AMD's Zen architecture will be late

[Zah]

Nothing is going to change with any other dx12 game that uses async compute. Maxwell is going to suck at any future dx 12 game that uses it because Maxwell does not do compute, period. What performance will look like on other dx 12 games that don't use it, is still up in the air.

Except Maxwell does do compute, just differently, and some argue less efficient.  You are making bold claims that you don't have support for.

[AresKrieger]

This is why we can't even mention AMD or Nvidia it devolves so quickly honestly from my point of view amd is  incompetent and whinny while nvidia is evil, now from my point of view buying amd right now is risky, not because of the cards themselves (the cpus are another story) but the instability of their company.

[Notional]

What "games"?  We still have ONE benchmark game to go on.  For the last time, people, wait for more games to benchmark.

 

We only have tangible benchmarks from that one game, but from the same dev, we know that console devs are gaing 30-50% performance by using async compute on GCN hardware on the console. We know more devs are working with AMD now because of GCN based consoles. You can read more here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1569897/various-ashes-of-the-singularity-dx12-benchmarks/1200#post_24356995

 

Plenty of DX12 AAA ga​mes coming the next 6 months.

[ivan134]

Except Maxwell does do compute, just differently, and some argue less efficient.  You are making bold claims that you don't have support for.

LOL, Differently is one way to put what Maxwell does.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/213519-asynchronous-shading-amd-nvidia-and-dx12-what-we-know-so-far

 

Let's also not forget that GCN and even Intel are far superior in VR than Maxwell, BUT HURR DURR, PERF PER WATT.

[Zah]

We only have tangible benchmarks from that one game, but from the same dev, we know that console devs are gaing 30-50% performance by using async compute on GCN hardware on the console. We know more devs are working with AMD now because of GCN based consoles. You can read more here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1569897/various-ashes-of-the-singularity-dx12-benchmarks/1200#post_24356995

 

Plenty of DX12 AAA ga​mes coming the next 6 months.

Yes, but in your post you said NOW.  Not in the next 6 months.  And while I do agree that in DX12 games, and games coming from consoles AMD will have a larger increase than Nvidia, what about NON-AAA games?  Games that are still in DX11?  Games that aren't taking advantage of A-sync compute (because they never coded for consoles so are not used to coding compute) in DX12, and other variables.  I think it's just incredibly early to call things at this very moment.

[Notional]

Lol.

 

This is amazing.

 

In other words you have no proof, knowledge or sources backing up your point? You should really read up on the Ashes of th Singularity. It's really interesting to read directly from a developer about these advanced things. I made a thread about it, knock yourself out. Heck you might even learn something

 

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/432063-first-directx-12-game-benchmarked-update-2-more-benchmarks/?view=findpost&p=5792302​

[AresKrieger]

LOL, Differently is one way to put what Maxwell does.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/213519-asynchronous-shading-amd-nvidia-and-dx12-what-we-know-so-far

 

Let's also not forget that GCN and even Intel are far superior in VR than Maxwell, BUT HURR DURR, PERF PER WATT.

Your statement puzzles me, maxwell 2.0 can async compute, for reference the titan is not 2.0, test were done with the titan intially; async compute is not NATIVELY supported which means its locked by software not hardware will amd's gpus use this feature better yes but is this dx12 only feature for performance no, however as I stated previously the titan is fucked

[ivan134]

Yes, but in your post you said NOW.  Not in the next 6 months.  And while I do agree that in DX12 games, and games coming from consoles AMD will have a larger increase than Nvidia, what about NON-AAA games?  Games that are still in DX11?  Games that aren't taking advantage of A-sync compute (because they never coded for consoles so are not used to coding compute) in DX12, and other variables.  I think it's just incredibly early to call things at this very moment.

I'm not sure what benchmarks from space you people are looking at, but AMD does spectacular in dx 11. AMD wins at every price bracket except 980 ti vs Fury X and the new gtx 950.

[AlwaysFSX]

GCN has been made for async compute and compute in general since day one. That is what the ACE units are for. Async compute was indeed a thing in mantle, and is being used in the consoles that has been underway for many years and is hitting close to 2 years old now.

 

The way nvidia achieved their efficiency is amongst other, to remove the hardware scheduler for (async) compute, and gimp the compute capabilities of the card. Sure that was a good way to go, as they could shove the efficiency stuff everywhere, and everyone ate it up. No one took the time to ask, at what consequence. We see that now, that the cards are going to suffer in DX12. Heck the 980ti is only a few months old, and we are already seeing games that render it obsolete. But we know nvidia uses planned obsoletion, but this is just ridiculous.

Async compute has been and still is irrelevant. Just because GCN has supported it doesn't mean they're way ahead of Nvidia, just wasting their time and money on resources that aren't being used. DX12 isn't going to be a serious thing for another year until games come out having full support along with OS support. The majority of gamers are still running Windows 7 and 8, not 10. So you aren't going to be seeing games come out this xmas with straight DX12 support with all those bells and whistles you would hope for. It's not going to happen. So it doesn't matter if Nvidia doesn't have async compute hardware in their Maxwell cards. It wasn't needed a year ago when the cards launched because DX12 wasn't going to be a thing for another year minimum, most likely two. So what's the point of putting that on cards where people are just going to upgrade again later?

 

You whine because Nvidia does "planned obsolesce" when in reality it's the consumers that cause that, not a company.

 

Also, why does async not being a thing for dx11 matter when Nvidia sold Maxwell as dx 12 ready? You're conveniently ignoring that part.

No I'm not because it was never brought up.  :rolleyes: Just because a card is missing one or more features doesn't mean it isn't "ready for DX12." This has been a thing for every generation of cards that has been there for a new version of DX, the only difference this time around is people that think they know everything and we need to pussyfoot around their poor little egos so they don't get a boo-boo on their egos. Nvidia not having async compute hardware in their Maxwell cards honestly doesn't matter. It can be done driver-side with good enough performance for the handful of games that will use DX12 (albeit they won't even fully utilize DX12, as always) so people just just end up buying newer generation cards from both brands that have 100% support that time around.

 

It just does not matter.

[Zah]

I'm not sure what benchmarks from space you people are looking at, but AMD does spectacular in dx 11. AMD wins at every price bracket except 980 ti vs Fury X and the new gtx 950.

AMD wins at every price bracket besides that because they have a larger saturation of price points, not because they have better DX11 support.

[ivan134]

Your statement puzzles me, maxwell 2.0 can async compute, for reference the titan is not 2.0, test were done with the titan intially; async compute is not NATIVELY supported which means its locked by software not hardware will amd's gpus use this feature better yes but is this dx12 only feature for performance no, however as I stated previously the titan is fucked

I guess people are arguing semantics so I'll clarify. I didn't mean Maxwell can't do async compute at all, I meant they're fucking terrible at it. It's so bad that Nvidia asked the devs to turn it off for Nvidia cards.

[Guest Kloaked]

In other words you have no proof, knowledge or sources backing up your point? You should really read up on the Ashes of th Singularity. It's really interesting to read directly from a developer about these advanced things. I made a thread about it, knock yourself out. Heck you might even learn something

 

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/432063-first-directx-12-game-benchmarked-update-2-more-benchmarks/?view=findpost&p=5792302​

 

Lol. Here again, you are being so hypocritical. Surprise surprise.

[ivan134]

AMD wins at every price bracket besides that because they have a larger saturation of price points, not because they have better DX11 support.

Please clarify exact what the hell this means.

[Deletive]

Nothing is going to change with any other dx12 game that uses async compute. Maxwell is going to suck at any future dx 12 game that uses it because Maxwell does not do compute, period. What performance will look like on other dx 12 games that don't use it, is still up in the air.

 

Shallow 64 command Queue on AMD from 8 ACE's, while 31 queues from a 1 deeper ACE on maxwell. <31 Maxwell has pretty decide compute, while amd is noticably more stable compute times. 

[ivan134]

Async compute has been and still is irrelevant. Just because GCN has supported it doesn't mean they're way ahead of Nvidia, just wasting their time and money on resources that aren't being used. DX12 isn't going to be a serious thing for another year until games come out having full support along with OS support. The majority of gamers are still running Windows 7 and 8, not 10. So you aren't going to be seeing games come out this xmas with straight DX12 support with all those bells and whistles you would hope for. It's not going to happen. So it doesn't matter if Nvidia doesn't have async compute hardware in their Maxwell cards. It wasn't needed a year ago when the cards launched because DX12 wasn't going to be a thing for another year minimum, most likely two. So what's the point of putting that on cards where people are just going to upgrade again later?

 

You whine because Nvidia does "planned obsolesce" when in reality it's the consumers that cause that, not a company.

 

No I'm not because it was never brought up.  :rolleyes: Just because a card is missing one or more features doesn't mean it isn't "ready for DX12." This has been a thing for every generation of cards that has been there for a new version of DX, the only difference this time around is people that think they know everything and we need to pussyfoot around their poor little egos so they don't get a boo-boo on their egos. Nvidia not having async compute hardware in their Maxwell cards honestly doesn't matter. It can be done driver-side with good enough performance for the handful of games that will use DX12 (albeit they won't even fully utilize DX12, as always) so people just just end up buying newer generation cards from both brands that have 100% support that time around.

 

It just does not matter.

Are you speaking for all Maxwell owners or just for yourself? I'm not going to claim to either, but you should probably not speak for people who thought they bought a card that would last them at least 3 years.

[AlwaysFSX]

Are you speaking for all Maxwell owners or just for yourself? I'm not going to claim to either, but you should probably not speak for people who thought they bought a card that would last them at least 3 years.

And it will. For both groups their cards will last three years, just not run as well. But that happens ALL THE TIME. In general people upgrade every generation. It's the largest group of the market so that's who will be catered towards.

[ivan134]

And it will. For both groups their cards will last three years, just not run as well. But that happens ALL THE TIME. In general people upgrade every generation. It's the largest group of the market so that's who will be catered towards.

Lol, you really should do stand up.

[Guest Kloaked]

Lol, you really should do stand up.

 

Do you not pay attention to the internet at all?

[Zah]

Please clarify exact what the hell this means.

I was going to type something out but realized I couldn't actually come up with a super good description of this.  The main thing I wanted to say is that the multiple cards in in price point region for AMD allow them to beat nvidia in those brackets, because they have more selection of choice.  But I'm not eloquent enough to type it out.

[ivan134]

I was going to type something out but realized I couldn't actually come up with a super good description of this.  The main thing I wanted to say is that the multiple cards in in price point region for AMD allow them to beat nvidia in those brackets, because they have more selection of choice.  But I'm not eloquent enough to type it out.

You're eloquent enough, but no amount of eloquence could help you with your spin.

[AlwaysFSX]

Do you not pay attention to the internet at all?

Or markets.. or business sense in the slightest..

[AresKrieger]

I guess people are arguing semantics so I'll clarify. I didn't mean Maxwell can't do async compute at all, I meant they're fucking terrible at it. It's so bad that Nvidia asked the devs to turn it off for Nvidia cards.

that's all I was annoyed with, stating facts is fine just be clearer with them and then less will argue you (or maybe not this is a flame war at this point), i have no problem with amd, if the 390 existed when I got my 970 I probably would have that but who knows, we'll see in the next 6 months how it goes 

[Notional]

Yes, but in your post you said NOW.  Not in the next 6 months.  And while I do agree that in DX12 games, and games coming from consoles AMD will have a larger increase than Nvidia, what about NON-AAA games?  Games that are still in DX11?  Games that aren't taking advantage of A-sync compute (because they never coded for consoles so are not used to coding compute) in DX12, and other variables.  I think it's just incredibly early to call things at this very moment.

 

I said we now know why the hardware was more effective. Not sure you read my post right. Not sure any of those games would be able to push the hardware below 60hz anyways, if even less than 144hz.

 

Your statement puzzles me, maxwell 2.0 can async compute, for reference the titan is not 2.0, test were done with the titan intially; async compute is not NATIVELY supported which means its locked by software not hardware will amd's gpus use this feature better yes but is this dx12 only feature for performance no, however as I stated previously the titan is fucked

 

It can indeed, but only by slow CPU based content switching done by a driver. It's very slow to do so and ineffective. We might see NVidia specific code paths in DX 12 games to completely circumvent async compute.

 

Async compute has been and still is irrelevant. Just because GCN has supported it doesn't mean they're way ahead of Nvidia, just wasting their time and money on resources that aren't being used. DX12 isn't going to be a serious thing for another year until games come out having full support along with OS support. The majority of gamers are still running Windows 7 and 8, not 10. So you aren't going to be seeing games come out this xmas with straight DX12 support with all those bells and whistles you would hope for. It's not going to happen. So it doesn't matter if Nvidia doesn't have async compute hardware in their Maxwell cards. It wasn't needed a year ago when the cards launched because DX12 wasn't going to be a thing for another year minimum, most likely two. So what's the point of putting that on cards where people are just going to upgrade again later?

 

You whine because Nvidia does "planned obsolesce" when in reality it's the consumers that cause that, not a company.

 

No I'm not because it was never brought up.  :rolleyes: Just because a card is missing one or more features doesn't mean it isn't "ready for DX12." This has been a thing for every generation of cards that has been there for a new version of DX, the only difference this time around is people that think they know everything and we need to pussyfoot around their poor little egos so they don't get a boo-boo on their egos. Nvidia not having async compute hardware in their Maxwell cards honestly doesn't matter. It can be done driver-side with good enough performance for the handful of games that will use DX12 (albeit they won't even fully utilize DX12, as always) so people just just end up buying newer generation cards from both brands that have 100% support that time around.

 

It just does not matter.

 

Irrelevant for the games on the market right now, sure. But like I said, mutliple AAA games coming out the next 6 months should change that. We are talking about a card series aout a year old (or so?), and a 980ti only a few months old, being obsolete for new games (as in performance gimped). I'm sure the devs will find a way to circumvent async compute on NVidia hardware, but I think most DX12 games using it will have a performance boost on AMD. And yes those games in the next 6 months has full DX12 support. Most Windows users can get it right now. AotS will have all the bells and whistles and realesed this year.

 

It sounds like you support NVidia's planned obsolesence? Having a high end card for just 1 year before it's completely gimped? Or their highest end gaming card, 980ti for less than half a year, before the first games are gimped? Most people have their cards for several years. Only hardware enthusiasts in places like here wants to replace them more often.

 

Sure NVidia is ready for DX12. And NVidia cards will run DX12 games. No problem as such. However the cards might end up getting gimped in performance compared to AMD cards.

 

Lol. Here again, you are being so hypocritical. Surprise surprise.

 

Again you deliver nothing constructive or useful to the debate. I don't have schadenfreude for NVidia users. I think it's a ripoff and feel sorry for them. Why defend NVidia in planned obscolescence? Then again most in here seems to support vendor lock in, and black boxed middleware.

[SeriousDad69]

Looks like I have over a year to save up for a new PC lol. I don't mind, DX12 will give the FX 6xxx and 8xxx processors new life.

[AlwaysFSX]

Irrelevant for the games on the market right now, sure. But like I said, mutliple AAA games coming out the next 6 months should change that. We are talking about a card series aout a year old (or so?), and a 980ti only a few months old, being obsolete for new games (as in performance gimped). I'm sure the devs will find a way to circumvent async compute on NVidia hardware, but I think most DX12 games using it will have a performance boost on AMD. And yes those games in the next 6 months has full DX12 support. Most Windows users can get it right now. AotS will have all the bells and whistles and realesed this year.

 

It sounds like you support NVidia's planned obsolesence? Having a high end card for just 1 year before it's completely gimped? Or their highest end gaming card, 980ti for less than half a year, before the first games are gimped? Most people have their cards for several years. Only hardware enthusiasts in places like here wants to replace them more often.

 

Sure NVidia is ready for DX12. And NVidia cards will run DX12 games. No problem as such. However the cards might end up getting gimped in performance compared to AMD cards.

History has shown that new versions of DX aren't really supported out of the gates like that. I mean we still have DX9 support for god sakes. I just don't see it being relevant. Nvidia can Frankenstein async computer to work more than well enough through drivers on Maxwell cards so they should do fine for another year. As I said earlier, in general most people upgrade every generation, if they didn't then Nvidia would give bigger incentives to upgrade to newer cards. Let alone that DX12 isn't going to be all that popular because Windows 10 still has lackluster adoption it all adds up to:

 

It doesn't matter what Nvidia or AMD does right now.