottom on low tax rates is an incredibly good thing from a consumer and from a business perspective.

[Master Disaster]

13 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Yes it would. The EU is cracking down only on US businesses, and in an entirely unreasonable way. And If we removed negotiated away the Chinese tariffs, the expanded business would eclipse the entire EU market. That is how economic leverage is developed.

 

Asia doesn't have much of a buoyant tech market. It's basically Huawei and no one else.

Really? I mean Samsung is just about the biggest "tech company" on the planet but aside from that there's literally thousands of companies churning out cheap tech in Asia, here in the UK most supermarkets stock at least 3 different Asian cheapo TVs.

[patrickjp93]

4 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Really? I mean Samsung is just about the biggest "tech company" on the planet but aside from that there's literally thousands of companies churning out cheap tech in Asia, here in the UK most supermarkets stock at least 3 different Asian cheapo TVs.

Samsung does not sell much in China actually. Japan and South Korea yes, but it has little presence in China, mostly because of the government.

 

The market isn't based in Asia. The jobs are, the firms are, but the market is elsewhere.

[patrickjp93]

4 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Really? I mean Samsung is just about the biggest "tech company" on the planet but aside from that there's literally thousands of companies churning out cheap tech in Asia, here in the UK most supermarkets stock at least 3 different Asian cheapo TVs.

Samsung does not sell much in China actually. Japan and South Korea yes, but it has little presence in China, mostly because of the government.

 

The market isn't based in Asia. The jobs are, the firms are, but the market is elsewhere.

[Nineshadow]

2 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

How is it corrupt to offer lower tax rates than other countries?! It spurs business growth which IS job growth. All it proves is the EU wants money and is only willing to maliciously and improperly prosecute extremely large U.S. companies.

 

They aren't following the law to the letter. As long as Apple is paying the EU the correct amount of tax, the EU should have 0 standing in dealing with Irish tax law.

In 2014, Apple paid $50 in tax to every million it made in profit for most of the world outside America. How is that fair? They are not the only ones doing it in Ireland, oh no, but they're probably the biggest player.

 

In 1991 they struck a deal with the Irish govt. which allowed them to split profits between their Irish branch and a phantom head office. They paid the normal tax rates for their profits on the Ireland branch, but the profits from the phantom head office were tax-free, because under the Irish law it was then considered a "stateless" company and, as such, didn't have to pay taxes.

[Sakkura]

19 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Not exactly: competition laws protect consumers, not companies. Hence, the fees are collected by  states (or the EU) to compensate the victims in the eyes of the law (consumers) from the negative effect of practices against competition.

That's essentially what I was saying. States fine companies for breaking rules, and those rules are put in place to protect consumers or just general societal interests. So the compensation rightly goes to the state.

 

I don't know why AMD didn't sue Intel in the EU. It seems like they would have had a case.

15 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

How is it corrupt to offer lower tax rates than other countries?! It spurs business growth which IS job growth. All it proves is the EU wants money and is only willing to maliciously and improperly prosecute extremely large U.S. companies.

 

They aren't following the law to the letter. As long as Apple is paying the EU the correct amount of tax, the EU should have 0 standing in dealing with Irish tax law.

 

Intel was not proven to have broken the law and is refusing to pay the fine on principle.

It is corrupt to illegally lower the tax rate FOR A PARTICULAR COMPANY, which constitutes state subsidization, which is banned. It does not spur job growth, it just spurs job transfers and a race to the bottom that undermines the tax structure that legislators and citizens would actually prefer.

 

They are following the law to the letter. Intel was proven guilty by the weight of overwhelming evidence, and were appropriately sentenced with a fine that was neither too harsh nor too lenient; it fit the circumstances of  the case. Intel cannot refuse to pay the fine, they paid it in 2009.

[Sakkura]

Edit: WTF is up with these double posts lately.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Sakkura

[Trixanity]

37 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

The EU is cracking down only on US businesses

False. 

 

I'm not sure if it's the media you read that gives you that impression or just 'Murican exceptionalism feeding that theory.

 

Everyone abuses tax havens but some are more able to than others. If you just need a shell company to siphon money out of the EU, then you go to Luxembourg. For instance, there is a single relatively small building in Luxembourg that hosts over 5000 companies. That's not really possible if there was actually any employees there (and there aren't any, I can assure you no one really works there).

 

If you need a cheap call center or similar with actual employees, you open up in Ireland with beneficial tax deals to boot. 

 

If you need lots of skilled employees, you'll have a hard time getting them to move to Ireland, so you'd probably have to sacrifice some of those tax benefits by choosing a more suitable location on the continent - someone mentioned Netherlands which seems like a reasonable place.

 

But back to the idea of US companies only. European companies will have had existing offices for years and years (some even for a century) with lots of skilled employees making it impossible to move around, so only parts of the company can be split up to create those tax havens whereas a US company will arrive and only establish the minimum required presence to do business and in the case of a tech company like Facebook for instance (who only paid like $5000 in taxes if I recall) can really minimize everything and can pretty much pick and choose where to go, so they'll pretty much pack everything they can into a tax haven which is why they get fined (in this case).

 

That's an example of basically taking all they can and giving nothing back. No contribution. Sure, they create some jobs but in the end, they take much more than they give. Yes, they're trying to make a profit but making millions in profit while giving some pocket change back is a poor contribution to the community.

 

With that being said, EU companies still get fined but I doubt it's that high profile in global media. The media is more interested in very recognizable brands like Facebook, Google and Apple than shipping companies or pharmaceutical companies. Although it would be odd if more financial-focused media wouldn't have a story on it particularly if it's based within the EU.

[Slyhawk]

7 hours ago, keNNySOC said:

Still,its allot of money 

its's allot to us not apple and big companies. 

[Sakkura]

43 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

With that being said, EU companies still get fined but I doubt it's that high profile in global media. The media is more interested in very recognizable brands like Facebook, Google and Apple than shipping companies or pharmaceutical companies. Although it would be odd if more financial-focused media wouldn't have a story on it particularly if it's based within the EU.

Well, just last month we had this thing. Big fines for various truck manufacturers, all of them European.

[Tomsen]

2 hours ago, patrickjp93 said:

If the U.S. pulled its tech business sales from the E.U. and simply expanded in Asia, it would be fine, and the Europeans would be sunk.

I most say, this time you actually made me laugh out loud.

The US wouldn't do that for a multitude of reasons. You do realize that the US do get something in return for their sales? Massive political conflict would occour, and the US would also suffer devastating consequences. You can see it kind of a MAD (mutual assured desctruction) thing.

 

Simply expand into asia? I don't even want to comment of how silly that statement is..

[CaliJL]

They'll end up settling for a few billion. Ireland doesn't want to take it because, it'll have to go directly to paying off the national debt, It can't be used for anything else as I understand it. Also it'll probably cause companies to relocate to other countries. The UK politicians are already calling on Apple to relocate there.