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NSA Spying no longer just for terrorism investigations.

Trik'Stari
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So. Well there's really no nice way to say it, the FBI no longer needs a warrant to investigate people. Why? Because the NSA doesn't have to get a warrant to spy on people, and the FBI can look at anything the NSA uncovers.

 

Without a warrant.

 

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Defenders of the NSA's mass spying have lost an important talking point: that the erosion of our privacy and associational rights is justified given the focus of surveillance efforts on combating terrorism and protecting the national security. That argument has always been dubious for a number of reasons. But after a November 2015 ruling [.pdf] by the secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) was unsealed this week, it's lost another chunk of its credibility. The ruling confirms that NSA's warrantless spying has been formally approved for use in general criminal investigations. The national security justification has been entirely blown. 

 

That's because the secret court, over the objection of its hand-selected amicus, determined that once information is collected by the NSA for "foreign intelligence" purposes under section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act, that information can be searched by the FBI for regular criminal investigations without any need for a warrant or prior court oversight. Although the FISC has signed off on the FBI's procedures claiming this authority for years, this ruling from late 2015 may be the first time the FISC has actually considered their legality.

 

Section 702 is the law that the government uses to conduct two massive NSA programs: access to communications as they travel the Internet backbone (called Upstream) and access to communications stored with service providers like Google and Facebook (called Prism).

 

According to this ruling, communications like email and Facebook posts collected by the government under the broad authority of section 702 that the FBI has access to—including all "raw" Prism data—can be mined for any "evidence of a crime" and used against you, even if you're inside the United States.

 

The amicus appointed by the FISC, Amy Jeffress a former DOJ attorney, argued:

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"The FBI may query the data using U.S. person identifiers for the purposes of ANY CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION OR EVEN AN ASSESSMENT. THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT THAT THE MATTER BE A SERIOUS ONE, NOR THAT IT HAVE ANY RELATION TO NATIONAL SECURITY...These practices do not comply with...the Fourth Amendment.

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The FISC Court did not listen to its amicus. Instead it applied some faulty (not to mention scary) bootstrap reasoning. 

 

The court questioned whether it's constitutional for the FBI to query NSA intelligence databases to find information to use against Americans in regular criminal investigations unrelated to national security. Government lawyers suggested that "targeting" and "minimization" procedures erase the harm that surveillance causes to Fourth Amendment principles, though we’ve explained why those procedures impose inadequate limits and allow unconstitutional spying to continue.  We're also reminded of Justice Roberts' recentobservation: "the Founders did not fight a revolution to gain the right to government agency protocols."

 

Nevertheless, the FISC court decided that, instead of determining whether the Fourth Amendment was violated by the specific use of NSA collected information against particular Americans in criminal investigations, it only had to determine whether the program "as a whole" violated the Fourth Amendment.  To do that, it perverted a prior case decided by the FISA appeals court, called the FISCR.

 

That case, In Re Directives [.pdf], upheld national security surveillance as a "special need" not subject to the Fourth Amendment's normal warrant requirement, and reasonable specifically because this surveillance was not used for "garden-variety law enforcement." While we disagree with the In Re Directives case, it plainly rested its analysis on when "surveillance is conducted to obtain foreign intelligence for national security purposes."

 

But according to the FISC, that justification only applies at the time of initial collection (including the kind of massive overcollection that is occurring under 702) and can be completely abandoned once the government has its mitts on your communications. 

 

The upshot is that the government needs a national security or foreign intelligence purpose only for the initial collection and analysis of information. Once it has communications in its custody, those limitations no longer apply and the government can troll through it for whatever law enforcement purpose it wants without having to worry about getting a pesky warrant. 

So basically, they only need to have "national security reasons" for the initial collection of your data, after that, they can look through it for any reason, without a warrant.

 

Source: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/04/secret-court-takes-another-bite-out-fourth-amendment

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I feel safer already :|

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They never needed it........

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Arty said:

They never needed it........

 

Did you read the full thing? The FBI is supposed to get warrants to conduct electronic surveillance. Now, they don't have to conduct the surveillance, they can just take whatever the NSA gets by spying on everyone, and look through it for anything and everything.

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Dubs are better than subs

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1 minute ago, Trik'Stari said:

 The FBI is supposed to get warrants to conduct electronic surveillance. 

That's what they told us.

 

I Don't believe a word that comes from their mouth. 

 

 

 

 

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So if I do the same do I need a warrant? Also the data they collect is useless to them, well for normal criminal practices. It is just huge amounts of data that might seem personal to you but when mixed with millions of others similar data yeah glaze right over it. Also I don't think it is really working considering we still have terrorist attacks all the time. Not to mention billions being spent on hacking tools from tax payer money and wonder why the country is in debt. We need a war to reset all the corrupt leaders. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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The claim that it's for fighting terrorism is obviously partially true, but it's definitely not the only or even primary reason, despite what intelligence agencies claim. New legislation is coming into play that makes it easier for organisations like the NSA and GCHQ to spy on citizens, but even then, it's not enabling them to do it, it's just making it legal. They'll continue doing it either way. 

 

The GCHQ has been spying on British citizens for decades, with seemingly minimal safeguards. There were papers released that show that the safeguards are basically a warning message, saying the information accessed can only be used with appropriate reason (what that reason is, who the hell knows. Curiosity, maybe?) and that the employee accessing the information must put a reason for accessing it. There's no mention of anyone actually sorting through the reasons entered to see who is accessing the information without a sufficient reason (still, with the way they are, "bored, LOL" is probably a good enough reason in the eyes of GCHQ and the NSA). Of those caught (in the GCHQ) accessing data without a good reason (personal use, for example), only 4 or so have actually been disciplined (the definition of the discipline carried out is non-existent) and none of them have been fired, despite the sensitive nature of the information. 

This, along with the fact that governments have rejected encryption standards for being too good, goes to show that governments (at least the US and UK) really don't give a shit about citizen's personal privacy. They just want to know everything about everyone, "incase they need it" or because terrorists and thinking of the children.

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This isn't really a "now" thing.  I never put any thought to this kind of thing until a couple years ago (12hr nightshift IT support gives you paranoia).

 

Government agencies like this have never really needed a warrant for anything, they'll just do whatever they want and say it's in the Nations best interest. Unless your argument against the government agency is extremely high profile, you're going to lose and the government is going to be able to get away with whatever they want to.

 

I mean seriously, we have documented evidence of U.S. government agencies admittedly staging terrorist events for political gain then lying about it(TPAJAX Project, 1960's Cuban Projects, Gulf of Tonkin, etc.)

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1 hour ago, Trik'Stari said:

So. Well there's really no nice way to say it, the FBI no longer needs a warrant to investigate people. Why? Because the NSA doesn't have to get a warrant to spy on people, and the FBI can look at anything the NSA uncovers.

 

Without a warrant.

 

So basically, they only need to have "national security reasons" for the initial collection of your data, after that, they can look through it for any reason, without a warrant.

 

Source: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/04/secret-court-takes-another-bite-out-fourth-amendment

But they're not allowed to present the evidence to a court if there was no warrant granted to gather the data.

 

Basically they're not even doing it to catch criminals in general, its just a case of "because we can".

 

And fucking Cameron is hellbent on getting similar powers granted to UK agencies too, its like Cameron is simply Obama's lapdog, running after him everywhere he goes faithfully carrying out any instructions handed down to him.

 

Between the USA and the UK trying to remove freedom and privacy, Putin just waiting for the UK to destroy the EU and with it NATO, the Chinese economy being ready to implode and ISIS things are looking very bleak right now.

 

Let's all move to Canada, carry out a coup and rename it to Linusland, sever all ties with everyone and just wait for it all to blow up, suddenly the Linus Rupee becomes the strongest currency on the planet and we are all filthy rich :P

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11 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Let's all move to Canada, carry out a coup and rename it to Linusland, sever all ties with everyone and just wait for it all to blow up, suddenly the Linus Rupee becomes the strongest currency on the planet and we are all filthy rich :P

YOU ARE A GOD DAMN GENIUS!

 

But to be fair, I was gunna move to Canada anyways if either of the Democrats got elected to the presidency.

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Have any additional credible sources for this besides this one article? I'm not sure how much I can trust a site whose whole purpose is the push their own agenda.

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1 minute ago, TopDollar said:

Have any additional credible sources for this besides this one article? I'm not sure how much I can trust a site whose whole purpose is the push their own agenda.

If its a biased fact, does it make the fact any less factual?

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4 minutes ago, positivePXL said:

If its a biased fact, does it make the fact any less factual?

That's the definition of propaganda.

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Just now, TopDollar said:

That's the definition of propaganda.

Lets just assume that Donald Trump released a document to the public that provided evidence that Hilary Clinton killed somebody by stabbing, would the fact that it came from Trump make the evidence anything less than evidence?

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6 minutes ago, positivePXL said:

If its a biased fact, does it make the fact any less factual?

Define a biased fact because the two terms contradict each other.

 

If its biased then its not a fact and if its a fact it cannot he biased?

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Just now, positivePXL said:

Lets just assume that Donald Trump released a document to the public that provided evidence that Hilary Clinton killed somebody by stabbing, would the fact that it came from Trump make the evidence anything less than evidence?

But how would that be biased?

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2 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

But how would that be biased?

You are probably just not paying attention to American news. Trump is the Republican party front-runner, and Clinton is the Democratic part front-runner. The two directly contradict each-other, and if Trump could oust his primary opponent, it wouldn't just ruin Hilary, it would also tarnish the reputation of the democratic party, and polish his own reputation. If he released such evidence, he would have literally zero opposition in acquiring the presidency of the United States. 

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13 minutes ago, positivePXL said:

You are probably just not paying attention to American news. Trump is the Republican party front-runner, and Clinton is the Democratic part front-runner. The two directly contradict each-other, and if Trump could oust his primary opponent, it wouldn't just ruin Hilary, it would also tarnish the reputation of the democratic party, and polish his own reputation. If he released such evidence, he would have literally zero opposition in acquiring the presidency of the United States. 

That still doesn't make it biased (as long as its true), after all bias just means prejudice.

 

If a referee blatantly disallows a goal, if a teacher gives an undeserved grade to a bad student, if an employer favours a family member over other employees. That's bias.

 

Releasing a truthful document about a political opponent could be called a possible conflict of interest but its not biased in any way.

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1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

That still doesn't make it biased (as long as its true), after all bias just means prejudice.

So the fact that this website found something and released the knowledge to the public, makes the information itself biased? Because from what I see, the information, regardless of the third-party, is still staggering, and is really not helping my paranoia.

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38 minutes ago, TopDollar said:

Have any additional credible sources for this besides this one article? I'm not sure how much I can trust a site whose whole purpose is the push their own agenda.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/03/10/surprise-nsa-data-will-soon-routinely-be-used-for-domestic-policing-that-has-nothing-to-do-with-terrorism/

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/08/fbi-changes-privacy-rules-accessing-nsa-prism-data

 

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160312/07492233880/administration-grants-fbi-more-raw-access-to-nsa-data-just-as-fbi-claims-to-be-implementing-new-minimization-procedures.shtml

 

A couple.

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1 minute ago, positivePXL said:

So the fact that this website found something and released the knowledge to the public, makes the information itself biased? Because from what I see, the information, regardless of the third-party, is still staggering, and is really not helping my paranoia.

That would depend on how they reported the information. If it was reported verbatim and without any spin added then it wouldn't be, the problem is we only have one source and we have no way of knowing if they represented the data truthfully or if they cherry picked what they wanted to backup their own agenda on the matter.

 

Also FTR propaganda is usually just a flat out lie which is presented to the public as a fact and we can say that this is very unlikely to be a flat out lie.

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7 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

That still doesn't make it biased (as long as its true), after all bias just means prejudice.

 

If a referee blatantly disallows a goal, if a teacher gives an undeserved grade to a bad student, if an employer favours a family member over other employees. That's bias.

 

Releasing a truthful document about a political opponent could be called a possible conflict of interest but its not biased in any way.

 

Lol, bias and prejudice are two completely different things.

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2 minutes ago, TidaLWaveZ said:

 

Lol, bias and prejudice are two completely different things.

Like I am biased towards Chevy, but if I wanted, I'd still buy a Ford if it was cheap. Also like how I am prejudiced against most imports, and will never, ever, buy a Toyota. Honestly, it disgusts me how a Japanese franchise can claim to be an 'all american truck' manufacturer.

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2 hours ago, Arty said:

That's what they told us.

 

I Don't believe a word that comes from their mouth. 

 

You shouldn't. Great point.

5 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

That would depend on how they reported the information. If it was reported verbatim and without any spin added then it wouldn't be, the problem is we only have one source and we have no way of knowing if they represented the data truthfully or if they cherry picked what they wanted to backup their own agenda on the matter.

 

Also FTR propaganda is usually just a flat out lie which is presented to the public as a fact and we can say that this is very unlikely to be a flat out lie.

There are many sources. You can google. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=george+orwell&oq=george+orwell&aqs=chrome..69i57.2361j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#tbm=nws&q=FBI+to+use+NSA+data

 

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-fisa-court-records-20160419-story.html

 

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20 minutes ago, positivePXL said:

Like I am biased towards Chevy, but if I wanted, I'd still buy a Ford if it was cheap. Also like how I am prejudiced against most imports, and will never, ever, buy a Toyota. Honestly, it disgusts me how a Japanese franchise can claim to be an 'all american truck' manufacturer.

 

They can correlate but the two words don't mean the same thing.

 

Let's say were talking about a news article.

 

The article is biased if it's not completely objective, meaning it pushes opinion not just fact.

 

For the article to be prejudice it would have to make an unfair judgement without a supporting reason.

 

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