The AMD Problem.

[ivan134]

well, that's exactly when nvidia was gaining ground, I can't remember how many 8800gt's and 9800gt's I have seen in builds during that time. Customers are always loyal to products that work, look at Apple.

Thats around the time i got into PC gaming and I can list a bunch of things to show that Nvidia hasnt actually always had superior products and were mostly behind until the 700 series. Just like your apple example, people couldnt actually tell you why they think Nvidia is better, but they "just know."

[ZetZet]

Thats around the time i got into PC gaming and I can list a bunch of things to show that Nvidia hasnt actually always had superior products and were mostly behind until the 700 series. Just like your apple example, people couldnt actually tell you why they think Nvidia is better, but they "just know."

600 series was unmatched by AMD. 7000 series were loud, power hungry and slower. That's why 7970 ghz edition had to come out and shit like that.

[asiancorruption]

yeah

but then again iOS 8

you think ios 8 is bad? ios 9 lagged on 6s before some updates.

[App4that]

Thats around the time i got into PC gaming and I can list a bunch of things to show that Nvidia hasnt actually always had superior products and were mostly behind until the 700 series. Just like your apple example, people couldnt actually tell you why they think Nvidia is better, but they "just know."

And you're different how? Fans are fans, they cherry pick and ignore anything that contradicts their beliefs. I say beliefs because there are quantifiable measurements when looking at GPUs, but there is no quantifiable measure that places one over the other.

[kelvindeschutter]

i hope that AMD is gonna make a comeback white dx12, vulcan, there version of gameworks (forgot the name) and there new gpu`s and cpu`s that will release somewhere next year or early 2017 (thats what i read at least)

[ForsakenLive]

The R9 390 is in cases better than the GTX 970,

But the R9 380 competes with the GTX 960, and the R9 380X is something in between.

 

Many games are just unoptimized, not at all the hardware manufacturer's fault, it's just the game devs doing things by half. From that list I recall Batman, AC and Dying Light to be poorly optimized (haven't tried the others yet).

 

You could also argue that some games don't run as good with Nvidia (like Battlefield 4 when it came out), but it's not their fault. In fact, you should be kinda happy the manufacturers care that much (not out of good heart, it's done because it brings them way more profit), that they add specific game optimizations through their drivers (many times without even having the game dev helping them to do so).

 

Usually around 1-2 months after a popular game release, drivers roll out and enhance the user experience in not-well optimized games. Sometimes it takes longer if there are 'political interests involved', like when AMD has the game as 'Featured AMD Titles', or when Nvdia pulls out their Gameworks shenanigans.

[App4that]

To say it's not a auto manufacturers fault the car has a rough ride on bad roads it bullshit.

[ivan134]

600 series was unmatched by AMD. 7000 series were loud, power hungry and slower. That's why 7970 ghz edition had to come out and shit like that.

Much like Fermi, GCN was made to be a computer monster.

 

http://anandtech.com/show/6025/radeon-hd-7970-ghz-edition-review-catching-up-to-gtx-680/14

 

Fermi had the disadvantage of being manufactured on 40nm.  Computer = higher power consumption, but it still wasn't anything that would make a ding on your electric bill. 60W difference would not even amount to $5 a year. This gap closed with GCN 1.1 with the 290x using only 20W more than a 780 ti. 7970's noise and temperature were taken care of by after market coolers. Seriously "News flash: putting shitty coolers on high end GPUs results in lots of noise and high temperature. More at 11." Maxwell's efficiency comes from stripping a lot of it's compute capabilities.

 

And you're different how? Fans are fans, they cherry pick and ignore anything that contradicts their beliefs. I say beliefs because there are quantifiable measurements when looking at GPUs, but there is no quantifiable measure that places one over the other.

Sorry, but they're not beliefs. I only deal in facts. You're going to have to remind me what "facts" you're talking about that aren't you being grumpy over your Sapphire 390. I've never claimed AMD was a perfect company and they have quite a lot of shortcomings. I'd still take their shortcomings over Nvidia's sabotage and underhanded tactics over the years.

 

While these are not things that make Nvidia's card bad, these are areas they have been behind:

- Not supporting dx 10.1 until their 300M series. Since they had bigger market share back then, and so many devs were partnered with them, we never saw any dx 10.1 game until dx11 era except for one infamous game. ATI's HD 3000 and 4000 series both supported it.

 

- While the HD 7000 did use more power than gtx 600, it was still nothing compared to Fermi vs HD 5000 and 6000.

 

- Gtx 600 and 700 cards did not support dx 11.1 or 11.2 (it was strange when they said they would be supporting dx 12 isntead). It didn't help that MS tied them to Win 8, but when the GPU vendor with the larger market share doesn't support them, nothing is going to come of it.

 

- Maxwell has no hardware support for Async compute. It was cute when they tried to accuse Oxide Games of giving AMD an advantage and they got called out on their BS.

 

Nvidia's sabotage and underhanded tactics:

- The infamous game I mentioned above was Assassins Creed. It had dx 10.1 at launch. When Nvidia saw that ATI was getting better performance in a "The Way It's Meant To Be Played" title, they removed and made bogus claims that it was causing stability issues.

 

- Crysis was released as one of the most unoptimized garbage ever because Nvidia wanted to sell 8800 GTs. When Crytek saw that no one was buying their unoptimized garbage and taking Nvidia's money wasn't worth it, they made sure Crysis Warhead was optimized. It looked just as good as Crysis 1 and ran exponentially better.

 

- For some reason, Crytek bowed to Nvidia again in Crysis 2 and we all know about the tessellation nonsense in that game.

 

- Kepler not getting proper drivers after only being one generation behind.

 

- For GameWorks games, Nvidia sends not only gives libraries but also sends out engineers to help devs. So when they said that 64x tessellation in Witcher 3 was a bug, they were BSing. There's no visual difference between 16x and 64 tessellation, but since Maxwell was all about tessellation improvements, they could crank it up and tell people to ditch their still relevant 700 cards and go buy 900 cards. To add more to Kepler driver issues, 700 series was better than Hawaii at tessellation, but Hawaii/Grenada is competing with Maxwell with HairWorks turned on and leaving 700 in the dust.

 

- To continue about GameWorks, there was no way Nvidia didn't know about Arkham Knight's performance issues before release since they had gameplay trailer on their YouTube channel showcasing a lot of their tech, not too long before the game's release. This didn't stop them from engaging in false advertising.

 

- Not fully disclosing the nature of the 970's VRAM for 3 months, then claiming it was miscommunication between engineering and marketing departments. 3 MONTHS of miscommunication. When people started using the 970 for what it was supposed to be, a 1440p card, it started falling flat on it's face. Nvidia was "smart" to use Dark Souls 2, which is a relatively easy game to runs, to showcase DSR on the 970 during their Maxwell presentation.

 

- AMD has seen massive performance gains in dx 12 with Ashes of the Singularity and Fable Legends. If anyone thinks the indefinite delay of Ark's dx 12 patch, which is a GameWorks games, has nothing to do with that, I have a bridge to sell you.

 

These are just the ones I coould remember off the top of my head. I'll ask you once again to tell me what "facts" it is you're talking about. AMD is not a perfect company, but I'll take their shortcomings any day. You seem to have a strange gripe with a company whom you keep buying cards. Get Pascal when it comes out and all your problems will be solved.

[ivan134]

To say it's not a auto manufacturers fault the car has a rough ride on bad roads it bullshit.

It's not the car manufacturers fault that there are potholes on the road. If you have a problem with potholes, you don't go and talk to Honda. You go and talk to your mayor or governor.

[Longshot]

The R9 390 is in cases better than the GTX 970,

But the R9 380 competes with the GTX 960, and the R9 380X is something in between.

 

Many games are just unoptimized, not at all the hardware manufacturer's fault, it's just the game devs doing things by half. From that list I recall Batman, AC and Dying Light to be poorly optimized (haven't tried the others yet).

 

You could also argue that some games don't run as good with Nvidia (like Battlefield 4 when it came out), but it's not their fault. In fact, you should be kinda happy the manufacturers care that much (not out of good heart, it's done because it brings them way more profit), that they add specific game optimizations through their drivers (many times without even having the game dev helping them to do so).

 

Usually around 1-2 months after a popular game release, drivers roll out and enhance the user experience in not-well optimized games. Sometimes it takes longer if there are 'political interests involved', like when AMD has the game as 'Featured AMD Titles', or when Nvdia pulls out their Gameworks shenanigans.

 

heres the thing. most games are fixed eventually. but most the triple A games that have come out in the past 3 years have run better on NVIDIA Cards and i know AMD ported games too (Hitman Absolution, Tomb Raider 2013) but those are much more rare to see.

 

also Dying light was actually pretty well optimized at launch. it ran at a buttery smooth 60 fps on high for me. but amd users complained it was broken on their side.

[App4that]

It's not the car manufacturers fault that there are potholes on the road. If you have a problem with potholes, you don't go and talk to Honda. You go and talk to your mayor or governor.

Bull shit. Why do cars have suspensions? Pot holes. They are a part of life. Pot holes, bumps, cracks, rocks, and anything else in the road.

You're obsessed with horse power and have no idea what it takes to use it.

[ivan134]

Bull shit. Why do cars have suspensions? Pot holes. They are a part of life. Pot holes, bumps, cracks, rocks, and anything else in the road.

You're obsessed with horse power and have no idea what it takes to use it.

Please tell me you're trolling. Pot holes are not part of life. If your roads have potholes, your politicians are misusing the taxes that you're paying and you should consider electing someone more competent.

[App4that]

Please tell me you're trolling. Pot holes are not part of life. If your roads have potholes, your politicians are misusing the taxes that you're paying and you should consider electing someone more competent.

Well, then let me rephrase. Politicians misusing tax money is a part of life.

You really don't see that there's no difference between glorifying Nvidia or Radeon?

Power is meaningless without control. Radeon has the power advantage, Nvidia has the control advantage. If ether one figures out how to have both, THEN you are allowed to gush.

[ivan134]

Well, then let me rephrase. Politicians misusing tax money is a part of life.

You really don't see that there's no difference between glorifying Nvidia or Radeon?

Power is meaningless without control. Radeon has the power advantage, Nvidia has the control advantage. If ether one figures out how to have both, THEN you are allowed to gush.

And Honda is not responsible for your politician misusing your tax money. Good luck with that.

 

I don't glorify Radeon. They just happen to be the only alternative to the scumbags at Nvidia. It would be dumb for me to glorify a company that I don't work for, have no friends or relatives who work there, nor own any of their stocks. If any other company wants to enter the GPU game, and offer viable alternatives, I'll go with them. If Nvidia decides they're going  to stop their BS, I'll gladly give them patronage, but after 9 years of seeing the same shit, I'm not going to hold my breath and I'm done buying Nvidia GPUs for the foreseeable future.

[App4that]

And Honda is not responsible for your politician misusing your tax money. Good luck with that.

I don't glorify Radeon. They just happen to be the only alternative to the scumbags at Nvidia. It would be dumb for me to glorify a company that I don't work for, have no friends or relatives who work there, nor own any of their stocks. If any other company wants to enter the GPU game, and offer viable alternatives, I'll go with them. If Nvidia decides they're going to stop their BS, I'll gladly give them patronage, but after 9 years of seeing the same shit, I'm not going to hold my breath and I'm done buying Nvidia GPUs for the foreseeable future.

Ah, it is confirmed you don't see it. Pity, you're an intelligent person.

If you have to attack "the other side", you're not being rational. Nvidia and AMD are companies, to survive and prosper that means doing things you won't like. No company that's successful is innocent, the perceived innocence is due to your confirmation bias. Pot holes, ass hat politicians, and companies more interested in profits over their customers are part of life.

Tip the waitress.

[Monarch]

 

my problem with recommending AMD graphics cards is that if an un\optimized game will usually run worse on AMD Cards.

 

 

Examples:

Fallout 4

Dying Light

Batman: Arkham Knight

Shadow of Mordor

COD: AW

 

 

and many more.

 

 

i get that in some cases like GTX 970 vs R9 390, the R9 390 is more powerful but more games run better on the GTX 970.

 

how do you choose between them?

In what universe is Shadow of Mordor unoptimized? That is one of the games where the 970 and 980 get annihilated by the 390 and 390x. The response to unoptimized games is dont buy them. If people dont behave like crack addicts and vote with their wallet, we will stop getting broken games. The answer is not to buy GPU from another vendor. If the problem were with AMD, then you would have a point.

 

 

Arkham Knight: Terrible PC port

Dying Light: Terrible PC port on release, after a patch it ran quite smooth (even though it is was a demanding game) on a GTX 970 and on a AMD 7950

Shadow of Mordor: Ran smoothly on the 970 and the 7950 

Fallout 4: Again terrible PC port (or a typical Bethesda game for that matter)

Didn't play a COD since the first one, so I don't know about that.

 

What's really interesting is that Shadow of Mordor is a game that's really low on draw calls, and it's one of few games where AMD cards can reach their full potential. Coincidence? Nope. 

Do you know why Dying Light ran poorly? It was bottlenecked by the driver thread due to too much draw calls. So they decreased draw distance in order to reduce the amount of draw calls. There's nothing else they could have done. It's the API's fault.

 

Don't you mean 390?

Also, AMD can't fix developer's incompetence.

 

Developers that work on AAA titles aren't incompetent. If they were, they wouldn't be working on them. They're dealing with extremely short, unrealistic deadlines, and very outdated and limiting API (D3D11).

[sandboarder08]

Everyone in this thread needs to watch this and hopefully Amd is about to change the game. Start at 00:58:30 into it.

[PlayStation 2]

Everyone in this thread needs to watch this and hopefully Amd is about to change the game. Start at 00:58:30 into it.

I hope so. I understand proprietary technology is a selling point but in the PC world and especially when it can deliberately hurt the competitor, it's just douchey.

[ivan134]

What's really interesting is that Shadow of Mordor is a game that's really low on draw calls, and it's one of few games where AMD cards can reach their full potential. Coincidence? Nope.

Do you know why Dying Light ran poorly? It was bottlenecked by the driver thread due to too much draw calls. So they decreased draw distance in order to reduce the amount of draw calls. There's nothing else they could have done. It's the API's fault.

Developers that work on AAA titles aren't incompetent. If they were, they wouldn't be working on them. They're dealing with extremely short, unrealistic deadlines, and very outdated and limiting API (D3D11).

Bethesda and Rocksteady had all the time in the world. Bethesda is yet to release a game that isnt buggy.

[Praesi]

Bethesda and Rocksteady had all the time in the world. Bethesda is yet to release a game that isnt buggy.

Bethesda Gamesa are 1:1 since Morrowind. Ridiculous People still complain about it.

And even with Bugs, Beth. Games are Leaders in Case of Fun, Modding and Content. By a Lightyear at least.

[App4that]

Bethesda and Rocksteady had all the time in the world. Bethesda is yet to release a game that isnt buggy.

Name one game launched in the last year which is open world and free of bugs or glitches. One will do.

[ivan134]

Ah, it is confirmed you don't see it. Pity, you're an intelligent person.

If you have to attack "the other side", you're not being rational. Nvidia and AMD are companies, to survive and prosper that means doing things you won't like. No company that's successful is innocent, the perceived innocence is due to your confirmation bias. Pot holes, ass hat politicians, and companies more interested in profits over their customers are part of life.

Tip the waitress.

The difference between you and I is you want to put up the white flag and go "if you cant beat them, join them." While we're only talking about hardware this attitude is why we have problems in the world. You are seriously implying that a car manufacturer is responsible for your unwillingness to put the people YOU elected to task and making sure they dont misuse YOUR tax money. Take a few more minutes to think about what you're saying here.

I also dont think you know what confirmation bias is. I've never said AMD is without fault. They're late with drivers and choosing to focus on double precision instead of single precision hurt them in the dx 11 era. You are equating shortcomings with outright sabotage. Whenever you actually decide to provide evidence of ny confirmation bias, I'm all ears.

[App4that]

The difference between you and I is you want to put up the white flag and go "if you cant beat them, join them." While we're only talking about hardware this attitude is why we have problems in the world. You are seriously implying that a car manufacturer is responsible for your unwillingness to put the people YOU elected to task and making sure they dont misuse YOUR tax money. Take a few more minutes to think about what you're saying here.

I also dont think you know what confirmation bias is. I've never said AMD is without fault. They're late with drivers and choosing to focus on double precision instead of single precision hurt them in the dx 11 era. You are equating shortcomings with outright sabotage. Whenever you actually decide to provide evidence of ny confirmation bias, I'm all ears.

*sigh*

 

Do you know how you win a battle against an opponent you have no hope of beating conventionally? You don't play/fight. Since we are having this conversation, you have my proof.

 

Now, where your blindness lies is that you honestly think one is better than the other. This could be the 390/970, AMD/Nvidia, or red/blue. Now you're completely within your right to have an opinion. Since for you one is better than the other. But demonizing the other and/or those who support it is not.

[ivan134]

*sigh*

Do you know how you win a battle against an opponent you have no hope of beating conventionally? You don't play/fight. Since we are having this conversation, you have my proof.

Now, where your blindness lies is that you honestly think one is better than the other. This could be the 390/970, AMD/Nvidia, or red/blue. Now you're completely within your right to have an opinion. Since for you one is better than the other. But demonizing the other and/or those who support it is not.

What are you talking about? Nvidia currently has no compelling products below the 980 ti. How is that opinion? They're getting beat at performance per dollar everywhere. Before the 300 series, I was recommending the 970 because it was beating the 290x for $300. I still recommend a 980 ti over a fury x. What I've been telling you so far is MY personal stance towards Nvidia. I have never and never will recommmend an inferior product to someone else based on my personal beef. 390 shits on the 970' period. Nvidia using their influence for unearned advantages is not a reason for me to recommend a 970 over a 390. Neither are broken games.

[ivan134]

Bethesda Gamesa are 1:1 since Morrowind. Ridiculous People still complain about it.

And even with Bugs, Beth. Games are Leaders in Case of Fun, Modding and Content. By a Lightyear at least.

Its a good thing I was talkng performance and game/immersion breakng bugs and not any of things you mentioned. Good to see you're paying attention. Im also not sure why you think Bethesda should get credit for mods other people made so their games dont like shit.