EVGA puts an end to the silicon lottery for the first time ever with the GTX 980 Ti K|NGP|N

[Curufinwe_wins]

You say what's the point but there's plenty of other "what's the point?" questions, what's the point in spending hundreds more for a card that might overclock better? What's the point in buying anything other than reference if 90% of the cards out there are topping out at around the same area? What's the point in buying a K|NGP|N card when a classified is going to perform just as well for less money? What's the point in buying a card that's been binned to allow me to push it maybe 10-20MHz higher?

It hasn't hurt anyone any more than binning has. High end cards have always had the better chips, yes EVGA has more versions of their high end cards, it doesn't change anything, even if they weren't doing this they'd still hold those chips back for their classified cards anyway.

MSI doesn't have any binned cards for the 900 series yet because they didn't want a repeat of the 700 series (780 lightning drops then the Ti drops), we'll see one in the next few months.

I don't think you got the point I was making. Due to a lack/reduction of binning on average literally every single other company at the entry level sells better gpus than evga. I know evga can get away with it because... Evga... But it's still important for consumers to know how idiotic this is for their bottom line.

[Cl2G]

$1,050 for 80% ASIC quality? Has ASIC quality even proven to actually matter?

with maxwell, yes.

 

get informed yourself before questioned fact. 

[Lays]

with maxwell, yes.

 

get informed yourself before questioned fact. 

 

 

It's not a be-all-end-all though. For some reason people think if you get low ASIC you're guaranteed a shitty OC

[Tomms2290]

 

-snip-

So it´s like a free2play, but pay2win game but with hardware? Oh my goodness

[Cl2G]

It's not a be-all-end-all though. For some reason people think if you get low ASIC you're guaranteed a shitty OC

once again learn what you are talking about,

 

specifically concerning maxwell's architectures behavior. 

 

my god.

[Lays]

once again learn what you are talking about,

 

specifically concerning maxwell's architectures behavior. 

 

my god.

 

 

How about instead of being an asshole, explaining what you mean so people don't mistake what you're talking about?

[ChrisxIxCross]

So is there a base price for anything under 72% then?

I wish. I wish there was a base price for Kingpins with no guaranteed asic score.

[Lethal Seraph]

I'd probably go with the lowest price and gamble with it.

[iCrushDreams]

I'd probably go with the lowest price and gamble with it.

Not sure if that's worth it anymore. Since they're taking more and more of the high ASIC chips out of the standard chip market by selling them in tiers like this, you're far less likely to get a good ASIC chip with the regular price now since they're taking them out to sell as a separate product.

 

It's like if there was 5 blue marbles (regular chips) and 5 red marbles ('binned' chips) in a bag (the market). You obviously want to pull out a red marble when you go to draw from the bag (buying a card). Your chance is 50% right now to pull a red marble (good ASIC chip) versus pulling a blue marble (average chip).

 

Now, if there were the same 5 blue marbles in the bag but now there's only 2 red marbles because the other 3 were taken out to put into a different bag (the bag of K|ngP|n chips). Because of this, your chance of getting a red marble (good ASIC chip) is only 28% when it could have been 50% before the red marbles were taken out of the bag.

[Ashaira]

It's not that simple, as the ole silicon lottery is still very important. It mostly helps with voltages, and it being lower can help with water and LN2 since the card usually runs a bit hotter then.

 

But here is something i don't understand. Silicon lotery aside (i know about it and there is nothing you can do about it) wouldn't you always want cards with both good asic and lower voltage? Or are they contrary in some way when you put the cards on water?

[Cl2G]

Right on..

Based on the comments in the thread, maybe best its best to let you guys know(who don't already) a little bit about what ASIC is and how it relates to this card or any other card for that matter past or present.
I'll hang out here a bit and check back often to answer any questions by OC.net'rs about the card, ASIC, pricing, air performance, ln2 performance, ANYTHING .
I would rather respond with the correct information directly to someone, than see that person repeating the wrong information. They haven't started selling just yet AFIK..
Ill answer some of the questions I've seen asked already to get a start.

ASIC is not a new "measurement" , its been around for a very long time. Only just recently is it available to be seen through public utility though(gpuz). It represents a few measurements on a GPU, not just one as many think. Basically it measures the performance ability of a gpu at a given voltage. There is another measurement of leakage as well. These two values represent "ASIC" as you guys know it.
Without talking about numbers or percentages yet, higher ASIC quality means a GPU will require less voltage to run at say default specs. What does this mean roughly? It means that this GPU is using less voltage and is generating less heat per clock than a lower ASIC counterpart. HOWEVER it also means the voltage limit of what it can take on air as well as the voltage response getting weaker/noisy. Here comes the leakage part. Highest ASIC gpus have also have the highest leakage, low ASIC gpus have lowest leakage. The two values scale linearly. This is why the lowest ASIC cards are the ones that can take loads of voltage on air, and the response is good. Usually these low asic cards can OUT OVERCLOCK their higher asic counterparts because they end up scaling higher on clocks maxed out with the benefit of the voltage increase that the high ASIC cards cannot. They are stuck on lower volts because the leakage is already very high.

How does ASIC relate to air overclocking? Typically a higher ASIC gpu will overclock nicely on default voltage/air cooling, yielding highest overclocks WITHOUT any voltage increase. Less voltage/less heat. Lower ASIC gpu will need to use more voltage for a given clock as the higher ASIC one. Back in the Kepler days, this meant great air/water overclocking on our 680's and 780's. I remember posting a thread at evga explaining to people that they needed to use 1.4v+ (at dmm) to max out their classified gpus on air. God I miss those days . Back then, the best gpus on air/water were the low asic ones, they could always oc/ov the highest. Times have changed, and this doesn't apply to maxwell however.

How does ASIC relate to Maxwell Air overclocking? With maxwell gpus the above definitions of ASIC do not apply Well you guys know maxwell 980,980ti, titanx have ambient cooling voltage limit on what v's you can give it on air/water. That's just the way it is. Its been proven over and over on every single manuf brand 980,titanx, 980ti. kp980 owners as well, no different. These gpus don't like voltage on air over 1.22-1.23v usually max. Just green garbage all over the screen with more, no better clocks. Best clocks usually achieved with stock voltage or maybe slightly higher.
So given what we know about ASIC quality and the voltage scaling capability of 980,980ti,t-x on air/water(NONE), it indicates the best gpus on 980Ti, will be the ones that can overclock the highest on default voltage or near default voltage. Ever noticed why almost every single review of 980ti (any brand) is around 1500mhz? The reviewer never can never add much voltage for better OC result.
I'm mostly an Ln2 person, but some users complaining about 980kpe not overclocking on air prompted me to try and make a better bios for ambient that would allow voltage. I managed a slight improvement that works on some cards, that's about it. But I learned a lot about the scaling of Maxwell on Air during that time and how we could if anything improve on this with KP980TI.

How does ASIC relate to LN2 overclocking and more specifically kp980ti?
As explained above, higher asic = higher leakage. Leakage is actually a good thing and can be contained on LN2 cooling. Cards with more leakage will run a bit hotter, usually extending cold limits on gpus and getting more core MHZ on LN2. Every overclocker wants every last mhz right? Higher ASIC GPUS also have better memory controllers and typically can overclock the memory very high on LN2. Lower ASIC gpus usually are not so good at driving the memory on Ln2 and the overclocker will lose a lot of MHZ when going cold.
Lastly, every serious overclocker knows the highest ASIC gpus use the least amount of voltage for any given clock. This means these gpus will always have the highest potential for scaling to the absolute highest clock on LN2, because most 980ti gpus max out around the same voltage level on the high end max max ln2 as well. Wouldn't you want the most clock you could get for that voltage . KP card pushes them all the way. Unless its a lemon gpu (cant test every single one on ln2 lol), it will max out on this card.

Does high ASIC guarantee highest clocks on air? NO. The other part of ASIC which is Leakage is high on these, so that can actually hold back some high asic gpus on air. This doesn't mean its bad on Ln2 as well, and usually the contrary. I Tested around 15 pieces or so of KP980Ti these days, all different asic levels. Some as high as 81% all the way to 64% (which we wont even sell  the average clocks on air were roughly 1550mhz Lowest was 1526mhz, highest was 1592mhz . Seemed like every card went to 1539mhz or so  Most of the higher asic cards did as expected and hit the upper 1550's. None could pass 1600mhz, but some came really close! Those were mostly higher ASIC%'s. You should know that every kp980ti is binned gpu and even the minimum ASIC level for any card is very high compared to average. A 70-72% asic card is a great card. Reviewers should be hitting low to mid 1500's on avg and some cards hitting close to 1600. If your an air/water guy and don't plan to run ln2, I think no matter what asic level of card you get, it will do mid-low 1500's and there is a chance on all kp 980Tis regardless of asic to hit the magic 1600. Still need some luck too, leakage can limit this. For the hardcore users or the ones that may run ln2, I would think more seriously about asic and the time/money you can save buy getting something closer to what you want. Being an Ln2 overclocker myself, I feel this buy is mostly for you.

Does ASIC % guarantee highest clocks on LN2? No it doesn't, it is only an indicator of what to expect. EVGA is giving the chance for customers to zero in on exactly on what you want. Some users will try many cards to find the highest asics for best LN2 overclocking, its not a new thing. The highest ASIC gpus will almost always be the best ones on LN2 as explained above. These are the users we mostly are targeting with this. The ones that end up buying and trying lots of cards to find the one gem, almost always a high ASIC card. They will end up spending much more than the price difference of kp980ti high asic and wasting lots of time in the process. This is geared for them.

Are we binning gpus away from other cards to make this one (classy or other)?. LOL I wish, but no way that's possible or anyone would even let me do that haha. For sure there will be guys on classys or other cards who find a high asic gpu here or there and im sure they will let us all know they paid XXXX lower than what someone paid for their KP and still got a high asic.
KP980ti is very special card in many ways hw wise. This is just one special added buying option for our more hardcore users on first few batches directly from us, that's all 

Anything I didn't cover or you want to know something specifically about the card, I'm happy to answer.

 

 

 

 

from vince " kingpin " 

[Valentyn]

But here is something i don't understand. Silicon lotery aside (i know about it and there is nothing you can do about it) wouldn't you always want cards with both good asic and lower voltage? Or are they contrary in some way when you put the cards on water?

 

Lower Asic means more voltage leak, which while it makes the card hotter, under water and LN2 it's easier to get more voltage out for extreme OC's.

 

[Cl2G]

Lower Asic means more voltage leak, which while it makes the card hotter, under water and LN2 it's easier to get more voltage out for extreme OC's.

 

 

 

dude seriously go read my last post, you are wrong.

 

 

vince lucido " kingping " just clearly stated THIS about voltage leak and asic

 

his word is FACT.

 

 

Highest ASIC gpus have also have the highest leakage, low ASIC gpus have lowest leakage. 

[Valentyn]

dude seriously go read my last post, you are wrong.

 

 

vince lucido " kingping " just clearly stated THIS about voltage leak and asic

 

his word is FACT.

 

 

Highest ASIC gpus have also have the highest leakage, low ASIC gpus have lowest leakage. 

 

No person's word is fact. What 8Pack has to say on the matter

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/411772-evga-puts-an-end-to-the-silicon-lottery-for-the-first-time-ever-with-the-gtx-980-ti-kngpn/?p=5542171

 

8Pack recently mentioned on Overclocker.co.uk that it still down to a normal silicon lottery, and ASIC doesn't have much bearing for high overlocks.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=28280875&postcount=4104

 

 

Is higher asic important?

In my experience not so. My Classified had high ASIC my HOF low. Both clocked amazing. Its a silicon lottery in terms of ASIC and overclocking. Vince is actually on about 980 not 980 Ti but in my experience the same applies. 

EVGA are always shrink wrapped yes. Other brands are not. 

 

Gibbo at OcUK as well

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=28281023&postcount=4110

 

 

Hi there

Simples:

High ASIC score = Higher boost clock out of box

Lower ASIC score = lower boost clock out of box but still at or above advertised speeds.

Overclocking = ASIC score means absolute nothing, all down to silicon which you can not tell by ASIC score.

 

[Cl2G]

8pack doesnt work with some of the best engineers in the industry, either. 

 

nor does he hold any records.

 

believe what you want, you're the one following an outdated and misrepresented chart from a free " tool. "  that doesnt even apply to current architecture. 

 

 

your source also doesn't work for a company in r/d on gpu tech and hardware, nor does he have access to hundreds of cards throughout the dev cycle that back up his stated " personal opinion. "

 

carry on, clown. 

 

where's the 8 pack model card and in what mfg's home office is his oc and r/d lab stationed?  :lol:

[Ashaira]

dude seriously go read my last post, you are wrong.

 

 

vince lucido " kingping " just clearly stated THIS about voltage leak and asic

 

his word is FACT.

 

 

Highest ASIC gpus have also have the highest leakage, low ASIC gpus have lowest leakage. 

 

So for high water OC you still want high asic cards. It's not garuanteed but offers a higher chance. Is this valid for all GPUs or is this specific to Maxwell cards?

[TheMcSame]

8pack doesnt work with some of the best engineers in the industry, either. 

 

nor does he hold any records.

 

believe what you want, you're the one following an outdated and misrepresented chart from a free " tool. "  that doesnt even apply to current architecture. 

 

 

your source also doesn't work for a company in r/d on gpu tech and hardware, nor does he have access to hundreds of cards throughout the dev cycle that back up his stated " personal opinion. "

 

carry on, clown. 

 

where's the 8 pack model card and in what mfg's home office is his oc and r/d lab stationed?  :lol:

You can be one of the leading people in your field and still be wrong, ASIC quality making a huge impact is about as true case fans destroying headers when being blown around with canned air. It's just BS that's been circulated around and people have just believed it because "it's on the internet so it must be true" or just because some big figure said it's true. The silicon lottery is what determines how something will overclock, not ASIC quality.

[ChrisxIxCross]

Update: Vince just posted this further detailing how much ASIC affects overclocking.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1565834/evga-com-evga-to-offer-ability-to-purchase-980ti-kinpin-cards-by-asic/120#post_24201543

[Xorbot]

It's just BS that's been circulated around and people have just believed it because "it's on the internet so it must be true" or just because some big figure said it's true. The silicon lottery is what determines how something will overclock, not ASIC quality.

 

Should I believe you?  Your statement is on the Internet, so it might be false?

[Valentyn]

8pack doesnt work with some of the best engineers in the industry, either. 

 

nor does he hold any records.

 

believe what you want, you're the one following an outdated and misrepresented chart from a free " tool. "  that doesnt even apply to current architecture. 

 

 

your source also doesn't work for a company in r/d on gpu tech and hardware, nor does he have access to hundreds of cards throughout the dev cycle that back up his stated " personal opinion. "

 

carry on, clown. 

 

where's the 8 pack model card and in what mfg's home office is his oc and r/d lab stationed?  :lol:

 

Top Overclocker in the UK, the person has an 8pack Edition 2000W PSU , and no GPU edition? No world records either? Jeez just putting his name into google shows some Headlines "8 Pack Does It Again" "8 Pack of OcUK returns with 3 world overclocking records." "8Pack Sets Multiple World Records with the Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion HD"  "8Pack and der8auer break 15 overclocking world records"

 

Seriously, just google the guy's name....

 

You must be right though, one of the best in the world; but he obviously, absolutely has NO contacts or access to early tech, or gpu's Obviously....

[TheMcSame]

Should I believe you?  Your statement is on the Internet, so it might be false?

Hehe

 

It's a double edged sword, I know, but people need to learn that just because some big person said something it doesn't automatically make it true. It comes back to the free spinning fan example, big members within the tech community will say don't let the spin because they generate current and they can kill the headers, when in actual fact they generate so little current it's barely measurable.

[ChrisxIxCross]

Card just went up 20 minutes ago and all of them are gone already. Unreal....

[Hunter7263]

Top Overclocker in the UK, the person has an 8pack Edition 2000W PSU , and no GPU edition? No world records either? Jeez just putting his name into google shows some Headlines "8 Pack Does It Again" "8 Pack of OcUK returns with 3 world overclocking records." "8Pack Sets Multiple World Records with the Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion HD"  "8Pack and der8auer break 15 overclocking world records"

 

Seriously, just google the guy's name....

 

You must be right though, one of the best in the world; but he obviously, absolutely has NO contacts or access to early tech, or gpu's Obviously....

I believe there is a word for what you just did to the guy you quoted.... I thinks its called... umm hold on.... I remember this... Pwnage.

[Hunter7263]

You can be one of the leading people in your field and still be wrong, ASIC quality making a huge impact is about as true case fans destroying headers when being blown around with canned air. It's just BS that's been circulated around and people have just believed it because "it's on the internet so it must be true" or just because some big figure said it's true. The silicon lottery is what determines how something will overclock, not ASIC quality.

There is a lot of stuff that determines overclocking ability. ASIC is one of them, so is the silicon lottery, so are the power management components on a board. There isn't a single factor that determines this stuff. Does the silicon lottery play a higher factor? From what I have read probably. Does ASIC play no factor? I don't believe this to be true.

 

The best example of how its not just the silicon lottery that determines overclocking just look at intels 4770k vs the 4790k. The Thermal interface material allowed the 4790k to be on average (you will see examples of 4770k's winning but this is not the norm) beat the 4770k in overclocking. Same cpu, same architecture, one wasn't some cut down version of the other.

 

My point is you never know what the weak point in a card is that is going to hold it back. Maybe the fans are only spinning at 98% at max, maybe you have a slightly shittier capacitor or resister that is impeding power flow, maybe the thermal paste was screwed up by accident because the machine ran out and the sensors let it put it one card it shouldn't have with out getting more first.

[TheMcSame]

There is a lot of stuff that determines overclocking ability. ASIC is one of them, so is the silicon lottery, so are the power management components on a board. There isn't a single factor that determines this stuff. Does the silicon lottery play a higher factor? From what I have read probably. Does ASIC play no factor? I don't believe this to be true.

 

The best example of how its not just the silicon lottery that determines overclocking just look at intels 4770k vs the 4790k. The Thermal interface material allowed the 4790k to be on average (you will see examples of 4770k's winning but this is not the norm) beat the 4770k in overclocking. Same cpu, same architecture, one wasn't some cut down version of the other.

We're talking about GPUs, specifically the K|NGP|N, something that isn't gimmped by poor TIM, poor power management and other poor components, EVGA wouldn't gimp a card designed for breaking world records meaning those are done and out the way.

I'm not saying ASIC has no play in the fact, I'm saying that it has such a little role that it really doesn't matter compared to the way the silicon lottery effects it.