Does Prison Work? DEBATE CLUB 3

[MrDynamicMan]

Hello World, Wlecome to the Debate Club!

Today we will be discussing if the prison system works. Do years in prison actually make you a better person? Is rehabilitation the answer? Can prison cause people to become MORE violent?

Rules:

1- Don't shitpost. Make your stance clear, and explain your reasoning. This goes both ways, don't combat an argument with a throwaway comment, like "hurr durr that's racist" without explaining yourself.

2- Try to keep the anger to a minimum, don't start a flame war and DON'T bring up religious/other sensetive topics because that can really fuel the flames. Keep it civil, this isn't a "which GPU" thread.

3-I will present the topic in the simplest way possible, (often just name, or a linked article(s) if more obscure topic)to avoid seeding bias in the OP. After several posts I will give my own thoughts on the topic once several views have been established.

4: as of now we will not be discussing politics, this may change somewhere down the line, but I don't want to make these threads flame wars.

5: And of course, follow the Code of Conduct.

Topic Suggestion Thread:

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/518185-debate-corner-suggestion-thread/#entry6887357

And of course special thanks to @Volbet for the topic suggestion

[Sam Z Man]

It doesn't work

 

 

Actually take a look at this whole video, It changed my life for the better.

 

The Ted talk this was based off of is also a amazing thing to listen to: https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong?language=en#t-108689

[Enderman]

tbh some prisons are far better than where i live right now...

[warzkaz]

it only works in 

[Ruostunut kokis]

In my opinion, for some individuals, it's necessary if they are deemed too dangerous to have on the loose.

 

However for most people, a rehabitation is a much better option, for both the imprisoned individuals, and society as a whole: if they are willing to redeem themselves, let them have a chance and they could become a functioning part of society again. Unfortunately this doesn't work for everyone, though then I wouldn't know if it would be better to leave them in prisons or send them to mental hospitals.

 

That being said, prisons here are more luxurious than what low-income citizens live with.

[ericlee30]

rehabilitation is not a thing in the United States prison system, it is a known fact that 75% of all inmates return back to prison once released. This is do to how, the parole system works, in one way or another the system is designed to make ex-cons fail while on parole, some is do to the ex-con not fallowing their parole conditions, others is as simple as, "you were late to see your parole officer", because work kept you to long, or you just flat out cant find someone to hire you.

 

The flaw with the prisoners going back so much is not with the prisoners them self's 85% of the time, but the system it was built around and the judgment that inmates get once released ( no hope of anybody looking or treating them as a normal civilian again) is the majority of the reason.

 

One thing I don't understand though is why so many people judge convicts, everyone in this world breaks laws on a daily basis, it is impossible to not break a law in a single day regardless of how small or ridiculous of a law it is, " even if you think you are a law abiding citizen " you break laws too.

[ben dover kid]

There is no one answer to that. For some people its good that they are put to prison, but then there are people who dont belong to prison(for example better place to a drug addict is rehab rather than 20 years in prison).

Also reason to put someone in prison must be very well proved, iv seen these guys being 40 years in prison for rape they didnt commit. If i would be in prison for rape i didnt do for 40years, an apology or money wont be enough, they couldnt -ever- repay that. i bet he would(the guy who was sentenced without a reason), for the rest of his life, plan the most horrible attack against, well, anyone really, he/she would want to do as much damage to society(yes, basically society, who would in that situation care when they would have lost their minds from the anger).I, and all of you out there too, have one chance in this massive interesting universe, one, if that is taken from someone for no reason, im sure that guy would commit the most horrible things he could(im a normal human. im talking about what i, and most likely other people would do in that situation). And nobody could blame him, because he didnt cause that.

I would completely understand that, If that would happen to someone, and they would do the things i said they might, i wouldnt blame the guy who did them, i would blame the thing that caused the situation. We have to be reasonable, careful and fair when we sentence people.

Edit: holy shit this came out... well... hi nsa and fbi. Keep in mind that im a normal human, i promise lol

[Volbet]

Another question that is important to ask is how do we measure how a prison system works?

Does a criminal justice system work if it rehabilitates criminals or does it work if they are succesful in punishing the criminal?

I.E. should we really care if an inmate get ´better´ by being in prison? Should prison only be for punishing people to satisfy out sense of justice?

For example, if I did the unthinkable and raped someone, would it be fair for to only serve 4 months in a sexological clinic rather than maybe 15 years in a prison?

Should the focus be on the prisoners rehabilitation or the victims sense of justice? 

 

It doesn't work

 

Actually take a look at this whole video, It changed my life for the better.

 

The Ted talk this was based off of is also a amazing thing to listen to: https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong?language=en#t-108689

The video puts forth some good arguments, but it also fails in some areas. 

For example, people do get addicted to medical morphine. About 2 million Americans are currently addicted to prescription morphine. 

Also, for some reason the video claims that the Vietnam war veterans didn't suffer from withdrawls, which I could find any source for.

The study by Lee N. Robins, which is the one the example is based on, says nothing about withdrawls or lack thereof. 

But it does mention that the relapse rate for Vietnam veterans was about 5%. which is astonishingly low, seeing how the normal relapse rate is roughly 80%-90%.

 

Lastly, the Bruce Alexander study that is being referenced has failed to be reproduced: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9148292?dopt=Abstract

Both solitary rats and rats in "Rat Heaven" showed a decreasing interst in Morphine laced water over time. 

[Coaxialgamer]

I guess it depends. For some people it does, for others it doesnt. But i think the main problem is the difficulty ex-inmates have when looking for a job. If it was easier for them to find a job, there might not be so many of them that go back to crime in order to survive.

[stconquest]

Does Prison work?  Yes.  It works to keep the small percentage of uncontrollably violent individuals away from an unsuspecting populous.  This assumes an honest judicial system of course.

 

Do prisons make you a better person?  No.

 

Is rehabilitation the answer?  Yes and no.  If the plan is to reintroduce a prisoner into the world again, rehab is a must.

 

Can prison cause people to become MORE violent?  Yes and no.  An individual might have to use violence to defend them selves in prison.  They might even be forced to use violence against another offensively.  These actions do not remove an individual's ability to reason.  Reason is what determines whether or not someone acts violently against others.  Unless prisons strip away a person's ability to think, no prisons do not make an individual any more, or less. violent (inherently).

 

Sorry guys.  My answers are lazy as heck.

[MrDynamicMan]

Another question that is important to ask is how do we measure how a prison system works?

Does a criminal justice system work if it rehabilitates criminals or does it work if they are succesful in punishing the criminal?

I.E. should we really care if an inmate get ´better´ by being in prison? Should prison only be for punishing people to satisfy out sense of justice?

For example, if I did the unthinkable and raped someone, would it be fair for to only serve 4 months in a sexological clinic rather than maybe 15 years in a prison?

Should the focus be on the prisoners rehabilitation or the victims sense of justice? 

 

What is the point in punishment? If I was given the choice between having my (admittedly hypthetical) daughter's rapist being locked up for 15 years and (possibly) raping someone else's kid, or having them in rehab for ~whatver months and never raping again...

Id honestly choose the rehab. It would give me no peace of mind knowing that'd just happen to someone 15 years later.

Again, this is a hypothetical "black or white" situation, and a decision like this is very subjective. Id say repeat offenders AFTER rehab should get the lock and key. And then that raises the question is the repeated rape worth the shot of rehab?

The video puts forth some good arguments, but it also fails in some areas. 

For example, people do get addicted to medical morphine. About 2 million Americans are currently addicted to prescription morphine. 

Also, for some reason the video claims that the Vietnam war veterans didn't suffer from withdrawls, which I could find any source for.

The study by Lee N. Robins, which is the one the example is based on, says nothing about withdrawls or lack thereof. 

But it does mention that the relapse rate for Vietnam veterans was about 5%. which is astonishingly low, seeing how the normal relapse rate is roughly 80%-90%.

 

Lastly, the Bruce Alexander study that is being referenced has failed to be reproduced: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9148292?dopt=Abstract

Both solitary rats and rats in "Rat Heaven" showed a decreasing interst in Morphine laced water over time.

[MrDynamicMan]

Can prison cause people to become MORE violent?  Yes and no.  An individual might have to use violence to defend them selves in prison.  They might even be forced to use violence against another offensively.  These actions do not remove an individual's ability to reason.  Reason is what determines whether or not someone acts violently against others.  Unless prisons strip away a person's ability to think, no prisons do not make an individual any more, or less. violent (inherently).

yes, that would be true in the short term. But after 15 years of being forced to react violently? I dont think they would be left unchanged.

[stconquest]

yes, that would be true in the short term. But after 15 years of being forced to react violently? I dont think they would be left unchanged.

 

Depends on what "unchanged" means.

 

If a person's reasoning is still intact, the change is a product of circumstance.  If you can justify the need for violence while in prison, you might be able to justify the reason for peace while not in prison.

 

What I am saying is that if you are prone to reasoning that violence is okay, prison is not the determining factor that you picked up that rationale.  It might be the reason you are there. 

 

Someone that understands the nature of violence, will not change that understanding by committing acts of violence out of necessity.  That person will always know their actions are wrong.  So it is not changing them per say, but it is changing the choices they would normally make; because of circumstance.

 

'If I was not in prison, I would not have had to smash that guys head in to defend myself.  That was a terrible thing I did.'

[Misanthrope]

For the most part they don't work. The judicial system just doesn't makes an effort to correct the behaviors i.e. mandatory minimum and maximum sentences. Since when can you apply a once size fits all criteria when talking psychiatry? 

 

On the one way you've got people with minor offenses that do not really need much in the way of rehabilitating, just made some bad choices due to duress in their lives but we have a book here that says "you shall be sentenced to at least x amount of years" Yes I know some judges have some leeway in the way they pick up sentences but sometimes they can't go below a minimum and we know the minimum and maximum sentences are used to try to scare people into behaving, utter nonsense.

 

By the same token, some people just cannot be rehabilitated. No matter the efforts, with the treatments we have available right now their brains just work differently and cannot feel empathy, those people need to be confined for life or at least until there's a reasonable certainty a breakthrough was made to rehabilitate said persons. But again, many crimes have mandatory maximum sentences and who better to lie about their state of mind and achieve good behavior and early releases than a sociopath? It's what they do due to their condition so why give them the chance of getting out and inflict them on society?

[Volbet]

 

What is the point in punishment? If I was given the choice between having my (admittedly hypthetical) daughter's rapist being locked up for 15 years and (possibly) raping someone else's kid, or having them in rehab for ~whatver months and never raping again...

Id honestly choose the rehab. It would give me no peace of mind knowing that'd just happen to someone 15 years later.

Again, this is a hypothetical "black or white" situation, and a decision like this is very subjective. Id say repeat offenders AFTER rehab should get the lock and key. And then that raises the question is the repeated rape worth the shot of rehab?

 

The point of punishment and prisons have been discussed by every one from Aristotle to Immanuel Kant.

Some see prisons as a punishment for the criminal, some see it as a way to detere other people from becoming criminals and some see it as a way to rehabilitate the criminal. 

Most people tend to see prison as a way to punish people and they don't really consider the other options. 

Essentially, a lot of people see the court system as a way to acheive vigilante justice by proxy. This is why a lot of media outlets wants us to get enraged by stories about a criminal only getting X amounts of years in prison. 

 

My point was also more to get a common understanding of the word "works" in this context. 

If someone only sees the prison system as a tool for punishment, then the system works in most places. 

When we settle on a definition, then we can talk about whether or not it works. 

[MrDynamicMan]

it only works in 

 

this is actually a really, REALLY good approach. It shows the criminals that they can live a normal, happy, life. 

[warzkaz]

this is actually a really, REALLY good approach. It shows the criminals that they can live a normal, happy, life.

It is rehabilitation, prepares them to be productive members of society, instead of treating like animals which makes them vicious animals

[stconquest]

this is actually a really, REALLY good approach. It shows the criminals that they can live a normal, happy, life. 

 

Helps you realize crime is a socio-economic thing, not a good guy vs bad guy thing.

[Kobathor]

Depends on what you define as "works." Does it work to rehabilitate people? No. Does it work to punish people? Yes. 

 

Kill somebody on purpose? You know what you did, you're going to jail. Rape people? You know what you did, you're going to jail. When you get out of your punishment is when you can be rehabilitated. 

[LokiFire]

Did some time in Military jail, just got beasted every day and was forever bulling boots every day, we got 1 hour of television, guys were so wound up and high wired we would fight regularly as we shared the same room, basically every god for it's self.