esports discusion

[chin chin]

so basicly i posted a topic on whether overwatch should be a competitive game.i met with some intresting talks such as discovering that korea just held the first overwatch tournament.in my honesty i think that overwatch is not a competitive game.but someone mentioned Rocket League so that got me thinking whether it could be a viable Esport.so i had a small loan of a million dollars to buy the game and i tried it out.

btw im supreme in csgo and i take csgo very seriously so i think i can critize a little bit.

 

so the barrier to become rly competitive in Rocket league does not seem to big.i mean granted that csgo and lol"s ones are very big.so i will skip server ticks as the game does not require such high reflexes.now im not to sure on whether Rocket League could be a competitive game.it usually depends on the devs to market it as a competitive game.

so im gonna put a poll to see whether more competitive games should be made or should most games made today only be for casual play

[minibois]

"it usually depends on the devs to market it as a competitive game."

or the fans are just huge fans of the games and MAKE the game suitable for competitive play.

Super Smash Bros. is a great example of it, especially Melee. It's really meant as a party game, but the fans turned it into a competitive game.

 

This took some time to mature though, as the game started out much like how a normal person would play the game. Playing 1v1, but with items. Over the time a lot of stuff changed, especially the item thing. 

Now the game has matured and with all the techs discovered in the game (wavedashing, L-cancelling, moonwalking, etc.) it's a VERY competitive scene which many people wouldn't know, just because of the different way they play the game.

 

Every game can become competitive, if it takes off is just a matter of the community. The game developer also matters, but mostly in a financial way. Prize pools in stuff like DOTA, CSGO and LoL tournaments is much higher than Smash Melee tournaments because the game developer pushes the whole competitive scene a lot with the money they give it.

Prize pools in Smash Melee tournaments though usually is under 4000 USD for the top 10 players. Sometimes more in major tournaments, or less in weeklies.

[Guest]

One part of me dont want more competitive games since it takes so much time to get good and i would rather have all the fans of competitive games in 1 place but on the other hand, more games = more competition, which is good for the industry.

[Ao_]

not every game made hasta bee competitive u goise. Fuck and twist me inside my asshole, some ppl even tried to make CLASH OF FUCKING CLANS a competitive sport too, is be liek rly doid? gotta be chill and stay absolute zero you guise

[chin chin]

1 minute ago, Ao_ said:

not every game made hasta bee competitive u goise. Fuck and twist me inside my asshole, some ppl even tried to make CLASH OF FUCKING CLANS a competitive sport too, is be liek rly doid? gotta be chill and stay absolute zero you guise

dankus memeus bro.

[chin chin]

1 minute ago, HydraGaming said:

One part of me dont want more competitive games since it takes so much time to get good and i would rather have all the fans of competitive games in 1 place but on the other hand, more games = more competition, which is good for the industry.

i once felt that when i first played cs 1,6 

i played it casually but i realized that there was a pro scene in the game and i thought it was stupid.......well fuck me

[chin chin]

3 minutes ago, Minibois said:

"it usually depends on the devs to market it as a competitive game."

or the fans are just huge fans of the games and MAKE the game suitable for competitive play.

Super Smash Bros. is a great example of it, especially Melee. It's really meant as a party game, but the fans turned it into a competitive game.

 

This took some time to mature though, as the game started out much like how a normal person would play the game. Playing 1v1, but with items. Over the time a lot of stuff changed, especially the item thing. 

Now the game has matured and with all the techs discovered in the game (wavedashing, L-cancelling, moonwalking, etc.) it's a VERY competitive scene which many people wouldn't know, just because of the different way they play the game.

 

Every game can become competitive, if it takes off is just a matter of the community. The game developer also matters, but mostly in a financial way. Prize pools in stuff like DOTA, CSGO and LoL tournaments is much higher than Smash Melee tournaments because the game developer pushes the whole competitive scene a lot with the money they give it.

Prize pools in Smash Melee tournaments though usually is under 4000 USD for the top 10 players. Sometimes more in major tournaments, or less in weeklies.

thats intresting.devs arent always responsible for the competitive scene but the comunity is mostly responsible for the competitive scene

[Rupe]

" so the barrier to become rly competitive in Rocket league does not seem to big" rocket league is a game with a fantastically high skill ceiling. Often requires quick thinking on the fly and fast reactions do actually come into a fair amount. The nature of the ball physics means it can take ages to perfect ball control, and added in aspects of aerials just creates a game with a very high barrier to competitive. Just watch someone like Kronovi and it becomes obvious, i have spent 600 hours in rocket league and what he and other top tier rocket league players can pull off consistently is amazing to watch and I believe this is what also makes the potential for rocket league to be a strong esports. Although I don't ever see it becoming one of the big names in esports, Psyonix the studio that makes the game is running a tournament with a $75,000 prize pool and I think it has the chance to become popular especially with this kind of support from the developer. 

I don't see the harm in more developers trying to make games aiming at esports. I have enjoyed many of the most popular esports game over my time gaming, starting with halo 3 seshing the MLG gametype. I also played Starcraft 2 with a top rank of platinum. Now I play rocket league and csgo. These types of high skill games that aim for high levels of balance appeal to me, so if more devs want to aim for the esports dream I say go for it, although to be clear this is not because I believe there is currently not enough esports oriented games but because I just don't see the harm in devs aiming for this as it seems to produce fun games for me at least.

On the topic of whether Overwatch can become competitive, im not so sure. I personally don't enjoy watching it nearly as much as something like Csgo, (although I think its really fun to play) although then again people say that Lol and dota are not that fun to watch and see the audiences they pull in due to the size of the player base. Guess we will have to wait and see on that one.

[minibois]

15 minutes ago, chin chin said:

thats intresting.devs arent always responsible for the competitive scene but the comunity is mostly responsible for the competitive scene

Well even if the developer wants the game to be competitive, if the games is just not interesting, not something new, not meant for it, or just doesn't get lucky, it doesn't happen.

Just think about all the failed MOBAs that tried to be DOTA/LoL and failed. 

 

Call of Duty competitive doesn't often gets talked about, because the game before MW3 or maybe even Black Ops 2 wasn't meant for competitive. But when Activision and Microsoft (Xbox) pumped millions of dollars into it and when the developers (Infinity Ward, Treyarch and Sledgehammer) put in all the stuff for competitive, it took off.

Million dollar prize pools, a lot of events from MLG, UMG, etc.

The game was just not really meant for competitive play though, so a lot of stuff was banned, so the game people played at home (even on multiplayer) did not feel like the game they were playing. Stuff like specific guns, equipment and even scorestreaks were banned in competitive play.

This just made the disconnect too huge for it to take off in the mainstream really (that and people started to lose interest in CoD from those games on..). The only place where you had the same rules as competitive CoD was in Black Ops 2's 'League play' mode or Advanced Warfare's 'Ranked play'.

These game modes are not as big as CSGO's competitive mode though... 

[chin chin]

3 minutes ago, Rupe said:

" so the barrier to become rly competitive in Rocket league does not seem to big" rocket league is a game with a fantastically high skill ceiling. Often requires quick thinking on the fly and fast reactions do actually come into a fair amount. The nature of the ball physics means it can take ages to perfect ball control, and added in aspects of aerials just creates a game with a very high barrier to competitive. Just watch someone like Kronovi and it becomes obvious, i have spent 600 hours in rocket league and what he and other top tier rocket league players can pull off consistently is amazing to watch and I believe this is what also makes the potential for rocket league to be a strong esports. Although I don't ever see it becoming one of the big names in esports, Psyonix the studio that makes the game is running a tournament with a $75,000 prize pool and I think it has the chance to become popular especially with this kind of support from the developer. 

I don't see the harm in more developers trying to make games aiming at esports. I have enjoyed many of the most popular esports game over my time gaming, starting with halo 3 seshing the MLG gametype. I also played Starcraft 2 with a top rank of platinum. Now I play rocket league and csgo. These types of high skill games that aim for high levels of balance appeal to me, so if more devs want to aim for the esports dream I say go for it, although to be clear this is not because I believe there is currently not enough esports oriented games but because I just don't see the harm in devs aiming for this as it seems to produce fun games for me at least.

On the topic of whether Overwatch can become competitive, im not so sure. I personally don't enjoy watching it nearly as much as something like Csgo, (although I think its really fun to play) although then again people say that Lol and dota are not that fun to watch and see the audiences they pull in due to the size of the player base. Guess we will have to wait and see on that one.

hey bro.this is coming from a guy who is competitive in csgo.not a racing game.someone just mentioned it in my last post and i decided to take a try.im not saying that it cant be a competitive game any time sooner.its just that it doesnt seem to big in my eyes.i guess i shouldve said that in the post from the begining huh

[positivePXL]

It's games like Rocket League and people who think platform speed-running is an eSport, that gives eSports a bad rep. When people talk, like, "eSports shouldn't be sports, it's just a bunch of kids, and then adults playing kid games," these are the things that they talk about. I feel like eSports, as a genre of gaming and sports culture, should not be considered "sports" in the broadest sense. I think individual eSport games, on an individual, case-by-case basis, can be sports. Like League of Legends, DOTA 2, CS:GO, and Starcraft and etc. These are games that take months and years to get good at, and require gamers to spend hours upon hours every single day in practicing and in competition. Games like Rocket League will have time to prove themselves, but I don't just think any old, casual game, should be considered a competative game, or especially, an eSport. 

[chin chin]

1 minute ago, Minibois said:

Well even if the developer wants the game to be competitive, if the games is just not interesting, not something new, not meant for it, or just doesn't get lucky, it doesn't happen.

Just think about all the failed MOBAs that tried to be DOTA/LoL and failed. 

 

Call of Duty competitive doesn't often gets talked about, because the game before MW3 or maybe even Black Ops 2 wasn't meant for competitive. But when Activision and Microsoft (Xbox) pumped millions of dollars into it and when the developers (Infinity Ward, Treyarch and Sledgehammer) put in all the stuff for competitive, it took off.

Million dollar prize pools, a lot of events from MLG, UMG, etc.

The game was just not really meant for competitive play though, so a lot of stuff was banned, so the game people played at home (even on multiplayer) did not feel like the game they were playing. Stuff like specific guns, equipment and even scorestreaks were banned in competitive play.

This just made the disconnect too huge for it to take off in the mainstream really (that and people started to lose interest in CoD from those games on..). The only place where you had the same rules as competitive CoD was in Black Ops 2's 'League play' mode or Advanced Warfare's 'Ranked play'.

These game modes are not as big as CSGO's competitive mode though... 

thats what i talk about with my brother at night.i rly like to discuss a games viablility to become a competitive game.thats true that not many people talk about the competitive side of COD as the comunity other than consisting of 5 year olds screaming in their mic dont rly think that cod could be a true competitive game.as games like csgo and lol has taken alot of the spotlight of what a true competitive game should be.well once again there is a big margin of each comunity that rly wants to see their game that they have invested so much time in to become a competitive game

[Rupe]

5 minutes ago, chin chin said:

hey bro.this is coming from a guy who is competitive in csgo.not a racing game.someone just mentioned it in my last post and i decided to take a try.im not saying that it cant be a competitive game any time sooner.its just that it doesnt seem to big in my eyes.i guess i shouldve said that in the post from the begining huh

I think I misinterpreted what you said, I thought when you said  " so the barrier to become rly competitive in Rocket league does not seem to big"  I thought you meant it from the perspective of an individual player like skill wise.

 

7 minutes ago, positivePXL said:

It's games like Rocket League and people who think platform speed-running is an eSport, that gives eSports a bad rep. When people talk, like, "eSports shouldn't be sports, it's just a bunch of kids, and then adults playing kid games," these are the things that they talk about.

People that say things like that are not the kind of people that care what games are being played competitively they are the kinds of people that believe  video games in general are for children. So when you say that games such as rocket league give eSports a bad rep I think you are misguided in your thinking. Also Rocket League makes for a good competitive game.

[minibois]

5 minutes ago, chin chin said:

thats what i talk about with my brother at night.i rly like to discuss a games viablility to become a competitive game.thats true that not many people talk about the competitive side of COD as the comunity other than consisting of 5 year olds screaming in their mic dont rly think that cod could be a true competitive game.as games like csgo and lol has taken alot of the spotlight of what a true competitive game should be.well once again there is a big margin of each comunity that rly wants to see their game that they have invested so much time in to become a competitive game

I like thinking about competitive games and where the competitors are from a lot.

 

Position matters as well in most competitive scenes. It matters less for online games, but for local games only it matters a lot.

For example, Super Smash Bros. competitive is 99% based around the USA, a couple of tournaments in Europe and a couple in Japan as well. Since this game is local only (rather than local only for tournaments, but you can still play competitive online like CSGO or LoL) a country's scene is often dominated by the people who live there.

There are only a few non-American players who participate in the high level of play in America. You for example in the Top 10 of Melee only have two European players, all other are from the USA. You have one Japanese player somewhere near the top, but other than those exceptions, the rest are American (well, you have a few Canadian and a Puerto Rican player).

 

If people want to get into the highest level of competitive Smash Bros, they have to be sure they are very good and don't just lose.

This is kind of a vicious circle.

America is the main scene -> European scene doesn't evolve too much -> America is the main scene -> etc.

At pretty much all European events you also see these top players win (Armada and Leffen by the way, Swedish players), probably just because the scene is just not as big in Europe.

15 minutes ago, positivePXL said:

It's games like Rocket League and people who think platform speed-running is an eSport, that gives eSports a bad rep. When people talk, like, "eSports shouldn't be sports, it's just a bunch of kids, and then adults playing kid games," these are the things that they talk about. I feel like eSports, as a genre of gaming and sports culture, should not be considered "sports" in the broadest sense. I think individual eSport games, on an individual, case-by-case basis, can be sports. Like League of Legends, DOTA 2, CS:GO, and Starcraft and etc. These are games that take months and years to get good at, and require gamers to spend hours upon hours every single day in practicing and in competition. Games like Rocket League will have time to prove themselves, but I don't just think any old, casual game, should be considered a competative game, or especially, an eSport. 

I would have to disagree. When people discredit eSports, they discredit them as a whole. To them it doesn't matter if they are playing CS:GO, LoL, Starcraft, Rocket League or even Super Smash Bros.

Games are for many people still all one thing: kids entertainment. Many people come from the times when games didn't have age restrictions, thus they still think games are toys for kids.

It doesn't matter to them if you click away on the screen to make a character move, use a keyboard and mouse and shoot people or use a controller to play RC car football. It's all kids toys and to some it's all nerd shit. Remember when ESPN broadcasted a LoL tournament? People went nuts about how this nerds shit pretending to be sports was on 'their' sports channel.

 

"but I don't just think any old, casual game, should be considered a competative game, or especially, an eSport."

What do you mean by this? Does this refer to the speedrunning thing you were talking about earlier? Or are you referring to competitive games that were actually made as party games?

 

[positivePXL]

9 minutes ago, Minibois said:

Remember when ESPN broadcasted a LoL tournament? People went nuts about how this nerds shit pretending to be sports was on 'their' sports channel.

As I recall, it was a CS:GO tournament, can't remember anymore D:

9 minutes ago, Minibois said:

 

"but I don't just think any old, casual game, should be considered a competative game, or especially, an eSport."

What do you mean by this? Does this refer to the speedrunning thing you were talking about earlier? Or are you referring to competitive games that were actually made as party games?

 

No, more like games such as Minecraft shouldn't be considered sports, but games like DOTA already are. It feels like every time a new PC game is made, they try and introduce a competative aspect and arena. I just don't think every game under the sun that has a multiplayer arena needs to be televised, or considered in the discussion of whether games like LoL, where team members actually live in the same house together to improve trust between members, are actual sports. 

[Rupe]

33 minutes ago, positivePXL said:

No, more like games such as Minecraft shouldn't be considered sports, but games like DOTA already are. It feels like every time a new PC game is made, they try and introduce a competative aspect and arena. I just don't think every game under the sun that has a multiplayer arena needs to be televised, or considered in the discussion of whether games like LoL, where team members actually live in the same house together to improve trust between members, are actual sports. 

For me to see a problem here you would have to demonstrate a situation where a dev would of made a good game, if not for trying to aim it at an Esports audience. You imply that when a game is game made the devs attempt to shoehorn in a competitive mode, I can really think of very few examples of this, and none that negatively effected the rest of the game. No one considers minecraft to be like an Esport, the reason why no one considers games like minecraft an Esport is because it doesn't create the correct environment. You don't get shout casters casting games of minecraft or stadiums of people watching competitive minecraft.

Edit: Used the wrong word...

[positivePXL]

8 minutes ago, Rupe said:

You don't get shout casters casting games of minecraft or stadiums of people watching competitive minecraft.

That isn't the point though, when people have negative things to say about the topic of eSports legitimacy, they include every single video game on the market. 

[Rupe]

6 minutes ago, positivePXL said:

That isn't the point though, when people have negative things to say about the topic of eSports legitimacy, they include every single video game on the market. 

No they don't include any of them. The type of people complaining about eSports legitimacy are usually 50+ years of age and couldn't name a competitive video game. I'm still failing to see an issue here, these attitudes are definitely diminishing, and eSports have had real screen time. Take the example of csgo eLeague being shown on TBS. Again I just don't see an issue here. Some people can be naive about the nature of competitive gaming but who cares, let them

[LogicalDrm]

I got few things to say here. First is that any game with some kind of multiplayer or singleplayer that has scoring/timing can become competitive. Whether it becomes eSport or not, takes combination of fans, sponsors, tournaments and devs.

 

If you look at most popular eSport games at the moment. They all have two or more of above going on. CSGO obviously has long fan base from Counter-Strike days (1999-), dev support, long running tournaments and strong sponsor support. LoL/Dota2 have also long history, based on Defence of the Ancients mod for Warcraft 3 (2003-) and have dev support, tournaments and sponsors going on. LoL actually has only one major tournament and imo depends highly for dev support. Rest of bigger games have few things going on. Fighting games usually have dev support (Namco, Capcom) or just strong fan base (SSBM). Starcraft relys on fan base, tournaments and dev support (South Korea, Blizzard). Hearthstone is Blizzards game so... Call of Duty has made comeback in consoles while being one of better competive fps games in PC first. Mostly fan base and tournaments. I might be missing some big ones here.

 

Now if you start thinking which games have potential to become eSports. Any Blizzard or Valve games would be ones. Both companies have strong support for competitive scene (Valve has been too passive in the past (TF2)). So Overwatch might have a chance. Funny thing as it seems like rip-off from TF2 which had good competitive scene until tournaments dropped it. Back then Valve didn't really support competitive that much. Quake-style games have had long fan base but lost tournament and sponsor support for major part. That style games might comeback at some point with modern styling. Rocket League already has kinda competitive scene but is titled as "good fun" more than competitive game.

 

This thinking could continue forever. But I just felt I needed to point these out.