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Who does Apple think they are?

ZacMelendez
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Posted
4 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

I've used iMacs in schools as well as a Retina MacBook Pro before it was stolen. I actually liked using the Mac but I can't carry 2 laptops to school.

 

If I could, I would own a Mac and a PC.

 

That is what boot camp is for my friend. If you have a chance go to a hacker fair of a similar convention and you will see all of them use macbooks

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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5 hours ago, ZacMelendez said:

So my dad was looking to buy a new MacBook Pro, and I was looking around the site and came across the Mac Pro. I was configuring some setups, when I created the "God PC". The 12 core, 64 GB DDR3, Dual GPU, and 1 tb of storage. When I saw the price tag, I thought, "Okay. That seems reasonable." But then I fooled around in PCPartPicker, and created the most overkill PC ever. 22 Core Intel Xeon, 128 Gb of DDR4, Dual GTX 1080s, and 1 tb of SSDs. I also included a 4K monitor, a mechanical keyboard and gaming mouse. Only to see that the price was 8500. How can Apple justify the price for the computers they sell when people can build and/or find people to build something of this caliber for them?

what was the actual price of the apple machine you made?

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17 hours ago, brune67 said:

what was the actual price of the apple machine you made?

Probably around $10K

 

21 hours ago, ZacMelendez said:

So my dad was looking to buy a new MacBook Pro, and I was looking around the site and came across the Mac Pro. I was configuring some setups, when I created the "God PC". The 12 core, 64 GB DDR3, Dual GPU, and 1 tb of storage. When I saw the price tag, I thought, "Okay. That seems reasonable." But then I fooled around in PCPartPicker, and created the most overkill PC ever. 22 Core Intel Xeon, 128 Gb of DDR4, Dual GTX 1080s, and 1 tb of SSDs. I also included a 4K monitor, a mechanical keyboard and gaming mouse. Only to see that the price was 8500. How can Apple justify the price for the computers they sell when people can build and/or find people to build something of this caliber for them?

But did you configure the most ridiculous PC ever? No I didn't think so :)

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3 hours ago, Sunshine1868 said:

slow down... that idea of "expensive=better" may apply to some people, but not all... the vast majority of people buying Mac Pros have SERIOUSLY weighed their options and know what they are paying for. And there ARE people buying the 12k outfitted machine; those people are serious professionals who need that performance in their workflow...performance that Mac can deliver reliably and comfortably.

There is a legitimate study that went into this.  People are more likely to complain when you charge less versus charging more.

 

The study went something like there was a sports camp for kids, one week they allowed 50 kids to come for free.  The parents didn't have to do anything other than fill out a review.  The next week they did the same exact camp, with the same drills, coaches, and everything except they charged $50 for each kid.  The parents that paid for it, versus it being free, had far fewer complaints about the camp.  Its a old study that my professor used in college for a economy class, otherwise I'd link it.

 

I promise that paying more for something, makes you value it more.  There is no way around it.  That's what money is, value.

Please spend as much time writing your question, as you want me to spend responding to it.  Take some time, and explain your issue, please!

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Right now nearly all the Macs aren't good value since Apple is refusing to update them. However, when new, offer great value for professionals. Someone already pointed out that you have a key misunderstanding of Apple's target market when you compare their products to GTX 1080s.

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4 hours ago, Sunshine1868 said:

Though I agree there are people who buy Apple machines as a status thing, you have to remember that there are people who buy them as a professional tool. 

the VAST majority of "sheeple" you speak of spend the $1k on a macbook... meanwhile the VAST - DEFINITELY 100% of people buying the top-end Mac Pro are DEFINITELY professionals.

I am one of the people who spent over 1K on a Macbook.  Do you know why?  Because it fit my needs perfectly, and no Windows base laptop I looked at had the full feature set I needed/wanted.    

 

When I want to game I have a 6K+ Custom built PC just for that purpose.  But when I am constantly in and out of my car, having to check a file on the side of the road or having something to take quickly into a house to show a client then I haven't found another laptop that works as well.  I actually gave my wife my 13 inch Retina MBP because the Macbook worked better for my needs.  

 

It isn't always about specs.  In fact most times the specs of a computer don't even matter when it comes to a persons needs.   Can it run office and store the files I need?  Can it run the apps I need and access the pages/site I need to access?   Does the form factor meet my needs?   Is it reliable and easy to use on the go?   

 

Those are the things you look at.   

 

Now.  I will agree the Mac Pro needs a refresh.  But to compare it to gaming inspired build is silly.   It goes back to the discussion a week or so ago about Dell and HP Vs custom builds in an office environment.  At that point the price/performance metric doesn't really apply anymore.  

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@Sunshine1868 microsoft does make computers... of course this doesnt compete with the mac pro but still that claim is untrue either way so i believe you should learn your facts before commenting https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/productID.325716000?vid=325721800

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@21rkosta

It doesn't compete with anything but the iPad Pro...besides, it's being discontinued, didn't you hear?

 

As @KWelz said, Macs offer valuable features to the people who buy them; that is why they buy them.

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14 hours ago, ZacMelendez said:

So my dad was looking to buy a new MacBook Pro, and I was looking around the site and came across the Mac Pro. I was configuring some setups, when I created the "God PC". The 12 core, 64 GB DDR3, Dual GPU, and 1 tb of storage. When I saw the price tag, I thought, "Okay. That seems reasonable." But then I fooled around in PCPartPicker, and created the most overkill PC ever. 22 Core Intel Xeon, 128 Gb of DDR4, Dual GTX 1080s, and 1 tb of SSDs. I also included a 4K monitor, a mechanical keyboard and gaming mouse. Only to see that the price was 8500. How can Apple justify the price for the computers they sell when people can build and/or find people to build something of this caliber for them?

True, Macs are way too overpriced. Why don't you build him a Hackintosh? Mine looks like this -> http://pcpartpicker.com/list/8kN2RG

 

I believe it should perform well. I was supposed to SLI 2 GTX 980 TIs but I learnt SLI is not supported, and also, how does mac pros have dual GPUs? If dual GPU is available, then I can SLI bridge? idk.

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There are 2 reason, why a lot of professionals use Mac over a selfbuilt PC. 

1. It works

2. Warranty

 

I have a Macbook Pro and i mainly use it for Programming (Java, PHP, Javascript and C#) , 3D Modelling (Maya mostly), 2D Motion Graphics (After Effects ) and Editing (Premiere).

I also have a good PC with 2 GTX 770 and an i7 - 460k. I never once had a crash on the Macbook, but a lot on the PC. Also Windows Updates and especially now with Windows 10 Upgrade pushing all the time, it has gotten to be a huge annoiance. 

So you render a huge 3D Modell, leave the PC on overnight, the next day you power your display. Guess what, automatic windows update and it wasn't finishe, cause the pc restarted. 

 

Second the Warranty. Sure if you live on the countryside it might not be a huge problem, because everything takes longer there, but in the city you just call the AppleShop and they are there in an hour. Selfbuilt PC, good luck with sorting that out without spending a huge amount of money or time.

 

Sure PC are much more money efficient, have more power and are more versitile. But people who spend the money on a Mac pay for the comfort, not the money efficiency. 

 

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15 hours ago, bob345 said:

I'd like to see someone attempt to make a pc comparable to the mac pro in the same form factor. Now THAT would be an achievement.

Okay the form FACTOR is impressive, in terms of its size. However, its ugly as hell, and I definitely wouldn't want to pay an extra ~ $2000 just to have a trash can, when I can build a gorgeous PC myself. Also, MSI's vortex is that same form factor, but I think a bit larger, and I haven't been able to view prices for it and customization of it.

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I have configured a mac pro with the specs you listed and it came out at around 10k. The 1080s in your System are your fault at configuring. The D700s in the Mac correspond to the Firepro W9000, which on its own is a 2.5k€ to 3.5k€ card. Your 1080s will have better gaming performance, there it ends. Professional Driver Support, double precision support etc. which you cannot get on consumer grade GPUs. A 10k mac pro is obviously not aimed at gamers, which is why they use these cards.

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Posted

you also get a "bumper-to-bumper", manufacturer-provided warranty with the Mac :) 

 

*fixed :) 

ESXi SysAdmin

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17 hours ago, Sunshine1868 said:

you also get a warranty with the Mac :) 

You get warranty on your parts when you build a PC, just saying

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2 hours ago, ShadowCaptain said:

You get warranty on your parts when you build a PC, just saying

There is a big difference between a warranty for parts and from a Manufacturer.  If I have a problem with one of my Macs I can go to the apple store and have it fixed as quickly as same day or within a couple days if they don't have the part needed.  They also offer on site support.   If a part fails on my custom build I have to go through the RMA process which can be up top 2 weeks with shipping and turnaround time.  In business this is not acceptable.  

 

Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.

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2 minutes ago, KWelz said:

SNIP

 

I am not i disagreeing, and I find Apples warranty and support to be fantastic and I am an apple user myself, and have been for many years, and will continue to buy apple computers, ipads and iphones for myself, family and work

but his post implied that a home built PC had no warranty and Apples did - when in fact, all the parts have their own warranty (sometimes longer)
 

Regarding a business - they could have a custom rig built for them, and have warranty and business support added at a bespoke store, or it could work out better, if a part fails, they can just go buy a part and replace it instantly, or say a GPU fails, remove it, and still use the PC , since macs are unrepairable for the most part - you are foced to reply on their support or expensive third party - a PC you can get help from a myriad of places

It works both ways, I just didnt want people to think self built PCs had no warranty

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1 minute ago, mikat said:

but they can't even output 10 bit color

 

yes they can

http://petapixel.com/2015/10/30/os-x-el-capitan-quietly-unlocked-10-bit-color-in-imacs-and-mac-pros/

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10 minutes ago, ShadowCaptain said:

Snip

All very good points.  And I see what you were getting at now.  

Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.

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Everyone seems to think that workstation components mean it's unquestionably worth the price. Those cards are old, that CPU is old, the socket itself is old, the RAM is DDR3, even the SSD is old and a little slow for a PCIe-based solution if I'm not mistaken. The hardware is old enough that there is no reasonable upgrade path, all additional storage must be external, there's only a single HDMI 1.4 display out, and the reliability of the entire machine's cooling system falls down to one single fan.

 

Professionals looking for high-performance hardware with $10,000 to spend would be absolutely insane to waste it on an outdated and locked-down machine.

 

And, just for fun, let's look at prices; Apple's upgrade cost vs the actual component cost...

 

12-Core Upgrade: $3,500

E5-2697v2: $2,650

 

64GB RAM Upgrade: $1,300

64GB (4x16GB) ECC 1866 DDR3: $450

 

1TB SSD Upgrade: $800

2x 950 Pro 512GB: $650

(Hard to find a direct equivalent.)

 

The GPU is a bit of an exceptional case. It's basically a W9000 chipset, but the cards run at lower clocks, don't offer ECC, and only use CrossfireX. I'm not sure what to compare it to.

"Do as I say, not as I do."

-Because you actually care if it makes sense.

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@Dash Lambda Again, it comes back to a "supported configuration"; Apple guarantees that all of their parts are compatible and work together...aside from that, busy content-creators and professionals have neither the time nor the patience (and maybe not even the know-how) to build their own machine.

I'm sure, given the time you could build your own car for cheaper...but did you build your own car?

ESXi SysAdmin

I have more cores/threads than you...and I use them all

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I think most of us would agree that we would like faster updates on the Mac Pro series.   I miss the old towers that were upgradable   

 

Apple tends to to play it pretty conservative on specs.   They instead look at the overall package.  

 

And the the car comparison is a good one.  

 

Lots st of people like to build hotrods or tinker with their rice burner.   So there is your custom PC.  

 

Others just want something to get through the day like your for accord or Camry.  These would be your average Dell or HP computers.  

 

 

But but some people want something more.  The luxury car.  BMW, Lexus, Bentley.   These are your Apple and boutique PC companies.  You are paying for something specific.  Amazing support, a certain configuration, etc. 

Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.

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39 minutes ago, Sunshine1868 said:

@Dash Lambda Again, it comes back to a "supported configuration"; Apple guarantees that all of their parts are compatible and work together...aside from that, busy content-creators and professionals have neither the time nor the patience (and maybe not even the know-how) to build their own machine.

I'm sure, given the time you could build your own car for cheaper...but did you build your own car?

Custom cars and custom computers are very different.

A car typically has thousands of moving parts and each component is engineered to work with each other in specific configurations because they're designed and manufactured as whole units, not an assemblage of third-party parts. You need specialized (and expensive) tools to do anything involved, and most of the parts are usually proprietary and not circulated in the consumer market.

A computer typically has around 10 parts that are almost as standardized as Lego bricks, each component is a retail product, and you can build an entire machine with a multi-bit screwdriver and a YouTube tutorial. Even choosing the components, the most challenging part of the process for first-time builders, has been trivialized with the existence of forums like this and tools like PCPP.

Making a car is more like making a smartphone or tablet, which is irrelevant here.

 

A content creator, who relies on his machine to make a living, can set aside a few hours to research and build a custom rig that will work far better than the Mac Pro for far less. (Not to mention the fact that a custom machine can be upgraded piece by piece as the technology and the needs of the creator evolve, while a Mac must be replaced entirely.)

 

A consumer can spare the time to research and build a machine that suits their needs before dropping $10,000 on an antiquated product which was never meant for them in the first place.

"Do as I say, not as I do."

-Because you actually care if it makes sense.

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14 minutes ago, Dash Lambda said:

Custom cars and custom computers are very different.

A car typically has thousands of moving parts and each component is engineered to work with each other in specific configurations because they're designed and manufactured as whole units, not an assemblage of third-party parts. You need specialized (and expensive) tools to do anything involved, and most of the parts are usually proprietary and not circulated in the consumer market.

A computer typically has around 10 parts that are almost as standardized as Lego bricks, each component is a retail product, and you can build an entire machine with a multi-bit screwdriver and a YouTube tutorial. Even choosing the components, the most challenging part of the process for first-time builders, has been trivialized with the existence of forums like this and tools like PCPP.

Making a car is more like making a smartphone or tablet, which is irrelevant here.

 

A content creator, who relies on his machine to make a living, can set aside a few hours to research and build a custom rig that will work far better than the Mac Pro for far less. (Not to mention the fact that a custom machine can be upgraded piece by piece as the technology and the needs of the creator evolve, while a Mac must be replaced entirely.)

 

A consumer can spare the time to research and build a machine that suits their needs before dropping $10,000 on an antiquated product which was never meant for them in the first place.

Not trying to be rude, but i dont think you got the point.

Professionals want reliable hardware and good support. Things a custom machine doesn't have.

 

If your graphics card fails, and at the end of the day you still have to deliver a product  - it will be hard with a custom graphics card cause of RMA. 

With apple they can repair most things in a few hours at the apple shop near you. 

 

And the MAC Pro is more like a Smartphone than a custom pc, cause of the formfactor. You cannot built that as a custom rig.

 

Again it is not about consumers, it is about professionals. No consumer should buy a mac pro. a macbook pro yes, but a mac pro won't give them a lot more, but a professional is just at another level, in terms of needs and reliability.

 

And yes a consumer has the time to research, a professional don't have it. And if you work in an industry with equipment where  10 , 000 $ are peanuts, the price doesn't really bother either you or the company. 

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46 minutes ago, Dash Lambda said:

Custom cars and custom computers are very different.

A car typically has thousands of moving parts and each component is engineered to work with each other in specific configurations because they're designed and manufactured as whole units, not an assemblage of third-party parts. You need specialized (and expensive) tools to do anything involved, and most of the parts are usually proprietary and not circulated in the consumer market.

Most cars are actually built using standardized hardware - that makes them cheaper to manufacture and fix. Also, it is illegal in the US to make a car that MUST be fixed by the manufacturer. (side note, the original Land Rover came with a single wrench that could be used to undo EVERY nut & bolt on the automobile)

 

47 minutes ago, Dash Lambda said:

A computer typically has around 10 parts that are almost as standardized as Lego bricks, each component is a retail product, and you can build an entire machine with a multi-bit screwdriver and a YouTube tutorial. Even choosing the components, the most challenging part of the process for first-time builders, has been trivialized with the existence of forums like this and tools like PCPP.

 

There are so many posts on this forum with people finding out that their parts are not compatible, or don't work well together, or parts revert to lower functionality because of another piece. These are all things that a person who needs to get a job done doesn't want to worry about. They want to create content and get it out because that is the job they are paid to do; they are not paid to pick computer parts and put it together. They just want something that works; and if it doesn't work, they can take it to a store and get it fixed/replaced same day.

ESXi SysAdmin

I have more cores/threads than you...and I use them all

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