The Battle - Mac vs. PC - A Challenge

[mr moose]

You usually make well written and informed posts, but the few in this thread - sorry. Some of the refutations in this thread are insufferable.

I get frustrated with the whole apple/other debate.  I can't accept personal opinions written as if they are fact.  The evidence (market share, leading product design, etc) is just not there to support the case that apple have had any effect on the PC design or implementation. Certainly no more than Dell or Acer or Asus. The same goes for the Iphone.  Show me some evidence that makes Apple a leading laptop manufacturer, or more to the point that shows other companies would not have developed the same without apple?

 

If someone likes an apple product and prefers it over any other brand then that is fine, if they are willing to pay the premium that sometimes comes with said products then that is their choice. I have no problem with apple products as such, they are what they are. I wouldn't pay more when there is a comparable product that is cheaper.  You'll note I have said they are poor products, just not always the best choice for me.

[MrSuperb]

Of course they would, android was first coded in 2003, HTC was making smartphones with win mobile before the iphone, Palm and HP had smartphones on the market in 2001 and 2004 respectively.  The only thing apple did was take what already existed and make it a fashionable. 

 

Android in 2003 was TOTALY different from what Android was when the first Android phone came to the market and where Android is today. It was more a copy of Blackberry with no real intend to use your fingers as an 'input device'

[mr moose]

Android in 2003 was TOTALY different from what Android was when the first Android phone came to the market and where Android is today. It was more a copy of Blackberry with no real intend to use your fingers as an 'input device'

exactly my point except the blackberry thing that's not quite accurate, it was started then and has been developed ever since along with blackberry, win mobile (aka win ce, pocket pc), apple didn't release ios until 2007. To  argue that apple has been a leading developer in the mobile market is a fallacy, You can hardly insinuate that a company which comes along 4 years later with their own version of what already exists as leaders in their field.

[Lukiose]

1) They don't. Not if you compare them to notebooks that could be seen as somewaht comparable.

2) That is not really subjective as it has been measured and proven by various sites (most of them have a general focus on laptops/PCs, not macs)

3) Also not true. They have better battery life with equal hardware. A big part on this is though, that OS X has a far superior power management.

4) Power users? Are you even serious? Are all those who consider a Laptop not a simple replacement for a desktop pc, but a worktool who carry around their laptops with them al day not Power-users?

5) Again, why would a 'power user' not use the Trackpad? By 'power user' you obviously mean 'Gamers', right?

6) the only true thing you said.

You're roundhouse-kicking yourself in the head with your poor arguments. It is already known for a fact that the Macbook has poor hardware for it's price, if you're going for purely performance which is the variable here, many laptops contain far greater hardware for a similar pricepoint. [Comparable? Has your science teacher ever told you that to compare a set of values there must be a fixed variable so your 'excellent screen/build quality' is not of consideration.]

They have better battery life only because of the software? Invalid argument, we're talking hardware not software here, if you love the software so much just make a hackintosh like you yourself stated oh-so-many times.

If you're doing anything serious with a laptop, graphical editing/coding/whatever workstation job without a mouse then you're obviously not doing said job. And yes, 95% of the people i know who own a Macbook are NOT power users, they simply use and carry a Macbook around for day to day casual usage/web browsing/media. It is indeed a simple replacement for a desktop pc for them. That said, i know of no gamers that own and willingly use a Macbook for their intended purpose.

[MrSuperb]

exactly my point except the blackberry thing that's not quite accurate, it was started then and has been developed ever since along with blackberry, win mobile (aka win ce, pocket pc), apple didn't release ios until 2007. To  argue that apple has been a leading developer in the mobile market is a fallacy, You can hardly insinuate that a company which comes along 4 years later with their own version of what already exists as leaders in their field.

 

Well go some time back and look were palm got their ideas for PalmOS ;)

1996 Release of Palm OS 1.0

1993 Release of Apple Newton

 

-----

 

Android wouldn't be the way it is today, if it weren't for iOS.

iOS wouldn't be the way it is today, if it weren't for Android.

[mr moose]

 

 

Android wouldn't be the way it is today, if it weren't for iOS.

iOS wouldn't be the way it is today, if it weren't for Android.

 

This is fairly accurate.  But previous commenters have not said this, they have only said "Android wouldn't be the way it is today, if it weren't for iOS.". Which is what I am debating.

And similar lines for other apple products. 

 

For the record I have never said apple are crap, They are just not the big inventors everyone seems to make them out to be.

[MrSuperb]

You're roundhouse-kicking yourself in the head with your poor arguments. It is already known for a fact that the Macbook has poor hardware for it's price, if you're going for purely performance which is the variable here, many laptops contain far greater hardware for a similar pricepoint. [Comparable? Has your science teacher ever told you that to compare a set of values there must be a fixed variable so your 'excellent screen/build quality' is not of consideration.]

 

If by Hardware you ONLY mean the calculation performance / price, than you are right. But Laptops aren't just portable CPUs+GPUs. If you compare similar Laptops consisting of similiar CPU,GPU,displays,storage,build quality, battery, etc. Macs aren't more expensive than other laptops. This is the whole point of this thread which you try do ignore completly. Show me a comparable Laptop at a smaller price point!

[NinjaStyle013]

Apple provides products that look good and have the type of performance you'll need for working.

Macs don't like gaming too much, don't complain that games aren't great on mac.

They exist to be nice looking workstations. A lot of pcs will have better performance for cheaper but with a mac you get a nice all in one case with a good screen included. The OS is easy for people to use also.

I used to be anti mac but they offer good compenents for competitive pricing along with usual Apple quality.

[Lukiose]

If by Hardware you ONLY mean the calculation performance / price, than you are right. But Laptops aren't just portable CPUs+GPUs. If you compare similar Laptops consisting of similiar CPU,GPU,displays,storage,build quality, battery, etc. Macs aren't more expensive than other laptops. This is the whole point of this thread which you try do ignore completly. Show me a comparable Laptop at a smaller price point!

You obviously don't know how to read the 6 points i stated as a whole rather than individually.

[MrSuperb]

You obviously don't know how to read the 6 points i stated as a whole rather than individually.

 

Oh I did, but you compeltly ignore my statments. I bet you would also rather buy a Ford Mustang with a Mercedes engine and drive train, than an actual Mercedes.

 

But I will say it again for you. A laptop, that is somewhat comparalbe not only performance wise (as in number fo calculations per minute) but rather also hardware wise, will not be cheaper than any Macbook. You think otherwise? Proof it!

[Lukiose]

Oh I did, but you compeltly ignore my statments. I bet you would also rather buy a Ford Mustang with a Mercedes engine and drive train, than an actual Mercedes.

 

But I will say it again for you. A laptop, that is somewhat comparalbe not only performance wise (as in number fo calculations per minute) but rather also hardware wise, will not be cheaper than any Macbook. You think otherwise? Proof it!

I don't think you understand, someone host an English language lesson for MrSuperb please.

For the sake of clarity for people not so well versed in English, the general gist of what i stated was that a Macbook is a poor choice for power users going for solid performance value wise, it is however not a bad purchase for more casual users who feel that the 'excellent screen, trackpad and keyboard, and -400 grams' is worth the premium, which may not be the case for users that regularly use a mouse/keyboard in conjuncture with a laptop.

*Proof Prove it

 

Not going to further continue this debate for the sake of self-sanity, thanks everyone for the good information i picked up in the past 24 hours which helped soften my stand on this particular subject. Although to be honest i'm disappointed as a long time member of the forum to see that our 'maintain a mature and polite attitude towards other users at all times' is getting lax...

[Kilerbomb]

Did you really make this thread?

^

[MrSuperb]

I don't think you understand, someone host an English language lesson for MrSuperb please.

For the sake of clarity for people not so well versed in English, the general gist of what i stated was that a Macbook is a poor choice for power users going for solid performance value wise, ...

Although to be honest i'm disappointed as a long time member of the forum to see that our 'maintain a mature and polite attitude towards other users at all times' is getting lax...

 

So because you are out of argument, you are going to be offensive now?

How do you define 'power user'? By how many images they can render in an hour?

[heineygoat]

When will people start to realize that this entire idea of PC vs Mac is just dumb. You can't decided whats better and just have a blanket statement to suit everyone. Maybe I could get more performance for the price on a Mac instead of my PC, but I'm a gamer, I want that compatibility and OS support.

 

OP your challenge is price/performance, well my challenge is to find a Mac that has support for more programs and games than a PC. < do you see how stupid that is?

 

To say that there is one clear winner of the two for every possible user is just retarded. Stop.

[MrSuperb]

OP your challenge is price/performance, well my challenge is to find a Mac that has support for more programs and games than a PC. < do you see how stupid that is?

 

To say that there is one clear winner of the two for every possible user is just retarded. Stop.

You clearly didn't read the opening post ...

I never said there is a clear winner either :huh:

[Cryptonite]

So because you are out of argument, you are going to be offensive now?

How do you define 'power user'? By how many images they can render in an hour?

actually he meant you are being that way, I totally agree with Lukiose though and I find this to be nothing but a flame starter. if you can not comprehend what a power user is you do not deserve to demand anything. I myself am a power user and would if I had to go more mobile would need to get a high performing laptop which mac would definitely not be an option of since I also game quite often. his point is clear and you are basically doing what you accused him of doing, not looking at the conversation and just begging to defend your stand point.

Like I said I do not disagree with you that mac might have benefits to some, but to me it would be an expensive waste and you trying to get someone to give you a comparison to mac in the form of a laptop is basically the same thing the government and most Marketing companies do as well.

[crystal6tak]

To be honest I don't think there's a windows laptop that's equivalent to a macbook. This is simply because the customers macbook targets is not the same as the customers windows laptop target. Most macbook are low to mid end laptop with a superb build quality. This type of laptop just simply do not exist in the windows laptop world. Low-mid end windows laptop with high quality chassis just doesn't make sense and would not exist. Windows laptop generally would only start having high quality chassis at the high end laptop level. However at the high end level the hardware spits out tons of heat forcing the manufacturer to build thick coolers for them in turn making the laptop thick, heavy and bulky. I'm not saying macbooks are bad, they are good and a superb choice for the specific customers they target which are the people who want sleek and great build quality laptops and doesn't really care about performance. While windows laptop target people who wants the best hardware they can get with the money they can spend and don't really care about build quality. 

 

Oh and please don't say there isn't equivalent windows laptop to macbook air. They are called ultrabooks and there are a lot of them. A quick newegg search brought me this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230671 which seems to directly compete with the 13 inch $1099 macbook air.

[mr moose]

Well, there is actually a poll at the top of this thread. It is quite clear what tech enthusiast think. After all most of us were drawn to this forum by our love of computers and I don't think you can write off 92% to fan boyism.  The second question shows us that at least 30% have given the question due thought and were honest with their appraisal.  

 

Most of us aren't die hard fans of only one company, if a product comes out fast, better, cooler, cheaper, whatever, Then most of us will buy it, If we don't then there is a good chance it is not faster, cheaper, better or cooler on the whole.  Most of us don't hate apple products because their apple, we hate them because they don't suit our needs and are more expensive.  It really is that simple. 

 

Although as a company I don't like them, They are stifling innovation buy tying up companies in legal action over silly patents they aren't even entitled to own. 

[MrSuperb]

actually he meant you are being that way, I totally agree with Lukiose though and I find this to be nothing but a flame starter. if you can not comprehend what a power user is you do not deserve to demand anything.

I am very well aware what a power user is and what not. Me offensive? I asked people to show me a comparable windows pc which is cheaper than those macs. (There most definetly are comparable windows pcs) But until now I just good cheap 'explanations' why mac are a 'waste of money'

 

I myself am a power user and would if I had to go more mobile would need to get a high performing laptop which mac would definitely not be an option of since I also game quite often.

Apple offers everything from a low power dual core to one of the highest performing mobile quad-cores. Only in the graphics departement they don't offer anything better than the 650m.

 

 

his point is clear and you are basically doing what you accused him of doing, not looking at the conversation and just begging to defend your stand point.

  no, his point isn't clear at all. He says, that price/performance wise Windows notebooks are superior. But if it is only about price/performance why not just get a desktop?

 

you trying to get someone to give you a comparison to mac in the form of a laptop is basically the same thing the government and most Marketing companies do as well.

I disagree.

[mr moose]

And just because I love to stir:

 

Here we see the worlds best scientist controlling the worlds most advanced scientific tool (the LHC at CERN) with XP based machines.  And next to that we have hipsters update their instagram and facebook with macs.

 

 

 

:P

[MrSuperb]

Although as a company I don't like them, They are stifling innovation buy tying up companies in legal action over silly patents they aren't even entitled to own. 

 

To be fair nearly every company in the US does that. There are more than enough patent trolls in the US whos only business is to sue companies. That's maily due to the broken US Patent System.

[MrSuperb]

And just because I love to stir:

 

Here we see the worlds best scientist controlling the worlds most advanced scientific tool (the LHC at CERN) with XP based machines.  And next to that we have hipsters update their instagram and facebook with macs.

CERN?

 

 

[Cryptonite]

I am very well aware what a power user is and what not. Me offensive? I asked people to show me a comparable windows pc which is cheaper than those macs. (There most definetly are comparable windows pcs) But until now I just good cheap 'explanations' why mac are a 'waste of money'

If you can't find your tone a little on the arrogant to aggravated side I don't blame you since I know a lot of people into tech have horrible people skills myself being one of them

 

Apple offers everything from a low power dual core to one of the highest performing mobile quad-cores. Only in the graphics departement they don't offer anything better than the 650m.

Yes they do offer high performing computers but again you took what was said out of context as I said that I game quite often and I was also referring to mac OS in that department* I'm also a cheapskate forcing the best performance at the lowest cost possible.

 

  no, his point isn't clear at all. He says, that price/performance wise Windows notebooks are superior. But if it is only about price/performance why not just get a desktop?

so you're twisting things around saying that technically he is correct about that at price / performance mac stands no chance, but if that's the case why don't people just go for desktop computing? I for a fact know at least 3 people who got high performing laptops because they require it for what they study (Engineering / software development which kinda uses linux as non of us mentioned windows in particular but having both windows and linux isn't hard either) and in turn don't want to use a second machine for home entertainment / gaming.

 

I disagree.

You would, The government also thrashes whoever opposes them in whatever country, they give all their good qualities, ignoring their bad and ask the public to compare other political parties to only those good standards, Marketing companies do the same thing, saying they do the best at whatever they advertise yet they do not give you all the details, the pros and the cons or anything that might make a client not buy their product.

 

your entire post is useless since people know that those who want to have a mac will buy a mac, but those not interested in the mediocre (to me) extra features will go the cheaper route and get a cheaper high performance laptop.

[Cryptonite]

CERN?

 

 

that's a university ( the second pic) and you get this thing called sponsors, ya know

also I love how they are on facebook.

[Sgt]

This thread again...