Brand new headphone, DAC+amp setup

[Oktyabr]

I'd like to try the X2 but they seem to always be out of stock!

Why buy a $300 pair of headphones and then skimp by using an unknown source in a motherboard sound chip?  Ask any of these guys that say the onboard sound chip is "sufficient" how they know that?  What's the output impedance of the headphone jack?  How much current is available on tap?  Voltage?  What op amp(s) does it actually use?  That's more question marks than I would gamble a pricey pair of cans on.  Further, while most won't be able to answer those questions about the sound chip on the motherboard I bet they can recite all the important information on their PSU (and the reasons they didn't just gamble on a cheap one).  The O2/ODAC or possibly the Magni/Modi combo sound good to me.  Worst case scenario is that they won't sound any better than your onboard chip (but highly probable that they won't sound any worse, either!) with the added convenience of having a quality, physical volume control under your finger tips.  Also components that can be easily moved to a different setup, etc.  (and they have a better resale value than a used motherboard, if you decide you don't like it!)  
 

[SSL]

I'd like to try the X2 but they seem to always be out of stock!

Why buy a $300 pair of headphones and then skimp by using an unknown source in a motherboard sound chip?  Ask any of these guys that say the onboard sound chip is "sufficient" how they know that?  What's the output impedance of the headphone jack?  How much current is available on tap?  Voltage?  What op amp(s) does it actually use?  That's more question marks than I would gamble a pricey pair of cans on.  Further, while most won't be able to answer those questions about the sound chip on the motherboard I bet they can recite all the important information on their PSU (and the reasons they didn't just gamble on a cheap one).  The O2/ODAC or possibly the Magni/Modi combo sound good to me.  Worst case scenario is that they won't sound any better than your onboard chip (but highly probable that they won't sound any worse, either!) with the added convenience of having a quality, physical volume control under your finger tips.  Also components that can be easily moved to a different setup, etc.  (and they have a better resale value than a used motherboard, if you decide you don't like it!)  

 

 

Headphones aren't going to be harmed by bad onboard, unlike a system by a bad power supply. If an amp or DAC is needed, it's necessarily going to be audible, otherwise one wouldn't be needed.

 

As I said in another thread, we can only report the balance of probability, which is that onboard audio is often as good as, and frequently less problematic, than shelling out additional money on an external solution, or even a soundcard.

[Oktyabr]

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are shopping for $300 headphones you probably aren't worried about spending $100+ on an amp/dac that at the very least (like the O2) have known and tested parameters rather than blindly plugging them in to whatever $2 solution the motherboard manufacturer thought should go on there.  How many threads have you read where people buy their first pair of really good headphones and then complain because they don't sound how they expected out of their "sufficient" cell phone or motherboard? 

[SSL]

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are shopping for $300 headphones you probably aren't worried about spending $100+ on an amp/dac that at the very least (like the O2) have known and tested parameters rather than blindly plugging them in to whatever $2 solution the motherboard manufacturer thought should go on there.  How many threads have you read where people buy their first pair of really good headphones and then complain because they don't sound how they expected out of their "sufficient" cell phone or motherboard? 

 

We advise people to try first, not blindly follow advice, in the hopes that they save money. I could've lived without an external amp, and a lot of people do.

[Oktyabr]

But if the only example of what a headphone can sound like is (arguably) "sufficient", how is one to know the worth of their purchase?  Where is the value in doing that?  Most manufacturers don't even bother to list optimistic specs on their onboard soundchips for many reasons, not all of them bad.  Personally I wouldn't plug in a new $300 pair of headphones into a cheap, unknown amplifier any more than I would plug a $3500 pair of Martin Logans into a $5 bookshelf system from the 2nd hand store.

But here, this is what I said:

"Worst case scenario is that they won't sound any better than your onboard chip (but highly probable that they won't sound any worse, either!) with the added convenience of having a quality, physical volume control under your finger tips.  Also components that can be easily moved to a different setup, etc.  (and they have a better resale value than a used motherboard, if you decide you don't like it!)"

What, in your opinion, is wrong with that assessment?  Convenience has a value.  Longevity over possibly multiple systems has a value.  Flexibility has a value.  Resale value IS a value.  A metal knob on well implemented volume pot has arguably better value than a flimsy plastic knob on a lesser quality pot (or implementation) and may have additional value compared to adjusting gain with a mouse.

[SSL]

But if the only example of what a headphone can sound like is (arguably) "sufficient", how is one to know the worth of their purchase?

 

Was speaking of the amp being sufficient, not the headphone. Insufficient amplification is most audible in clipping or insufficient volume.

 

Where is the value in doing that?  Most manufacturers don't even bother to list optimistic specs on their onboard soundchips for many reasons, not all of them bad.  Personally I wouldn't plug in a new $300 pair of headphones into a cheap, unknown amplifier any more than I would plug a $3500 pair of Martin Logans into a $5 bookshelf system from the 2nd hand store.

 

Plenty of audio companies don't publish specs, sometimes they can't sometimes they won't. Especially true in reference to boutique audio companies that "design by ear" and such nonsense, but not limited. Mayflower electronics doesn't publish their own specs, either, just regurgitated stuff from nwavguy's blog.

 

Your trust of external gear over onboard is misplaced. Classic example is the Shiit Asgard debacle that literally destroyed headphones.

But here, this is what I said:

"Worst case scenario is that they won't sound any better than your onboard chip (but highly probable that they won't sound any worse, either!) with the added convenience of having a quality, physical volume control under your finger tips.  Also components that can be easily moved to a different setup, etc.  (and they have a better resale value than a used motherboard, if you decide you don't like it!)"

What, in your opinion, is wrong with that assessment?  Convenience has a value.  Longevity over possibly multiple systems has a value.  Flexibility has a value.  Resale value IS a value.  A metal knob on well implemented volume pot has arguably better value than a flimsy plastic knob on a lesser quality pot (or implementation) and may have additional value compared to adjusting gain with a mouse.

 

Like I said, there is literally nothing stopping someone from adding an amp or DAC later if they feel like it. But if it isn't needed I'll choose to save $100-200.

[Oktyabr]

 

 

 

Like I said, there is literally nothing stopping someone from adding an amp or DAC later if they feel like it. But if it isn't needed I'll choose to save $100-200.

But that perceived "need" is highly subjective, unless you have objectivity to displace it with.  Hence why I recommend a device with known specifications, preferably with objective testing and review, over one that does not, whether that's a PSU, amplifier, or tires for a second hand Porsche.  It provides a degree of objectivity that can help alleviate doubt from a buyer's mind.  That in itself has value.  

 

[SSL]

But that perceived "need" is highly subjective, unless you have objectivity to displace it with.  Hence why I recommend a device with known specifications, preferably with objective testing and review, over one that does not, whether that's a PSU, amplifier, or tires for a second hand Porsche.  It provides a degree of objectivity that can help alleviate doubt from a buyer's mind.  That in itself has value. 

 

And still nothing stops from someone from defining that need themselves after they own the headphones.

[creatip123]

But that perceived "need" is highly subjective, unless you have objectivity to displace it with.  Hence why I recommend a device with known specifications, preferably with objective testing and review, over one that does not, whether that's a PSU, amplifier, or tires for a second hand Porsche.  It provides a degree of objectivity that can help alleviate doubt from a buyer's mind.  That in itself has value.  

 

 

Well, this reminds me of the analogy of the 'garden hose and sprinkler'. The article says, if you're gonna buy a new sprinkler, the logical way is to get the sprinkler and install it with whatever pump you already have (be it public plumbing or existing house pump), and see if the pump got enough pressure and current for the sprinkler to run as it's expected. If not, it's not too late to go and get an additional pump for the sprinkler. This avoids the possibility of buying a redundant device. 

 

As discussed in the other topic, an under-performed amp will manifests itself in abnormalities of sounds, be it low loudness, distortions, or clippings. Also noted that mild distortions can be hard to distinguish, and just manifests as 'thin bass', or 'hollow sounding'

 

Audio is a simple yet delicate thing, as it's very subjective. What sounds good to me could sound like shit to others.

 

As long as a headphone got adequate supply of voltage and current (or power), it will perform optimally. The other variable would just be sound coloring from using various amps. Too bad, what you say is true, it's kinda hard to find useful information on a device, like what's the maximum voltage, what's the maximum current, etc. The sound card companies are not making it easier with their vague 'powering up to 600 ohms headphones' Woootttttt....

 

Your logic is sound, as in 'I've spent $300 for this cans, it's natural if I spend $100 more on amp to make it sound better', but remember, the right way to determine this is by judging case-per-case.

 

There are numerous possibilities/examples that I could think of:

 

- I've bought the $300 Beats (the crappy 1st gen), so it's natural for me to spend $100 more on amp to make it sound better. But why does it still sound like shit?

 

- I've bought a $300 IEM, so bla bla bla $100 more on amp to get more power. Nope, there's no way an onboard/soundcard is underpowered for IEM, even the Soundblaster AWE64 from 1996. Output impedance, EMI, and noise problem maybe, but not underpowered.

 

- I've bought an $200 M50x, so bla bla bla $100 more on amp to make it sound better. Nope, something like M50x, which is very efficient won't benefit much from an amp. It's much better to not get them, and get a $300 headphone instead.

 

- I've bought a $300 headphone, so bla bla bla $100 more on amp to make it sound better. It does sound a bit better, but I honestly don't think that difference is worth $100. IMO, this is the point that SSL is always ranting about. Yeah money value is subjective. What's not worth it for me, could very much worth it for other people. It's just that people have been 'brainwashed' to believe that an amp is 'a magical thingy that will make my headphone to sing like the angles and spew rainbow around'. They start with big expectations, and got a hard reality check when their $100-$200 amp only improves the sound by a tiny bit. 

 

Like I said in the other thread, there's nothing wrong with the mindset of 'I think I'm gonna get an amp, even if it turns out to be redundant, or just improving the sound a bit'. The wrong thing is how a lot of people saying 'you'll need an amp' in fashion of 'you'll need a mouse for your PC'. You don't 'need' it like that, or to that extent (unless the existing system is faulty or fell very short behind). 

 

The regulars here aren't saying 'you absolutely don't need an amp', as that would be as bad as saying 'you absolutely need an amp'. The regulars here are saying 'do you really need an amp, or you just think you need an amp?'

 

*shit, TLDR....

[Oktyabr]

And still nothing stops from someone from defining that need themselves after they own the headphones.

Money.

Someone approaches a good pair of headphones with a limited budget, say $300, and leave conversations like this with the expectation that somehow a motherboard will provide 100% of what the headphones need to sound their best, and then go out and buy a $300 headphone...

I agree with you that in most cases, for most headphones and for most listener's ears (subjectivity), the onboard chip is probably going to be "sufficient".  In fact if someone approached me with a $300 budget and wondered how much they should spend of it on a sound card and how much on the headphones I would likely direct them to spend all of it on the phones themselves based on this logic, as the transducers are the only part of a system that actually produce audible energy.  But I would also say that with the caveat emptor, that "sufficient" ≠ "the best it can be", and with most motherboards, how close to the latter is an unknown quantity.

[xtroria]

-snip-

 

I think the biggest reason people are still advocating for amp for every single headphone purchase is simply because the generation of audiophiles before us needed amp / dac (+ preamp) everytime they were spending some money on a good audio gears. The audio solution that came in with motherboard, or other players two or a decade ago weren't great.

 

Nowadays however, is different. Good motherboards have good on-board, but ofc there are skeptics about them. Hence, the mass crowd asking do they need an amp for newly bought optimized for on-the-go M50x

 

The biggest problem is what you've stated, people buying amp thinking it makes their shitty headphones sound great. Amp and DAC are supposed to make your headphone sound at its 100% potential, compared to 60-70% with lesser audio solution, not 150% (this is generalization, tube amps or even some solid-state can change sound reproduction, this is however very subjective)

[Oktyabr]

 

 

The regulars here aren't saying 'you absolutely don't need an amp', as that would be as bad as saying 'you absolutely need an amp'. The regulars here are saying 'do you really need an amp, or you just think you need an amp?'

 

*shit, TLDR....

Well said, creatip123.  I understand that this topic is one that has grown to greater depths of polarity than it probably needs to.  So, let's try a hypothetical...   Someone YOU know, a friend, says "Hey!  I've been saving all year for a good pair of headphones and I know you have the HE-400 and seem to like them.  I'm going to go buy these and just plug them into my motherboard!  Right?!"  

What is your response?

[xtroria]

Well said, creatip123.  I understand that this topic is one that has grown to greater depths of polarity than it probably needs to.  So, let's try a hypothetical...   Someone YOU know, a friend, says "Hey!  I've been saving all year for a good pair of headphones and I know you have the HE-400 and seem to like them.  I'm going to go buy these and just plug them into my motherboard!  Right?!"  

What is your response?

 

HE-400 -> orthos

 

It's almost a must to get amp for orthos, more power = better bass response.

 

But for dynamic drivers, eh.

 

If I bought Fidelio X2 and not HD600, I would've been fine using it with on-board audio or my iBasso D-zero as amp

[Oktyabr]

HE-400 -> orthos

 

It's almost a must to get amp for orthos, more power = better bass response.

 

But for dynamic drivers, eh.

 

From creatip123's review of the HE-400:  "Hifiman claims that the HE-400 is so efficient that even small phones/media player have enough juice to drive it."

So there is that pesky "sufficient" thing again.  Should be good out of a motherboard jack too, right?  

Dynamic drivers can benefit from having more power (and a better damping rate) in the same way as electrostatics, and for the same reasons.

[xtroria]

From creatip123's review of the HE-400:  "Hifiman claims that the HE-400 is so efficient that even small phones/media player have enough juice to drive it."

So there is that pesky "sufficient" thing again.  Should be good out of a motherboard jack too, right?  

Dynamic drivers can benefit from having more power (and a better damping rate) in the same way as electrostatics, and for the same reasons.

 

Dynamic driver benefits from amp until it reaches a certain point where it can get all the power it wants, after that there's almost no improvement at all. 

 

and yes, Hifiman says that, but they didn't say it's the only thing you need.

 

At the budget OP is ready to shop with, something just "sufficient" is enough unless there's a big different which is why i recommended Fidelio X2, you don't need amp for it.

 

Of course, we're talking another matter if he's asking to get HE-560, LCD-2 or PM-1. I'd be shouting "GET THE LYR" if he's shopping for $1K headphone 

[SSL]

Clearly this "discussion" is going to spiral around and around forever, so I'm gonna bounce.

[Oktyabr]

I REALLY want to try the X2.  It might be my next headphone.  I too was considering the 990 (250 ohm) but after reading Tyll's review (for the second time) I'm thinking these might do the trick:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/boss-philips-fidelio-x2


As for not needing an amp, OK, fine.  35 ohm impedance on the X2 gives it a 3.5 damping factor (decidedly lower than the rule of thumb 8+) combined with the realtek chips used on most motherboards these days.  Worse if they follow the trend of putting a resistor in there, as some are reported as having done.  It's 100 db/mw efficiency is quite good though and should sound better out of a cell phone than many similar headphones in this price range.  I like the detachable, non-proprietary cable too, something every headphone over $150 should have, IMHO (and the DT 990 does not have).

The X2 needs a Massdrop...

[creatip123]

Well said, creatip123.  I understand that this topic is one that has grown to greater depths of polarity than it probably needs to.  So, let's try a hypothetical...   Someone YOU know, a friend, says "Hey!  I've been saving all year for a good pair of headphones and I know you have the HE-400 and seem to like them.  I'm going to go buy these and just plug them into my motherboard!  Right?!"  

What is your response?

 

I'd give the answers I've been giving with the HE400 and Q701, probably you'll need an amp

 

 

From creatip123's review of the HE-400:  "Hifiman claims that the HE-400 is so efficient that even small phones/media player have enough juice to drive it."

So there is that pesky "sufficient" thing again.  Should be good out of a motherboard jack too, right?  

Dynamic drivers can benefit from having more power (and a better damping rate) in the same way as electrostatics, and for the same reasons.

 

All the more sense in that garden hose-sprinkler analogy. Get one, try it for yourself, plug it in various devices, and decide for yourself if an amp is needed or not. 

 

Audio should be subjectively objective. Judge it for yourself, but try to keep the judgment as objective as possible.

 

The tendencies are objectively subjective. People treat some stranger's experience as an absolute fact. 'Hey, I have M50x, and I definitely need a powerful amp to make it loud enough' => people take this as an absolute fact that a M50x absolutely needs an amp. That's the case for me, but not necessarily the same case for you. If I disclosed a fact that I'm half deaf (example) in both ears, then those words are questionable. 

 

It's good to ask people and get as many info as possible, but it's best to experience it yourself. Get the headphone in question, try it with whatever devices available. If later on he/she feels it needs an amp, it's not too late to pick up one. 

 

The good questions are something like, 'I have this headphone, and it's distorting like crazy on my motherboard. Seems like I need an amp. What do you recommend?' These kind of questions usually got straight up, simple, short answers.

 

The common questions going on are something like, 'I wanna buy this headphone. People say I'd need an amp with this. Which one should I go for?' To which the regulars would answer, just get the headphone and try it first, get the amp later. I mean come on, what do you got to lose, besides time? It's not like 'if it won't run properly without an amp, I'd rather go with other headphones' => this I can understand the logic behind asking beforehand.

 

 

There are also deviations like the question 'I already have X sound card, installed and running. What settings should I use to make it sound better?' WTH? It's basically asking strangers to dictate your personal taste. How should we know what you'd deem 'better'?  You have the card, you have the headphone, try the settings for yourself. Takes 1 hour max. True story in this sub, by the way....

[Oktyabr]

 

 

It's good to ask people and get as many info as possible, but it's best to experience it yourself. Get the headphone in question, try it with whatever devices available. If later on he/she feels it needs an amp, it's not too late to pick up one. 

 

The good questions are something like, 'I have this headphone, and it's distorting like crazy on my motherboard. Seems like I need an amp. What do you recommend?' These kind of questions usually got straight up, simple, short answers.

 

The common questions going on are something like, 'I wanna buy this headphone. People say I'd need an amp with this. Which one should I go for?' To which the regulars would answer, just get the headphone and try it first, get the amp later. I mean come on, what do you got to lose, besides time? It's not like 'if it won't run properly without an amp, I'd rather go with other headphones' => this I can understand the logic behind asking beforehand.

As I said before.

Money.

The trend is, I think, for people that are just starting out with modestly expensive headphones, to buy the very best that they can afford.  I don't have a problem with this!  I have a problem with people not doing the necessary research before hand and then simply jumping the gun with the cheapest solution FIRST...  "try it in your motherboard jack".   Sure, it's sound, valid, and probably safe advice.  But it's not a "one size fits all" rule that should be endorsed as if it were either.  This is the buyer's problem, not the one giving the advice, but it can be avoided in most cases with a little more Q&A, such as taking your HE-400 as an example.   Didn't like the sound?  Can't afford the amp?  Get frustrated, rant and rave on forums like this one, swear off on higher end headphones altogether.  Return the headphones...  

Wouldn't it just be easier all around to express the caveat that not all headphones are created equal and that often as the price goes up so do the requirements to make them sound their best too?  As someone who's dabbled in DSLR photography long enough to learn most of the lessons the hard way I typically advise someone just getting into the hobby to simply plan on doubling their budget.  Camera costs Z.  Budget for 2*Z.  It's only a rough rule of thumb and if you save some money in the long run, good for you.  Much better than spending 100% of your budget on the principal item and then be dismayed when further expenses are accrued   I feel much the same way about headphones (and other stereo equipment) although on a slightly different scale.  I would much rather have a new headphone person enter the hobby prepared than not.  Buy the headphones you can afford but plan on an amp too.  Try it in your motherboard AND an amp.  Amp doesn't sound better?  Send it back.  Not talking hundreds of dollars here either.  Something like one of the FiiOs (as cheap as US$30) or a Schiit Fulla (US$79) might be just the thing.  The $100 you might spend on a monoprice amp/dac might be the best money you spend on sound, next to the headphones themselves.  Think they sound the same but don't care to send it back?  Cool!  You can use your motherboard as an emergency backup plan, and the motherboard in your next PC, and so on.  And you have a portable point of reference with your headphones as well.

From a reasoning point of view on board sound chips really haven't changed that much since they first came out.  They've gotten smaller, more power efficient, and cheaper to utilize.  And yeah, they have a ton of DSP bells and whistles, in case you want to plug it into a 7.1 (powered) surround system or make your voice sound like an alien on skype.  But headphones?  Good headphones?  Motherboard manufacturers don't care about this segment and why should they?   The majority of their customers will either not care about headphone performance, will be using a soundcard or will already have an external dac/amp.  Either way customer demand is not a motivation for spending more time, money and form factor space on improved headphone amplification.  The majority we DO know about (the infamous realtek family, with or without a TI op amp, in the "high fidelity" versions  :blink:) are rarely over spec'd for headphones.  Most have a minimum of 10 ohm output impedance.  Some as high as 100 ohm.

I posit that the majority of motherboard manufacturers do the bare minimum in these regards.  And until they start publishing verifiable (testable) specs then the wise money says you are lucky if sound comes out of a headphone jack at all on a motherboard, considering it's probably about $2 worth of parts.  Much safer to identify it as factor "X" in the sound reproduction equation.  It's a $300 pair of headphones.  How much is too much to spend on a little assurance that you might be getting the sound out of them you paid for?

Last but not least, the matter of convenience.  I run a desktop headphone amp that might cost around $200 today, new.  It's outlived my last five PC builds. I run all my headphones through it, even those I don't think are likely to require it.  Why not?  I have very good control over volume, right at my finger tips, it let's me use the 1/4" jack on my bigger headphones, it even has pre-amp outs so I just feed a pair of RCA's from it to my powered desktop 2.1 system (rather than fiddle around with yet another RCA-1/8" adapter).  My computer sits on the floor and to switch headphones would mean either using yet another adapter (an extension cable, at least), or crawling around under my desk so I could plug one in.  My desktop amp makes changing headphones easy as it can be.  Sound quality?  Maybe my motherboard has a good headphone amp in it... I don't know.  I've never used it.  But my desktop amp is absolutely dead silent when no music is playing, even with the volume turned all the way up.  And I have the added convenience of knowing  (no "X" factor) that the majority of headphones will play just fine plugged into it.  It's also built like a brick.

Sorry for the ramble...  perhaps I just feel that anyone getting into the $150+ headphone world deserves a better amp than the unknown "plug it in and see" of the motherboard.  YMMV.

[creatip123]

-snip-

 

 

Well, it has been pre-answered thoroughly in the FAQ topic. Lots of people are just too lazy to read that and choose to hop on the insta-train, going the instant way. Just fire away an instant question that's been asked hundreds of times, 'I have X headphone, do I need an amp?'

 

The 'return the amp if not satisfied' method is a good one. Unfortunately not all people are buying from the amazon with its 100% return policy. I live in Asia, and we got people from all over the world that don't have access to amazon (by no access I mean too much hassles and time to deal with amazon)

 

The 'try plugging it first to your onboard' method is a safe shot, not a sure shot as 'get an amp while you're at it'. But, that safe shot can be easily followed by the sure shot, which is getting an amp. The sure shot can't always be reversed, when the amp is proven to be a redundant purchase, for reasons like I said above. 

 

I myself do the 'yolo' method, because my curiosity is very high. I'd buy something, and if I don't like it, I'd buy a replacement, selling the old one, taking a price hit naturally. I do that, but I won't recommend other people to do that. If they want to do that, why not, but I won't recommend them. The reason is simple, the price hit. $10-$30 price hit per purchase, with 10 purchases and you'd have wasted enough money to upgrade the headphone itself. 

 

Onboards nowadays are already quite good, especially on gaming motherboards. The manufacturers also started to realize that more and more users are using headphones for gaming and other stuffs. This can be seen by them implementing built-in headphone amps and good op-amp chips on their onboards. Even my cheap mobo's VIA onboard sounds good with no audible noise floor. The only bad thing about it is its lack of loudness for my HE400, because it got no built-in head amp. Plugged to an amp, I can honestly say it sounds the same, just louder. With sensitive headphones like my AD700, I can't hear any difference between plugging it to onboard or to an amp in between. 

 

 

Sorry for the ramble...  perhaps I just feel that anyone getting into the $150+ headphone world deserves a better amp than the unknown "plug it in and see" of the motherboard

 

They do not 'deserve' it. They have the option to do or not to do it. I wanna get a $1000 amp for my $10 headphone? Sure, why not. I wanna get a $2000 headphone and plug it to my mobo? What's stopping me? It's each individual's personal choice. If you lack the knowledge, and most importantly the ears, to decide on the choice, then why not go with the safe shot, which is to try with onboard first, and get an amp later if you deem it necessary? Again, what do you got to lose with that method?

 

Here's a true story: I took my older brother to an audio shop to get a headphone. Naturally they offered him to get an amp to go with his headphone. They offered the few hundred bucks ALO amps. Problem is, while I can hear the difference (albeit minuscule), my brother can't hear any, between plugging it straight to his iphone 4 and with the amp in between. Aside of being louder, of course. In the end, he only bought the headphone, without an amp. He said, it was redundant anyway, purchasing something that does something that he can't perceive. Again, case per case. True story.

[Oktyabr]

 

Onboards nowadays are already quite good, especially on gaming motherboards. The manufacturers also started to realize that more and more users are using headphones for gaming and other stuffs. This can be seen by them implementing built-in headphone amps and good op-amp chips on their onboards. Even my cheap mobo's VIA onboard sounds good with no audible noise floor. The only bad thing about it is its lack of loudness for my HE400, because it got no built-in head amp. Plugged to an amp, I can honestly say it sounds the same, just louder. With sensitive headphones like my AD700, I can't hear any difference between plugging it to onboard or to an amp in between. 

 .

.

.

.

 

They do not 'deserve' it. They have the option to do or not to do it. I wanna get a $1000 amp for my $10 headphone? Sure, why not. I wanna get a $2000 headphone and plug it to my mobo? What's stopping me? It's each individual's personal choice. If you lack the knowledge, and most importantly the ears, to decide on the choice, then why not go with the safe shot, which is to try with onboard first, and get an amp later if you deem it necessary? Again, what do you got to lose with that method?

I don't think they are that good.  If they were, they would be promoted as such, with real details about real components and (probably optimistic) specs.  A good headphone section is not that expensive to implement, not when you are buying the components by the 1000 lot.  I remember my first Creative Labs Platinum, with the full size I/O drive box.  No, not the X-Fi or anything new, like that!  The *original* Sound Blaster Platinum.  Not a bad device.  I didn't know a good headphone section from a bad one but it looked impressive, sounded good, and most importantly, seemed to provide a glimpse of what the future might look like.  Today it's almost the same, exact device, with the same (lack) of specifications, and roughly the same price.  And still no better.

.

.

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"Again, what do you got to lose with that method?"

As I've said before, money...  "Uhgggg....  my budget is tight!  But I see this second hand sports car in pretty good shape... all it needs is tires and maybe a tune up!"  Buy the car, skip the tune up, buy tires that at least hold air and fit the wheels (but at a fraction of the price of what are recommended) and then wonder why it doesn't go around the track as fast as the magazines say it should!  "Yup, it moves!  Maybe next year I can afford some tires... IF I'm still interested..."  

When it comes to audio, especially the first relatively good pair of headphones, how are you supposed to know what you might be missing if you never try?  "Yup, they make sound...  Maybe next year I can afford an amp...  IF I'm still interested."

Personally I'd like motherboard manufacturers to just "man up" and either state "NO, we don't want you to plug good headphones into our crappy interface.", stop putting sound chips on them altogether (then they could expand the market into much larger tiers of sound cards and even USB externals!  Asus is headed that direction already, with their Xonar cards), OR offer one specifically designed for such a function (perhaps with a branded I/O box, like the SB Platinum) with clearly stated parts used and specs. 

Why do gamers buy expensive video cards instead of using the one on the motherboard?  Because it's relatively easy to find the chips and the specs and to do benchmark comparisons.  <<<< THIS is what is missing from the onboard audio end of the equation. 

My advice?  Budget even an affordable amp/dac IF you can, with your headphone purchase.  Better to have it and not need it than....  

[creatip123]

I don't think they are that good.  If they were, they would be promoted as such, with real details about real components and (probably optimistic) specs. 

 

 

They already do just that. Examples:

 

- http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4952#ov audio got featured from the first paragraph

- http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/RAMPAGE_V_EXTREME/ scroll down to the supremeFX section

 

The different view is actually simple, you have a base theory that all onboards are shit. I have a base theory that onboards used to be shit in the past, but with technological advancements, it's not hard and expensive to implement a good onboard audio. I experienced the era where Nokia 6630 symbian costs a little short of $400. Nowadays, touchscreen tablets with a lot more features and processing abilities can go as low as below $100.

 

Your analogy based on your base theory is about the sport car. My analogy based on my base theory is when you go to a new cafe, and order a lemon tea with extra sugar. Why'd you want extra sugar? Do you already know that it's not sweet enough for your tongue, considering you haven't tried this cafe's lemon tea even once? Why not order a plain lemon tea first, taste it to judge if it's sweet enough or not. If it's not, it's not too late to ask for the extra sugar. 

 

 

When it comes to audio, especially the first relatively good pair of headphones, how are you supposed to know what you might be missing if you never try?

 

 

That's the best way, to try them before you buy them. That's why I encouraged people to find an audio store like this one: http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/147249-candy-store-for-audio-manias/ or go to events like:  I think they got canjam or something in the states?

 

Unfortunately due to many reasons, not everybody can go to stores or events like that. If that's the case, then it's up to them whether they want to gamble on blindly purchasing an amp without knowing whether or not they'd need them, or in other word, will the amp be a redundant purchase or not. I'd advise against it, but that's me. 

 

 

Better to have it and not need it than

 

Systematically speaking:

 

Have it and not need it:

 

- wallet is $100 lighter

- got a redundant device that does something that's not perceivable => the story with my older brother

- best thing to do is to sell it to salvage a portion of the purchase money, taking a price hit of $10-$30 => providing it's purchased from a place with no 100% refund policy

 

Need it and not have it:

 

- Just get one, after you're sure you'd need one. Refer to SSL and others' posts about under-powered amp to determine if one is needed or not

 

This is just my point of view, and what I'd advise people to do. What they actually do, isn't my concern. It's not my money they're spending after all. Like said before, 'I'm buying a $1000 amp for my $10 headphone' => I'd advise against it, but if you wanna do it anyway, then knock yourself out....

[Oktyabr]

Now your just being purposely obtuse, when I know you know better (I've read all your reviews! )

 

 

 

They already do just that. Examples:

What is the output impedance of either jack?  Frequency response of either?  SNR?  Power output?  It's not your fault manufacturers of such devices are so vague...  

 

 

 

Your analogy based on your base theory is about the sport car. My analogy based on my base theory is when you go to a new cafe, and order a lemon tea with extra sugar. Why'd you want extra sugar? Do you already know that it's not sweet enough for your tongue, considering you haven't tried this cafe's lemon tea even once? Why not order a plain lemon tea first, taste it to judge if it's sweet enough or not. If it's not, it's not too late to ask for the extra sugar. 

A cup of tea in a cafe does not work as an analogy because 1) people don't usually save up for months to buy one, 2) extra sugar is usually free,  3) extra sugar only takes moments to request and add to the beverage if it's not sweet enough, 4) how sweet a tea is is purely subjective and different people will have different tastes.  A poor headphone jack is measurably and mathematically inferior to the better one, no matter who uses it.

 

 

 

it's up to them whether they want to gamble on blindly purchasing an amp without knowing whether or not they'd need them

Using a motherboard output is as "blindly" gambling as it gets.  That's why I don't recommend it for most first time buyers above the typical price point.  Further, if you can't find the specifications (and even better, tested measurements) of such a device, I can't possibly recommend it, no matter how much subjective love it has gotten from reviewers, for the exact same reason.

 

 

Have it and not need it:

 

- wallet is $100 lighter

- got a redundant device that does something that's not perceivable => the story with my older brother

- best thing to do is to sell it to salvage a portion of the purchase money, taking a price hit of $10-$30 => providing it's purchased from a place with no 100% refund policy

-No, wallet is several hundred dollars lighter.  You just bought headphones too.  Your example of buying a $1000 amplifier for a $10 pair of headphones is not realistic.  A $100 amplifier for a $300 pair of headphones makes much more sense.
-The important point is that your brother got to try the headphones with an amp and preferred his cellphone.  This says nothing of a motherboard headphone jack being the only device ever tried...  Further, cellphones are at least comparable:  http://www.gsmarena.com/gsmarena_lab_tests-review-751p4.php
- If you are worried about taking a $10-30 price hit because you think your unspecified motherboard sound chip is similarly capable, why not just keep it?  You are saying that having a second device on hand that you can plug your very expensive headphones into, that provides a "redundant" capability, has no value.  No value?  

 

[Oktyabr]

For those with a limited budget, no way to try headphones (and accessories) first, I would simply say "Some headphones are more difficult to drive than others and may require a better source of amplification than what your motherboard manufacturer has provided to give you it's best performance.  Please budget with this in mind."  Simple.  And honest.

[creatip123]

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