The skyrim mods cost more than the game.

[zappian]

Which mods have been taken out? Isoku backed down and his mods were one of the few out there that could be worth investing in.

He's a perfect example of how the Nexus is still at the forefront of the modding community, if you don't want to pay for iNeed, you don't have too. Go to the Nexus and get RND.

There will always be an alternative.

That said, the level of anger that people have brought down upon well respected and, to a point, beloved people like Chesko or even Isoku is really shameful.

The Skyrim modding community had always been better than this. These people put hours of their lives into creating something for everybody's enjoyment. They did it selflessly because it is something that they enjoy doing. Years went by and they didn't see a penny for their commitment and now that they might make .25 for every dollar, they are receiving death threats?

I wanna believe that the majority of the perpetrators are kids from steam that now won't get to use the mods because of the paywall.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/33pah6/list_of_skyrim_mods_that_have_been_removed_from/

[pablopg69]

http://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/33pah6/list_of_skyrim_mods_that_have_been_removed_from/

Everything on that list is replaceable. Maybe better dynamic snow is a true loss but how long before someone comes up with an alternative?

[GrimNeo]

No paid mods edition. Here you go.

[ThomasD]

I simply cannot give a point by point refutation of all the misconceptions in that discussion (which was still very good and quite informative) but the point about Valve/Bethesda making money off of improvements like a better/more functional UI is really a poor argument.

 

A better UI is a lot like an aftermarket company making better fuel injectors, or a new eprom for a certain model car.  Yes, it makes the car run better than as originally sold.  But the original manufacturer only makes money off that new device if/when they sell the new product for it's makers.  If the new product gets sold some other way (e.g. aftermarket parts catalogue or website) then the original manufacturer gets nothing.

 

Same for Valve/Bethesda.  They make money on something like that only because they sell it through their system.

 

Nothing prevents the makers of SkyUI (as one example) from selling their product direct, outside of Steam/Valve/Bethesda.

[GrimNeo]

Immersive Paywall mod is the best. Also the Kill Lord Gaben mod as well. No paid mods as well lol.

[zappian]

Everything on that list is replaceable. Maybe better dynamic snow is a true loss but how long before someone comes up with an alternative?

 

Its replacable for now.

Its gonna get bigger and bigger.

And this mess is gonna snowball even more.

Its been what ? Two days?

And mods have already been removed , DMCA striked etc.

The modding community is fighting as i speak , just go to the skyrim nexus and see the comments on the sky UI mod.

And lets speak about the alternative, who says that alternative wont be behind a pay wall?

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

We agree that the system put in place is not in favor of the modders, but then again, why should it? It's Valve's system, they don't have to look after anybody by themselves.

In a way, people took the whole "Lord GabeN giveth" crap way too seriously. Despite his goodwill towards the community, he is still a business owner.

What I meant with Gopher's statement was that it was a balanced point of view and it was a refreshing take on the matter for me, as a modder user.

If people want to sell their crap on steam, let them. It is their choice to charge for their service if they think they deserve compensation for work. In the end, we, as a community, decide whether we buy them or not.

Regarding the potential legal issues modders might encounter, they have to be smart about it if they plan to make a profit on their work. If they're using illegal copies of whatever software as still put their work for sale, it's on them.

Personally, I can't take ALL of the drama seriously. Some of the people might be honest with their anger and intentions but I feel the great majority only complain about this because they constantly need a reason to complain.

Ps: great video too

 

Yea there are just way too many opinions and view and what not. I feel that this system should be replaced with something else. We'll just have to see how this plays out. 

 

<snip> 

 

Ah... I might have phrased my statement wrongly too have caused you to misunderstand my views on Gopher. The views of modders are very conflicted. This can be seen from mods that have been hidden on the nexus due to them protesting against "paid mods". After reading threads on Loverslab and other sites, many modders are also in favour of keeping mods free.

 

Here's a quote from a mod author (yui0820) : 

 

How about this?

 

Like it? No? Yeah, I don't like it either.

 

This is Shit !...

 

Of course, you might take whatever I'm saying with a grain of salt since I've only quoted one modder. After days of reading discussions by modders you will find that there are many who support paid mods and there are many who don't. I've only ever made very simple mod for myself and obviously cannot compare to the amount that Gopher has done.

 

You've stated that I am only making claims that I know the mindset of modders. But with enough digging around in the internet you will find that many modders do not share the same view. Also that was a reply to an earlier statement that said "he (Gopher) represents the average modder mindset" my statement was a reply to this.  And since the person I was replying to was speaking of Gopher's representation. It would be more appropriate to say that Gopher represents the modders who share the same views as him. It wouldn't make sense for Gopher to represent a modder who shares an entirely different view from him.  

 

You've accused me of making claims. But If you'd have watched the video in my post, you'd find that I'm merely listing points that were discussed in the video discussions. I've also stated

"Skywind's modders" and continued to state the points they've made in text. I wasn't representing, I was just listing points. 

[ThomasD]

Snip.

Sure, it is perfectly fine to note that opinions vary, and that everyone is not in agreement.  But that's really not what you did.  You tried to argue that Gopher didn't represent the modders mindset, when in fact, as you now note, the modders mindset is quite diverse on the issue.  And I haven't "accused" you of making claims I've quoted them.

 

People are really letting their emotions cloud their judgement on this issue. 

 

I have no problem with people being critical of this move by Valve/Bethesda if/when their arguments can stand up to logical and reasonable scrutiny.  But too much of it is weak sauce and appeals to emotion.

 

There certainly are valid reasons why this experiment may fail.  If I had to pick the most likely problem it is the intellectual property concerns - they could prove more expensive than the revenue generated.  Valve might have been better off starting with a game that didn't already have so much material ripe for theft/abuse.  When everyone is starting from scratch (free, or otherwise) then that sort of stuff is harder to get away with.  IMO starting with Skyrim was a double edged sword.

 

But overall I do not think the problem is an unwillingness among gamers to throw money at things they want.

[MoonSpot]

I simply cannot give a point by point refutation of all the misconceptions in that discussion (which was still very good and quite informative) but the point about Valve/Bethesda making money off of improvements like a better/more functional UI is really a poor argument.

 

A better UI is a lot like an aftermarket company making better fuel injectors, or a new eprom for a certain model car.  Yes, it makes the car run better than as originally sold.  But the original manufacturer only makes money off that new device if/when they sell the new product for it's makers.  If the new product gets sold some other way (e.g. aftermarket parts catalogue or website) then the original manufacturer gets nothing.

 

Same for Valve/Bethesda.  They make money on something like that only because they sell it through their system.

 

Nothing prevents the makers of SkyUI (as one example) from selling their product direct, outside of Steam/Valve/Bethesda.

 

the issue with SkyUI it that A LOT of other mods utilize it, and those modders made their mods under the understanding that SkyUI was both free for them to resource into and to recommend to their users.  Other than that (which is a big thing) I would have to agree...despite the bitter taste I experience trying to voice that concession aloud.

 

However I do not think that the same can be said for the unofficial patches without highlighting ones unfamiliarity with skyrim and particularly skyrim mods.

[pablopg69]

the issue with SkyUI it that A LOT of other mods utilize it, and those modders made their mods under the understanding that SkyUI was both free for them to resource into and to recommend to their users.

I agree it's a shame to have SkyUI 5.0 bot being free but, the last time SkyUI was updated was all the way back in 2013. Older, well established, free mods that rely on SkyUI will not use 5.0 simply because it won't get adopted as much as 4.1. Sure, with steam and 4$~ you'll get a newer version but not mod support.

[Albatross]

Is the OP listed mod seriously one on sale at the moment? Ahaha, the animations/explosion looks like it was photoshopped onto an image. :lol:

 

Oh Steam...how the mighty have fallen! This is what the of real competition brings us.

[ThomasD]

the issue with SkyUI it that A LOT of other mods utilize it, and those modders made their mods under the understanding that SkyUI was both free for them to resource into and to recommend to their users.  Other than that (which is a big thing) I would have to agree...despite the bitter taste I experience trying to voice that concession aloud.

 

However I do not think that that the same can be said for the unofficial patches without highlighting ones unfamiliarity with skyrim and particularly skyrim mods.

Yeah, that was another misconception from the video as regards what the Valve attorney told the the guy who made the fishing mod.  A couple points.

 

1.  Never, ever, take legal advice from someone else's attorney.  An attorney either works for you, or he does not - there is no in between. If they do not represent you, they are under no obligation to give you good advice.  Period.

 

2.  The whole "if mod A relies on mod B" argument is nonsense.  The only problem is: Does the thing you are selling contain someone else's property?

 

It is all about the actual content.  And that is exactly what got the Fishing mod guy in trouble - not that his mod used, or even required FNIS, but that it contained actual FNIS scripts written by the person(s) who made FNIS.  He's been rather coy about that fact, but that is exactly what he did (even if, maybe, he didn't actually know he was doing it at the time.)

 

But you bring up a larger point - most of the stuff people are actually using right now is going to stay free to play, even as the owners try to keep it from being used in someone else's pay mods.  The only people "hurt" by this are the pay modders who don't get a free ride, and perhaps the original creators who may have to spend some time policing Valve/Steam/Bethesda/whoever to protect their property.  A situation not unlike what goes on on Youtube already.

[MoonSpot]

Here's a quote from a mod author (yui0820) :  

How about this?

Like it? No? Yeah, I don't like it either.

 

This is Shit !...

In those pictures alone I see no less then a dozen resources used from other mods.  Race, hair, makeup, armor, eyes, even the gosh darned eyebrows.  It's an example of mods that might not happen if others go pay.  Especially since the rights to share their work as resources for others might not be theirs after they've uploaded it to steam/beth, especially if those seeking rights to use it want to do so for free.

[DeViLzzz]

I don't mind modders getting paid for their work but the way Valve, Bethesda and the modders that jumped on this early are not going about it in the right way at all. A small group of Steam Marketplace modders settling for pittance/a raw deal does not help other modders at all for the future.  Also Bethesda and Valve getting as much as they get when they do what?  It is ridiculous.  Also the quality control issue is going to be a problem.  At least with real DLC you knew it would work but with this stuff when a patch comes out for a game it often gets broken and who says after the 24 hr warranty is up when you buy the mod that the person will ever update it again.  With DLC you know it will get updated to work with a new patch. Eh as for the mods costing more than the game well it is an older game and it is on sale so there is the lower price.  Also they want people that don't have the game to jump on board and play it and buy all these lovely mods at the Steam Marketplace pushing the new mods for sale deal to success.

Eh anyway on the subject of mods and Skyrim what are the best mods for making the game look better and work better that are available free on Nexus?  I have never used Nexus or the mods there before and decided after hearing all about mods and this fiasco that I would give Skyrim mods a look to see just how good they are.  Now I don't want any mods that add quests or characters and change game play.  I just want graphical upgrade.  I have a 2 GB GTX 670 with an i5 2500K and 8 GB of ram.  Any help here is greatly appreciated.

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

Sure, it is perfectly fine to note that opinions vary, and that everyone is not in agreement.  But that's really not what you did.  You tried to argue that Gopher didn't represent the modders mindset, when in fact, as you now note, the modders mindset is quite diverse on the issue.  And I haven't "accused" you of making claims I've quoted them.

 

People are really letting their emotions cloud their judgement on this issue. 

 

I have no problem with people being critical of this move by Valve/Bethesda if/when their arguments can stand up to logical and reasonable scrutiny.  But too much of it is weak sauce and appeals to emotion.

 

There certainly are valid reasons why this experiment may fail.  If I had to pick the most likely problem it is the intellectual property concerns - they could prove more expensive than the revenue generated.  Valve might have been better off starting with a game that didn't already have so much material ripe for theft/abuse.  When everyone is starting from scratch (free, or otherwise) then that sort of stuff is harder to get away with.  IMO starting with Skyrim was a double edged sword.

 

But overall I do not think the problem is an unwillingness among gamers to throw money at things they want.

 

" I'm sorry but Gopher does not represent the modder's mindset. He only represents those who think like him or share the same views as him" 

 

My above statement is meaning that Gopher does not represent all the modders mindset (the "who" in my above statement 

is referring to the modders) but Gopher represents modders who share the same views as him. My sentence construction might have been too vague 

that caused you to misunderstand but I have never argued that Gopher did not represent any modder. I argued that he only represents those who share his views. 

 

I have to agree with you only the unwillingness part with money. Users weren't prepared for the announcement. One of Skyrim strongest points was additional hours of game time that

could be had for free with large scale mods. Its very difficult to get everyone to get used to it overnight. Especially when DLCs are so looked down upon. Users will be quick to assume 

that they will now have to pay for future mods. What was more infuriating to the users was that mods like Falskarr are no where to be seen when people assumed that paid mods will bring higher quality mods.

 

This is just my assumption though.  

[MoonSpot]

2.  The whole "if mod A relies on mod B" argument is nonsense.  The only problem is: Does the thing you are selling contain someone else's property?

 

 

I agree with your first point, obviously.  However the second one, to me, highlights the difference between community and business.  I get that both valve and bethesda want to preserve the community PR and capitalize on what is effectively skyrim modding community commons for profit.  It is not nonsense, it is the issue and one that modders are not particularly familiar with as it is the exact opposite of what community modding has been.

 

I don't know whether chesko's mod had FNIS code copied and pasted within it.  I suspect it would have to, it's a framework.

 

Not that your wrong.  It just fucking blows. 

[pablopg69]

Eh anyway on the subject of mods and Skyrim what are the best mods for making the game look better and work better that are available free on Nexus? I have never used Nexus or the mods there before and decided after hearing all about mods and this fiasco that I would give Skyrim mods a look to see just how good they are. Now I don't want any mods that add quests or characters and change game play. I just want graphical upgrade. I have a 2 GB GTX 670 with an i5 2500K and 8 GB of ram. Any help here is greatly appreciated.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/30936/?

This is a good place to start. Don't get the ENB and skip Vurt's flora overhaul. Also, you might wanna pass on any grass mod but it'll be depending on how you're doing. Use your common sense don't get 4k versions of textures if you are using 1080p monitor.

Alternatively, Gopher, the modder we have been mentioning has a very handy beginner's guide to modding Skyrim and Fallout3 on YouTube and a great mod showcase library for you to see what you could be getting.

Source: I have the same GPU. 1080p works great. You could also go up to 1440p but you'll be pushing it.

[pablopg69]

I don't know whether chesko's mod had FNIS code copied and pasted within it. I suspect it would have to, it's a framework.

He had permission to use it for his mod because you'd need FNIS for that to work. In the workshop, you don't have that so I guess he made it into a standalone version integrating it into his mod. Not a bad idea until he decided to charge money for it. Half the work wasn't his own.

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

In those pictures alone I see no less then a dozen resources used from other mods. Race, hair, makeup, armor, eyes, even the gosh darned eyebrows. It's an example of mods that might not happen if others go pay. Especially since the rights to share their work as resources for others might not be theirs after they've uploaded it to steam/beth, especially if those seeking rights to use it want to do so for free.

Yeap. This would totally slow down the development of mods that are character dependent. Thankfully enough those cosmetic mods have not gone to the paid mods section. Many hair models are from assets of other games. If someone decides to sell those, legal issues will arise.

[ThomasD]

I agree with your first point, obviously.  However the second one, to me, highlights the difference between community and business.  I get that both valve and bethesda want to preserve the community PR and capitalize on what is effectively skyrim modding community commons for profit.  It is not nonsense, it is the issue and one that modders are not particularly familiar with as it is the exact opposite of what community modding has been.

 

I don't know whether chesko's mod had FNIS code copied and pasted within it.  I suspect it would have to, it's a framework.

 

Not that your wrong.  It just fucking blows. 

Thanks for the clarification, now I get what you are saying.

 

And I cannot disagree, because it really boils down to your personal opinion - and that is what it is.  It's legal, but you don't have to like it.

 

And I'd recommend closely reading what Chesko posted on Reddit.  He says he included "an FNIS behavior file" when what he certainly must be talking about is the FNIS Behavior file - the one specifically mentioned in the terms of use section of the original mod.  Again, my impression is that he did not do this out of any intention to violate terms of use, more out of ignorance of exactly what he was doing (something that no software designer really wants to admit to, since it tends to create an "Oz behind the curtain" sort of impression.)

 

There can be little doubt that overall this sort of development - paid mods - will change the "community" of modding.  Better or worse?  Again, who is to say, as that often gets into issues that are largely aesthetic.   Many other forms of expression have gone through similar problems though.  Time was, in the folk (and early rock) music "community," the greatest complement you could pay another artist was to perform his song.  Now it's all about the royalties.

 

In many ways this sort of change was inevitable, the success of modding became it's own worst enemy.

[DeViLzzz]

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/30936/?

This is a good place to start. Don't get the ENB and skip Vurt's flora overhaul. Also, you might wanna pass on any grass mod but it'll be depending on how you're doing. Use your common sense don't get 4k versions of textures if you are using 1080p monitor.

Alternatively, Gopher, the modder we have been mentioning has a very handy beginner's guide to modding Skyrim and Fallout3 on YouTube and a great mod showcase library for you to see what you could be getting.

Source: I have the same GPU. 1080p works great. You could also go up to 1440p but you'll be pushing it.

It would have been nice to just be able to install the ENB.  Heck I even tried and it would not work with Nexus Mod Manager.  It downloaded the installer but it would not install all the mods.  As for choosing out of what you linked to me I find it kind of overwhelming and confusing.  I went to some sort of instructional video and it was just mind numbing.  Not a good start so far.  I did not go to Gopher's video guides because the one video I already watched of him talking about this whole mod fiasco was annoying but I guess I will give his guides a try.  Btw do I have to do a clean install of Skyrim again in Steam?  I downloaded the HD mod or whatever that is offered on Steam.  Do I need to get rid of that in order to use these other mods?

[pablopg69]

It would have been nice to just be able to install the ENB. Heck I even tried and it would not work with Nexus Mod Manager. It downloaded the installer but it would not install all the mods. As for choosing out of what you linked to me I find it kind of overwhelming and confusing. I went to some sort of instructional video and it was just mind numbing. Not a good start so far.

Really?

Hmm maybe here. It's step by step to get you started. The videos are long but it doesn't get easier than this.

Also, ENBs are a great way to get your game looking better but it's more of a collection of lighting effects and AAs.

For a graphic improvement, you'll need the textures and stuff like that.

[MoonSpot]

@ThomasD I don't know if using vs stealing, collaborating vs outsourcing, leasing vs borrowing is an opinion.  Nor is liability about like or dislike, but big legal issues.

(I'm more of a centrist, you'll find me going back and forth on issues trying to find the happy middle ground)

 

But I know I wouldn't say that moddings success is it's own enemy.  That's like saying an attractive woman that dresses a certain way is at fault for others actions toward her.

 

For the most part I'd say that the majority of us are on the same page and just having fun splitting hairs over hypothetical minutiae of how things could/should/will play out for various aspects this whole thing.  Also I'd say that we're all in agreement that beth/valve need a better system/platform if they actually want this to be a greater success for the parties involved.

Now I do think that at least valve has some thought in there as they've implemented their service providers program, which if nothing else relays that they understand that there are others that deserve a nod and a shake.  So with that I think there is hope for positive reform to an otherwise "holy f@%^ $#!7 gawd awful" start.

 

It would have been nice to just be able to install the ENB.  Heck I even tried and it would not work with Nexus Mod Manager.  It downloaded the installer but it would not install all the mods.  As for choosing out of what you linked to me I find it kind of overwhelming and confusing.  I went to some sort of instructional video and it was just mind numbing.  Not a good start so far.  I did not go to Gopher's video guides because the one video I already watched of him talking about this whole mod fiasco was annoying but I guess I will give his guides a try.  Btw do I have to do a clean install of Skyrim again in Steam?  I downloaded the HD mod or whatever that is offered on Steam.  Do I need to get rid of that in order to use these other mods?

 

Please use mod organizer instead of NMM and you won't have to worry about clean installs later(unless NMM has changed is the last 3 months).  Also the official HD pack is fine to be installed as you've done, pretty sure that's how it is for everyone.

 

The first steps are getting

Skyrim (legendary or all the official DLC, if not be aware that you'll need to take more care in which mods you download)

MO(ModOrganizer)

SKSE (skyrim Script extender)

SkyUI (the free one)

 

I understand that you said graphical only, that's what we all say at first.  Might I suggest you consider it in terms of lore friendly vs not.  Reason I say that is I suspect you'd really dig something like immersive armors, most people do...a lot.

 

Recent ones graphical ones that I've installed and enjoy are

rugnarok

peltapalooza

Dawnguard Fortress Improved High Resolution 2k

 

Not quite graphical ones to that I'd recommend looking at

Bijin War maidens

Bijin wives

Witchplate armor - It is kind of a standard to be frank,  especially if you have spellsword followers or are yourself between the lines of a magical warrior.

Realistic Transparent Glass Armors and Weapons v3 - transparent glass weapons and shields are nerd drool educingly cool.

 

There is no click next next finish way to get started using mods that I am aware of, not too far off though.  I had to watch some peoples videos twice to get things to sink in.  There can be a fair bit to it, but just get the snowball started rolling down the hill and you'll pick up a lot in relatively short order.

[DeViLzzz]

Really?

Hmm maybe here. It's step by step to get you started. The videos are long but it doesn't get easier than this.

Also, ENBs are a great way to get your game looking better but it's more of a collection of lighting effects and AAs.

For a graphic improvement, you'll need the textures and stuff like that.

I ended up following this text guide here (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/57353/?tab=1&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Fskyrim%2Fajax%2Fmoddescription%2F%3Fid%3D57353%26preview%3D&pUp=1) and I am hoping something will work. LOL

[pablopg69]

I ended up following this text guide here (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/57353/?tab=1&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Fskyrim%2Fajax%2Fmoddescription%2F%3Fid%3D57353%26preview%3D&pUp=1) and I am hoping something will work. LOL

Optimized Textures are a great starting point.