iPad Surface Pro

[79wjd]

Continuity: The Surface 3/3 Pro can run programs dating back to Windows 95

Superior touch optimised OS: Windows 8.1/10 are optimised for touchscreens and can install any program.

Higher Resolution screen: As you said that doesn't really matter, higher resolutions are better suited to larger screens.

Stylus: The stylus quite simply allows you to use it in place of your fingers-preventing dirty screens

Other: You really haven't listed that many at all, and they actually translate straight to the Surface

Also, the Surface isn't locked to the App store, it can fit a full sized USB and you can easily move any files to and from it without OSX and iTunes. Oh and its still x86.

That's not what continuity is. 

 

While W8.1/10 were designed for touch, OSX still has a superior touch interface as it's a true touch OS whereas 8.1/10 are hybrid touch/not.

 

Yes, the stylus offers another means of interfacing with the device, but it can also be more than just that. It can have added functionality -- whether or not that Apple stylus has that I do not know. 

 

Go find someone who has actually used an iPad and a Surface and I'm sure they can come up with a bunch more, I just don't use tablets all too often as I find them useless in general (although, you don't see me shitting on them, because I can grasp the concept that just because something doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to someone else).

 

Being locked to the app store isn't necessarily a problem. My dad, for example, can find most things he wants on the app store for his iPad, but can't manage to find anything to download to his laptop. The two serve different purposes and different use cases. There are advantages to both methods. 

 

Oh, and x86 isn't important if most applications are ported over to ARM, which is clearly the intention with the iPad Pro. 

 

 

30$ dude.. Surface Pro 1 and 2, which both used Wacom technology was 30$, and that is the price from most manufactures using Wacom pens, at most 50$.

The 100$ pen you are looking at, are the fancy ones, with different tips for different feel and improved tracking, and works for select Wacom digitzers.

My point is there is no shortage of $100~ styluses. 

Also, we don't know much about the Pencil either. 

[GoodBytes]

While W8.1/10 were designed for touch, OSX still has a superior touch interface as it's a true touch OS whereas 8.1/10 are hybrid touch/not.

Yes. but, you don't have have a cursor when you are doing productivity work on the iPad when you dock it to the keyboard. And don't say 'superior touch screen, no issue', that is not true. The iPad had an official keyboard before (dock), and they are third party bluetooth keyboards. And I have tried such setup, and iOS is a pain. You need to use touch, but you don't have the precision to position text insertion point exactly where you want.

Yes, the stylus offers another means of interfacing with the device, but it can also be more than just that. It can have added functionality -- whether or not that Apple stylus has that I do not know.

Microsoft uses the best technology available for pen on screen digitizer for mobile device (low powered).

The Surface line that has the pen is only praised by people as being the best available option from any other manufactures. (this is not some kind of fan boy'ish claim, this is really because, as mentioned, Microsoft is not skimming and getting the best they can get, and of course the device has this premium price attached to it, as the hardware costs more).

It would be interesting to see what Apple pen works. So far, no one used the pen, not even the media, as it was not on the show.

They did show multi-touch with pen at the same time, so we have to see if it has palm rejections, because seeing all the promo videos from Apple, no palms touched the screen, so I don't think there is one, and that is a huge problem. Try writhing a lot without touching your paper... not that easy or comfortable.

Being locked to the app store isn't necessarily a problem. My dad, for example, can find most things he wants on the app store for his iPad, but can't manage to find anything to download to his laptop. The two serve different purposes and different use cases. There are advantages to both methods.

In both cases, you search, you have.

Oh, and x86 isn't important if most applications are ported over to ARM, which is clearly the intention with the iPad Pro.

They are not ported. The only thing 'ported' is the name. PhotoShop on iPad is like MS Paint compared to PhotoShop on desktop.

My point is there is no shortage of $100~ styluses.

How does that make sense? The pen is 30$. They are plenty of them.

[79wjd]

Yes. but, you don't have have a cursor when you are doing productivity work on the iPad when you dock it to the keyboard. And don't say 'superior touch screen, no issue', that is not true. The iPad had an official keyboard before (dock), and they are third party bluetooth keyboards. And I have tried such setup, and iOS is a pain. You need to use touch, but you don't have the precision to position text insertion point exactly where you want.

It would be interesting to see what Apple pen works. So far, no one used the pen, not even the media, as it was not on the show.

They did show multi-touch with pen at the same time, so we have to see if it has palm rejections, because seeing all the promo videos from Apple, no palms touched the screen, so I don't think there is one, and that is a huge problem. Try writhing a lot without touching your paper... not that easy or comfortable.

In both cases, you search, you have.

They are not ported. The only thing 'ported' is the name. PhotoShop on iPad is like MS Paint compared to PhotoShop on desktop.

How does that make sense? The pen is 30$. They are plenty of them.

Like I said, both devices have pros and cons, and navigating through text to get to a specific point is a pain in the ass in iOS. 

 

Again, it's worth waiting for it to be released before jumping to conclusions or making judgements either way. 

 

Yes, in both cases you still have to search, however it's much easier to find a program in the app store than it is to find it online as you don't have to take into consideration compatibility, or finding the program in the first place (the app store is more idiot friendly than google). 

 

You know what I meant. And it's evident that the intention is for developers to make iOS apps more and more feature rich to become competitive with many desktop counterparts. 

 

People have been willing to spend money on styluses for years now, thus, Apple charging $100 isn't that outrageous if it offers a user experience comparable to the ones that people are already willing to pay for. 

[Dabombinable]

Yes. but, you don't have have a cursor when you are doing productivity work on the iPad when you dock it to the keyboard. And don't say 'superior touch screen, no issue', that is not true. The iPad had an official keyboard before (dock), and they are third party bluetooth keyboards. And I have tried such setup, and iOS is a pain. You need to use touch, but you don't have the precision to position text insertion point exactly where you want.

Microsoft uses the best technology available for pen on screen digitizer for mobile device (low powered).

The Surface line that has the pen is only praised by people as being the best available option from any other manufactures. (this is not some kind of fan boy'ish claim, this is really because, as mentioned, Microsoft is not skimming and getting the best they can get, and of course the device has this premium price attached to it, as the hardware costs more).

It would be interesting to see what Apple pen works. So far, no one used the pen, not even the media, as it was not on the show.

They did show multi-touch with pen at the same time, so we have to see if it has palm rejections, because seeing all the promo videos from Apple, no palms touched the screen, so I don't think there is one, and that is a huge problem. Try writhing a lot without touching your paper... not that easy or comfortable.

In both cases, you search, you have.

They are not ported. The only thing 'ported' is the name. PhotoShop on iPad is like MS Paint compared to PhotoShop on desktop.

How does that make sense? The pen is 30$. They are plenty of them.

Another thing with the Surface 3/Pro 3 is that its at the stage that despite its relatively low I/O, its more powerful than early touchscreen laptops such as the HP Touchsmart TM2 (the version I am referring to has a first gen dual core i5 at 1.33GHz) while having significantly battery life, a far more advanced touchscreen and running cooler. With the Surface you get exactly what your paying for, with something such as the iPad Pro your actually paying a lot for the brand iteself-similar to Alienware desktops.

[Dabombinable]

Like I said, both devices have pros and cons, and navigating through text to get to a specific point is a pain in the ass in iOS. 

 

Again, it's worth waiting for it to be released before jumping to conclusions or making judgements either way. 

 

Yes, in both cases you still have to search, however it's much easier to find a program in the app store than it is to find it online as you don't have to take into consideration compatibility, or finding the program in the first place (the app store is more idiot friendly than google). 

 

You know what I meant. And it's evident that the intention is for developers to make iOS apps more and more feature rich to become competitive with many desktop counterparts. 

 

People have been willing to spend money on styluses for years now, thus, Apple charging $100 isn't that outrageous if it offers a user experience comparable to the ones that people are already willing to pay for. 

Ok.....you are just grasping at straws. Everything your talking about is done better on the Surface-even just by going off the current iPads.

 

Edit: And considering how gradual Apple changes their hardware to ensure that every new device is an upgrade over the old one-even if they have to hold back something such as a camera, its not that difficult to project the experience users will get with the iPad Pro. (On another note, I saw the 2015 Macbook Air alongside the 2015 Macbook today. The Macbook looks like a toy next to the Air its that small-its smaller than a Asus Transformer Prime-which has far more functionality even though its a relatively old Android tablet and one of the earlier convertibles).

[Kamina]

>Abstracted file system -- i.e. the individual doesn't have to worry about it, the device/applications manage it for you. 

>Continuity -- the ability to resume work on a between iOS/OSX devices 

>A superior touch optimized OS 

>An easy to use (and large) app store -- you don't have to go search for the correct version of the correct program for your device

>Higher resolution screen (not that that really matters) 

>Possibly better stylus integration, I haven't used a Surface, but if it's just running windows, then I'm not sure how the stylus is actually integrated (or how it's integrated into the iPad Pro for that matter) 

>Other -- I'm sure I've missed some of the pros to the iPad Pro 

 

So to say the iPad Pro is an all around worse device is being shortsighted. There are advantages to both and both are aimed at similar, but slightly different audiences. 

 

Vs. some Wacom styluses which are also around $100. 

[LAwLz]

There's no advantage to having >750p resolution on a 4.7" phone.

Didn't want to jump into the discussion but when you start posting bullshit like that I have to.

The iPhone has a 326 PPI screen. Humans can see way more than that.

There are advantages to having a higher than 750p screen on a 4.7" phone.

Stop posting misinformation to defend Apple.

 

Ever since the iPhone 4 was announced there has been a lot of talk about "how many PPI the human eye can see" and if the iPhone 4 really had a retina display. Today I thought I'd clear up some confusion.

Is the 326 PPI the iPhone 4 and above enough to be classified as a "retina" display?

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: For the average person at a normal distance it is. For a lot of people, and in a lot of situations it is not enough though. At the bottom of this page I have made a graph showing exactly what PPI you need to not see individual pixels depending on your eye sight and distance.

Before I show you the graph I am going to explain why it looks the way it does, what everything means and how I calculated it.

The first thing we have to understand is how to measure eye sight. To measure this we use something called an "arc minute".

The reason we don't use for example millimeter is because that does not take distance into consideration. 60 arc minutes is the same as 1 degree. If you can see 60 arc minutes, then it means that you can separate two dots that are 1 degree from each other (imagine a triangle coming out from your eye, and then measure the degree of difference between two dots to figure out how many degrees they differ, pic related):

(image source: wolfcrow)

OK so now that we know what an arc minute is, let's calculate how good our human eyes are.

A human with 20/20 vision can see down to 1 arc minute of difference. So if something is 1/60 of a degree away from each other, you can see them as two separate dots. Please bear in mind that 20/20 is considered normal vision. 20/20 means that you can see what a normal person see at 20 feet away. The first number is the distance the person needs to see something, and the second number is what a normal person needs. So if someone has 20/12 vision, they can see something at 20 feet away a normal person needs 12 feet to see. The reason I mentioned 20/12 is because that is actually not too rare to have. Some of the best recorded eye sights have been 20/8 which is just insane (a hawk has 20/2 for those of you who are interested).

So here is what some different eye sights can see:

20/20 - 1 arc minute

20/12 - 0.6 arc minute

20/8 - 0.4 arc minute

Most people with good eyes have between 20/12 and 20/20.

Your average adult can focus at as close as 4 inches away (100 millimeter). Younger people can focus at things closer than that but let's do our calculations on your average adult to keep things fair and simple.

Here is the formula for calculating the perceived size of an object: p = 2 * d * tan (α/2) where p is the size, d is the distance in millimeters and α is the angle in degrees. (here is an online calculator, you want to use "linear size from angular size and distance)

Here are the pixel sizes assuming you look 100 millimeters away.

1 arc minute = 0.029 millimeters

0.6 arc minute = 0.0175 microns

0.4 arc minute = 0.0116 microns

All that is left now is to calculate the PPI if each pixel is a specific size. (I couldn't find a pixel pitch to PPI calculator so I had to use this site and change the resolution until I found the correct dot pitch and check what the PPI corresponded to)

1 arc minute - 874 PPI

0.6 arc minute - 1447 PPI

0.4 arc minute - 2181 PPI

Please note that I have done some rounding up/down on certain numbers so that I didn't have to use like 20 decimal points.

TLDR: Your average adult with normal vision can see up to 874 PPI. Some people with really really good eye sight (not super human, just really really REALLY good) can see over 2000 PPI. Don't underestimate the human eye. That's from 4 inches away though, and that's not really a normal viewing distance.

Here is the graph. Please note that I have done quite a bit of rounding up and down so your results may vary.

You should be able to use this as a rough estimation though. As we can see, someone with 20/20 vision can only see 291 PPI at 30 centimeters away, which is a typical viewing distance. That means that the iPhone's screen really is better than our retina, if you got average vision and hold it ~30 centimeter away from your eyes. If you hold it closer and/or have better than average vision then you should be able to see the individual pixels in the best possible conditions.

All of the above info is without taking vernier acuity (see if two lines are not aligned) into the equation. I used 1 arc minute as the resolution for 20/20 vision, but if we are talking about vernier acuity we are down in arc seconds territory. I don't have any good measurements for how sensitive your average person is to that, but I have heard of people with below 10 arc seconds of sensitivity.

This is without taking VR into consideration as well. With VR headsets you got lenses which allows you to focus even closer than 10cm.

The diminishing return becomes greater and greater, but increasing resolution will still have a visible benefit up until several thousands of PPI. It is not completely useless until we match the resolution of our eyes and even with this we are quite far away.

But like I said before, I think we should wait for battery tech and GPU tech to improve more before we go beyond 2560x1440 in phones. That's what I have been saying ever since 1440p phones started appearing on the market.

 

[LAwLz]

Of course the iPad Pro is aimed at a very similar target audience.....it's a 13" power-user tablet. That's just begging for an interface other than just a touch screen.

The iPad Pro is not a "power-user tablet" since it does not run any "power-user" programs. It has cut down versions of some programs but if you are a power user why settle for "Photoshop Light" when you can get the real Photoshop for a lower price?

 

It's a 13" Apple-fanboy tablet.

[Sauron]

Faster than 80% of laptops? YOU WOT M8? That's so much bullshit it's not even funny - especially if you compare it to laptops of the same price.

 

And yeah, that piece of plastic is clearly worth 99$ when dished out 800$ for your novelty item. And the keyboard... that's also clearly worth 170$ when it does nothing more than any random bluetooth keyboard you can buy for 20 bucks.

 

How would anyone even consider this? Isn't the ripoff obvious? I didn't consider the surface pro to be a great bargain, but compared to THIS it's utterly amazing. I also wonder how they expect anyone to do any serious work on ios. And it's not like you can run windows or linux on it since it's arm based and locked down to the core (linux could technically work but you'd need to be able to install it - which apple won't let you, since you clearly haven't paid enough money to have the permission of using your device as you like).

[Sauron]

Another thing with the Surface 3/Pro 3 is that its at the stage that despite its relatively low I/O, its more powerful than early touchscreen laptops such as the HP Touchsmart TM2 (the version I am referring to has a first gen dual core i5 at 1.33GHz) while having significantly battery life, a far more advanced touchscreen and running cooler. With the Surface you get exactly what your paying for, with something such as the iPad Pro your actually paying a lot for the brand iteself-similar to Alienware desktops.

 

Besides it still has WAY more I/O than an ipad. Or a 1300$ macbook but shhhh

[Dabombinable]

Besides it still has WAY more I/O than an ipad. Or a 1300$ macbook but shhhh

I saw the Macbook today. Its only a toy compared to the Air or actual tablets.

[Sauron]

I saw the Macbook today. Its only a toy compared to the Air or actual tablets.

 

or anything really. hell, the raspberry pi is more serviceable than that - and it has a lot more ports.

[Dabombinable]

or anything really. hell, the raspberry pi is more serviceable than that - and it has a lot more ports.

Which is quite funny

[79wjd]

Didn't want to jump into the discussion but when you start posting bullshit like that I have to.

The iPhone has a 326 PPI screen. Humans can see way more than that.

There are advantages to having a higher than 750p screen on a 4.7" phone.

Stop posting misinformation to defend Apple.

 

You should be able to use this as a rough estimation though. As we can see, someone with 20/20 vision can only see 291 PPI at 30 centimeters away, which is a typical viewing distance. That means that the iPhone's screen really is better than our retina, if you got average vision and hold it ~30 centimeter away from your eyes. If you hold it closer and/or have better than average vision then you should be able to see the individual pixels in the best possible conditions.

 

Right, so, yes technically humans can see more, but at any reasonable distance the pixel density isn't going to make much of a difference. Even with the phone right up against your face it won't make much of a difference. 

 

The iPad Pro is not a "power-user tablet" since it does not run any "power-user" programs. It has cut down versions of some programs but if you are a power user why settle for "Photoshop Light" when you can get the real Photoshop for a lower price?

 

It's a 13" Apple-fanboy tablet.

For now the programs are still cut down versions, the future might very well hold different results considering the CPU power of the A9x. And again, there are advantages to it over the competition. Just because it isn't the right decision for you, doesn't mean it's not the right decision for anyone else. 

[Dabombinable]

Right, so, yes technically humans can see more, but at any reasonable distance the pixel density isn't going to make much of a difference. Even with the phone right up against your face it won't make much of a difference. 

 

For now the programs are still cut down versions, the future might very well hold different results considering the CPU power of the A9x. And again, there are advantages to it over the competition. Just because it isn't the right decision for you, doesn't mean it's not the right decision for anyone else. 

Lol, advantages? All of the 'advantages' were debunked in a previous post.

[79wjd]

Ok.....you are just grasping at straws. Everything your talking about is done better on the Surface-even just by going off the current iPads.

 

Edit: And considering how gradual Apple changes their hardware to ensure that every new device is an upgrade over the old one-even if they have to hold back something such as a camera, its not that difficult to project the experience users will get with the iPad Pro. (On another note, I saw the 2015 Macbook Air alongside the 2015 Macbook today. The Macbook looks like a toy next to the Air its that small-its smaller than a Asus Transformer Prime-which has far more functionality even though its a relatively old Android tablet and one of the earlier convertibles).

 

Lol, advantages? All of the 'advantages' were debunked in a previous post.

No, you just shrugged it off by saying it's all better on a surface. Which physically can't be the case due to some of those pluses not truly being applicable to a windows-like OS. 

 

As for your edit, yes, it's safe to say the user experience will probably be pretty good (not necessarily the best price/performance) -- like most Apple products; I'm glad we agree. 

[Dabombinable]

No, you just shrugged it off by saying it's all better on a surface. Which physically can't be the case due to some of those pluses not truly being applicable to a windows-like OS. 

 

As for your edit, yes, it's safe to say the user experience will probably be pretty good (not necessarily the best price/performance) -- like most Apple products; I'm glad we agree. 

Note: Pretty good for an Apple product. Also, I never shrugged it off-I pointed out where you are wrong-which apart from the screen resolution was all points.

[79wjd]

Continuity: The Surface 3/3 Pro can run programs dating back to Windows 95

Superior touch optimised OS: Windows 8.1/10 are optimised for touchscreens and can install any program.

Higher Resolution screen: As you said that doesn't really matter, higher resolutions are better suited to larger screens.

Stylus: The stylus quite simply allows you to use it in place of your fingers-preventing dirty screens

Other: You really haven't listed that many at all, and they actually translate straight to the Surface

Also, the Surface isn't locked to the App store, it can fit a full sized USB and you can easily move any files to and from it without OSX and iTunes. Oh and its still x86.

Note: Pretty good for an Apple product. Also, I never shrugged it off-I pointed out where you are wrong-which apart from the screen resolution was all points.

And then I countered all of them. 

 

 

That's not what continuity is. Continuity is being able to seamlessly transition between the same task on different devices. Plus maintaining the same/similar environment for users allowing for a more consistent and uniform user experience. 

 

While W8.1/10 were designed for touch, [iOS] still has a superior touch interface as it's a true touch OS whereas 8.1/10 are hybrid touch.

 

Yes, the stylus offers another means of interfacing with the device, but it can also be more than just that. It can have added functionality -- whether or not that Apple stylus has that I do not know. 

 

Go find someone who has actually used an iPad and a Surface and I'm sure they can come up with a bunch more, I just don't use tablets all too often as I find them useless in general (although, you don't see me shitting on them, because I can grasp the concept that just because something doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to someone else).

 

Being locked to the app store isn't necessarily a problem. My dad, for example, can find most things he wants on the app store for his iPad, but can't manage to find anything to download to his laptop. The two serve different purposes and different use cases. There are advantages to both methods. 

 

Oh, and x86 isn't important if most applications are moved over to ARM, which is clearly the intention with the iPad Pro. 

[LAwLz]

Right, so, yes technically humans can see more, but at any reasonable distance the pixel density isn't going to make much of a difference. Even with the phone right up against your face it won't make much of a difference. 

For some things it makes a big difference.

Ever tried reading Japanese or other logographic systems? The higher PPI the better for that, especially if the text is on the small side.

 

 

 

For now the programs are still cut down versions, the future might very well hold different results considering the CPU power of the A9x. And again, there are advantages to it over the competition. Just because it isn't the right decision for you, doesn't mean it's not the right decision for anyone else. 

That just means it could potentially be decent in the future. It doesn't change the fact that it is a terrible device today.

And what advantages? What advantages does it have? Sorry if you have answered that before but I have skipped like half the replies in this thread.

I can't think of any.

[Dabombinable]

And then I countered all of them. 

Again, your grasping at straws.

Rebutal:

 

Yes. but, you don't have have a cursor when you are doing productivity work on the iPad when you dock it to the keyboard. And don't say 'superior touch screen, no issue', that is not true. The iPad had an official keyboard before (dock), and they are third party bluetooth keyboards. And I have tried such setup, and iOS is a pain. You need to use touch, but you don't have the precision to position text insertion point exactly where you want.

Microsoft uses the best technology available for pen on screen digitizer for mobile device (low powered).

The Surface line that has the pen is only praised by people as being the best available option from any other manufactures. (this is not some kind of fan boy'ish claim, this is really because, as mentioned, Microsoft is not skimming and getting the best they can get, and of course the device has this premium price attached to it, as the hardware costs more).

It would be interesting to see what Apple pen works. So far, no one used the pen, not even the media, as it was not on the show.

They did show multi-touch with pen at the same time, so we have to see if it has palm rejections, because seeing all the promo videos from Apple, no palms touched the screen, so I don't think there is one, and that is a huge problem. Try writhing a lot without touching your paper... not that easy or comfortable.

In both cases, you search, you have.

They are not ported. The only thing 'ported' is the name. PhotoShop on iPad is like MS Paint compared to PhotoShop on desktop.

How does that make sense? The pen is 30$. They are plenty of them.

[The Benjamins]

That's not what continuity is. 

 

While W8.1/10 were designed for touch, OSX still has a superior touch interface as it's a true touch OS whereas 8.1/10 are hybrid touch/not.

 

Yes, the stylus offers another means of interfacing with the device, but it can also be more than just that. It can have added functionality -- whether or not that Apple stylus has that I do not know. 

 

Go find someone who has actually used an iPad and a Surface and I'm sure they can come up with a bunch more, I just don't use tablets all too often as I find them useless in general (although, you don't see me shitting on them, because I can grasp the concept that just because something doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to someone else).

 

Being locked to the app store isn't necessarily a problem. My dad, for example, can find most things he wants on the app store for his iPad, but can't manage to find anything to download to his laptop. The two serve different purposes and different use cases. There are advantages to both methods. 

 

Oh, and x86 isn't important if most applications are ported over to ARM, which is clearly the intention with the iPad Pro. 

 

 

My point is there is no shortage of $100~ styluses. 

Also, we don't know much about the Pencil either. 

 

OSX dose not support touch at all, as far as I know, it is iOS that does.

[Emanuel_M]

Nope, don't have the money to get one

 

 

EDIT: 1 THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR A FUCKING TABLET??

also, who needs 4gb on a IOS device, unless you have tabs full of porn.

[LAwLz]

also, who needs 4gb on a IOS device, unless you have tabs full of porn.

That is actually why I wanted an upgrade from my Nexus 10 with 2GB of RAM... Not joking.

Stupid Chrome kept deleting the cached tabs so I had to reload them.

[Emanuel_M]

That is actually why I wanted an upgrade from my Nexus 10 with 2GB of RAM... Not joking.

Stupid Chrome kept deleting the cached tabs so I had to reload them.

hahaha, so you want to hear multiple moaning, and grunts, and the 100+ tabs you have?

[LAwLz]

hahaha, so you want to hear multiple moaning, and grunts, and the 100+ tabs you have?

Not a fan of porn videos. I prefer it in comic form.