Uber car service is playing dirty with rival Lyft.

[nicehat]

 

 

A scandal is a brewin

 

A little background first:

Uber and Lyft are booth peer-to-peer ride sharing services that connect people needing a ride to drivers from respected companies driving around the city. Each car is clearly marked and all transactions are handled through the android/iOS app (including tips) based on distances calculated by GPS. Taking an Uber or Lyft car usually saves the average traveller about 30% over conventional taxis. Lyft taxis are distinguised by pink furry mustaches (like seen above) while Uber cars are usually all black taxis, SUVs or luxury cars 

 

A broken story by CNNMoney reports that Uber employees have reportedly ordered more than 5000 rides with rival Lyft only to cancel them. Two people CNN cited had this to say:

 

“One Lyft passenger, identified by seven different Lyft drivers as an Uber recruiter, canceled 300 rides from May 26 to June 10. That user’s phone number was tied to 21 other accounts, for a total of 1,524 canceled rides … Another Uber recruiter created 14 different accounts responsible for 680 cancellations.”

 

Not only that, but when the Lyft rides arrived, the unscrupulous recruiters then attempted to lure the drivers to Uber with a sales pitch. 

 

For Uber's part, they let TechCrunch know that Lyft drivers and staff had done far far worse: Ordering and then cancelling a whooping 13,000 rides! Lyft says that Uber has been making over 5560 fake requests over the last ten months. They maintain that Uber affiliated people have been doing this about 6 times per day in each market that Lyft operates in. 

 

Uber CEO, Travis Kalanick on its twitter had this to say 

 

@jasonfried @aarongraves @dhh1 the point is drivers deserve to have options & they are independt & shouldn’t be restricted from other oppty’s

— travis kalanick (@travisk) August 26, 2014

 

 

Corporate kidnapping & sabotage or fair play? In any case its dirty (especially since Uber dwarfs Lyft in pretty much every market). In any case, the driver is the guy that gets screwed in the end for gas and time

 

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/11/technology/uber-fake-ride-requests-lyft/

http://techcrunch.com/2014/08/12/uber-lyft-slap-fight/

[Askew]

LOL brilliant what bastards!

[techswede]

Completely unrelated to the topic..

Where can i get one of those mustaches? It'd look great on my benz

[declan2710]

Completely unrelated to the topic..

Where can i get one of those mustaches? It'd look great on my benz

 

http://www.carstache.com/

[dalekphalm]

Interesting? Not sure this is necessarily tech news though. If true, there should be an investigation for anti-competitive behaviour for BOTH companies. Just because Uber might be guilty, does not mean that Lyft is innocent as well.

 

@nicehat I might suggest you adding an explanation to your OP as to what exactly Lyft and Uber are. Most of us (especially where these companies don't operate) probably don't know who these companies are or what they do. I've never even heard of them before.

[nicehat]

Interesting? Not sure this is necessarily tech news though. If true, there should be an investigation for anti-competitive behaviour for BOTH companies. Just because Uber might be guilty, does not mean that Lyft is innocent as well.

 

@nicehat I might suggest you adding an explanation to your OP as to what exactly Lyft and Uber are. Most of us (especially where these companies don't operate) probably don't know who these companies are or what they do. I've never even heard of them before.

 

Right didnt think about that. Well both "taxi" services are primarily hailed through smart phones, with all transactions handled through the respective app (including tip). Thats my rationale for putting it in tech news anyway. 

[techswede]

http://www.carstache.com/

Aaaw your first official post  :wub:

Damn it.. Now i can't choose.. There are so many good ones

[dalekphalm]

Right didnt think about that. Well both "taxi" services are primarily hailed through smart phones, with all transactions handled through the respective app (including tip). Thats my rationale for putting it in tech news anyway. 

Ok well that's fair enough then. I think by providing that info, it'll be adequate to stay in Tech News. Still, shitty corporate behaviour is shitty  :angry:

[IdeaStormer]

All companies do this with competitors just this time instead of a mail order or phone order its a app order, what's the big deal?

[dalekphalm]

All companies do this with competitors just this time instead of a mail order or phone order its a app order, what's the big deal?

Okay so imagine this scenario: You work as essentially a taxi driver. You provide your own car and pay for your own gas. Your biggest competitor constantly is calling you to locations and then cancelling at the last minute, thus wasting your gas and costing you money.

 

And they're doing it on purpose - repeatedly.

 

That's probably not even legal, and it's sure as hell shady/anti-competitive business practice.

 

Just because other companies to the same thing (which many do) doesn't make it okay.

[Builder]

All companies do this with competitors just this time instead of a mail order or phone order its a app order, what's the big deal?

It's really dirty. There's a few unwritten rules in Silicon Valley, the first of which is do everything to your competitor except being a blatant asshole. You can be a sneaky, conniving asshole, but this is becoming public and now it's a PR disaster.

[IdeaStormer]

Okay so imagine this scenario: You work as essentially a taxi driver. You provide your own car and pay for your own gas. Your biggest competitor constantly is calling you to locations and then cancelling at the last minute, thus wasting your gas and costing you money.

 

And they're doing it on purpose - repeatedly.

 

That's probably not even legal, and it's sure as hell shady/anti-competitive business practice.

 

Just because other companies to the same thing (which many do) doesn't make it okay.

 

 For example like owning an airline and a bunch of people reserve a seat and the day of no one pays or actually boards said flight? Why do you think there now exist cancellation fees? Basically its two new companies being short sighted and not having their rears protected because they feel they're so cool and tech savvy, yet haven't learned the rules of running such a business.

 

It's really dirty. There's a few unwritten rules in Silicon Valley, the first of which is do everything to your competitor except being a blatant asshole. You can be a sneaky, conniving asshole, but this is becoming public and now it's a PR disaster.

 

Yes its dirty, but officially its called a loop hole they left wide open for it to be exploited. Welcome to Business 101 and remember there is no bad news only news, each company is up in the headlines and some people are seeing how Uber is so cut throat that some investors will invest in them and not the gullible Lyft.

 

Its about who is still there in the end not how they got there, if you follow any successful company you will read how its done some shady things to get where they are. If you can find one that didn't then they probably are not very successful or aren't truly successful, remember fame is not success in business, its $$$$.

[martinrox1568]

This is the least of Uber's scandal. I'm surprised that not many people know about it, but Uber has a very dirty business model. Regular taxi drivers in the states purchase a sort of license, or medallion from their state. That license costs $20,000 if you buy it from your state. However, to prevent there being too many taxis, the states have stopped selling these licenses. That means that you can only buy them off other people for $500,000, and yes thats not a typo. So nowadays, to become a taxi driver, your plan is to get a loan for one of these, and hope that once you retire, that medallion or license costs $700,000. And up until now, it has been a safe investment. But now, anyone can become a taxi driver without that medallion thanks to apps like Uber, and people that were ready to retire with a healthy amount of money are probably going to be unable to retire at all in a few years. Its a shame really. If you are more interested, google it, I think times had a post about it.

[nicehat]

So nowadays, to become a taxi driver, your plan is to get a loan for one of these, and hope that once you retire, that medallion or license costs $700,000. And up until now, it has been a safe investment. But now, anyone can become a taxi driver without that medallion thanks to apps like Uber, and people that were ready to retire with a healthy amount of money are probably going to be unable to retire at all in a few years. Its a shame really. If you are more interested, google it, I think times had a post about it.

 

It is sad I agree, but its how stuff progresses. I mean people were saying the same thing in the late 1800's with railroads, until cars and highways came along. When progress happens, something's gotta go away. But I agree, it sucks for those that paid all that money for a medallion 

[martinrox1568]

It is sad I agree, but its how stuff progresses. I mean people were saying the same thing in the late 1800's with railroads, until cars and highways came along. When progress happens, something's gotta go away. But I agree, it sucks for those that paid all that money for a medallion 

Yea I totally understand and I don't blame Uber or lyft at all for this. If I had the idea, I probably would have done the same thing. I just don't know who to blame, maybe New York for letting those medallions sell for that much.

[IdeaStormer]

Still don't see why everyone is all bent, the loopholes for Uber and Lyft are there for them to take advantage of, just look at YouTube, no YouTuber is paying for the same broadcasting licenses as a TV channel is so you all hate them and think they are dirty people as well then?

[nicehat]

Still don't see why everyone is all bent, the loopholes for Uber and Lyft are there for them to take advantage of, just look at YouTube, no YouTuber is paying for the same broadcasting licenses as a TV channel is so you all hate them and think they are dirty people as well then?

 

Because no one gets hurt (Its hard to empathize with corporations and their lost profits when we talk about youtube licenses).

 

In this case, the cabbie who's trying to make a livelihood, is a pawn in these games to one up one another. Its the cabbie that gets screwed. You know, the guy paying out of his own pocket for gas and mileage that takes commission from every transaction + tip? Its dirty because its an underhanded way to compete that also screws over innocent bystanders

[IdeaStormer]

Because no one gets hurt (Its hard to empathize with corporations and their lost profits when we talk about youtube licenses).

 

In this case, the cabbie who's trying to make a livelihood, is a pawn in these games to one up one another. Its the cabbie that gets screwed. You know, the guy paying out of his own pocket for gas and mileage that takes commission from every transaction + tip? Its dirty because its an underhanded way to compete that also screws over innocent bystanders

 

I see no difference big or small as all companies started small and had to pay for those fee's. Then there's the whole cab companies who actually front the taxi fee for the drivers, I'm sure you've heard of the Yellow Taxi Company. Then, you still have the guy outside of an official taxi or Uber or Lyft who does rounds at the air port and will attempt to give people rides for a fee outside all the above rules (if you've flown much you would/will of encountered them), where's the outrage to them?

[dalekphalm]

I see no difference big or small as all companies started small and had to pay for those fee's. Then there's the whole cab companies who actually front the taxi fee for the drivers, I'm sure you've heard of the Yellow Taxi Company. Then, you still have the guy outside of an official taxi or Uber or Lyft who does rounds at the air port and will attempt to give people rides for a fee outside all the above rules (if you've flown much you would/will of encountered them), where's the outrage to them?

I feel like you're very much confusing multiple issues here.

 

First, there is a legislation issue: Unlicensed "Taxi" drivers, such as Lyft, Uber, and the random airport fellows you're describing. They should ALL get cracked down on and have to pay the necessary license fee. That fee is there to (in theory) ensure that the Taxi driver is adhering to all safety and regulatory laws surrounding taxi driving. This also includes making sure that when you hail down a Lyft car (whether via an app or not makes no difference here) that they are operating a safe vehicle and it is safe to use them as a service.

 

Second, there's the issue of underhanded business practices. I'm fairly sure that - if proven guilty - what they are doing is illegal under the various anti-competitive business practices laws. Obviously an actual law expert would be needed to confirm this.

 

Just because some people are breaking the law (or circumventing it) with issue number one, does not take away the very unethical actions of issue number two. Yes any company will try and get a leg up on their competition. This is the exact reason why we have regulations for businesses to follow - to ensure that they are playing on as level a playing field as can be made. If there is a problem with the laws, then lets address that, rather then saying "Oh they break the law in some other way anyway so who gives a fuck?".

 

I'll tell you who gives a fuck: The driver of the Uber car who is stiffed with the gas bill of a wasted call because an employee from Lyft essentially pranked him.

[dalekphalm]

 

 For example like owning an airline and a bunch of people reserve a seat and the day of no one pays or actually boards said flight? Why do you think there now exist cancellation fees? Basically its two new companies being short sighted and not having their rears protected because they feel they're so cool and tech savvy, yet haven't learned the rules of running such a business.

Big difference. First, Airlines are prepaid, and do have cancellation fees - as you mentioned - to specifically combat lost sales due to last minute cancellations.

 

But you can't really have a prepaid service - at least not fully - with the kind of service they are running. It's all very last minute. Regulated taxi drivers don't generally have this issue, and their service is identical, save that you're using an app to flag down a Lyft driver, rather then calling the taxi company or flagging them down.

 

And no, they likely haven't learned all the rules yet, because this type of service in this exact manner (using an app) is so very new. However, the issue here isn't random people changing their minds at the last minute - it's competitors actively and maliciously placing false calls. This SHOULD be illegal, and if proven true, likely is under business regulation (And if I'm wrong and it's not illegal - then it should be).

 

Of course the icing on the cake is that there are allegations that BOTH Lyft and Uber are doing the same damn thing to each other. In any case, they should both stop or face legal repercussions.

[IdeaStormer]

I feel like you're very much confusing multiple issues here.

 

First, there is a legislation issue: Unlicensed "Taxi" drivers, such as Lyft, Uber, and the random airport fellows you're describing. They should ALL get cracked down on and have to pay the necessary license fee. That fee is there to (in theory) ensure that the Taxi driver is adhering to all safety and regulatory laws surrounding taxi driving. This also includes making sure that when you hail down a Lyft car (whether via an app or not makes no difference here) that they are operating a safe vehicle and it is safe to use them as a service.

 

Second, there's the issue of underhanded business practices. I'm fairly sure that - if proven guilty - what they are doing is illegal under the various anti-competitive business practices laws. Obviously an actual law expert would be needed to confirm this.

 

Just because some people are breaking the law (or circumventing it) with issue number one, does not take away the very unethical actions of issue number two. Yes any company will try and get a leg up on their competition. This is the exact reason why we have regulations for businesses to follow - to ensure that they are playing on as level a playing field as can be made. If there is a problem with the laws, then lets address that, rather then saying "Oh they break the law in some other way anyway so who gives a fuck?".

 

I'll tell you who gives a fuck: The driver of the Uber car who is stiffed with the gas bill of a wasted call because an employee from Lyft essentially pranked him.

 

 

Big difference. First, Airlines are prepaid, and do have cancellation fees - as you mentioned - to specifically combat lost sales due to last minute cancellations.

 

But you can't really have a prepaid service - at least not fully - with the kind of service they are running. It's all very last minute. Regulated taxi drivers don't generally have this issue, and their service is identical, save that you're using an app to flag down a Lyft driver, rather then calling the taxi company or flagging them down.

 

And no, they likely haven't learned all the rules yet, because this type of service in this exact manner (using an app) is so very new. However, the issue here isn't random people changing their minds at the last minute - it's competitors actively and maliciously placing false calls. This SHOULD be illegal, and if proven true, likely is under business regulation (And if I'm wrong and it's not illegal - then it should be).

 

Of course the icing on the cake is that there are allegations that BOTH Lyft and Uber are doing the same damn thing to each other. In any case, they should both stop or face legal repercussions.

 

The thread is getting a bit convoluted, I agree.

 

It started with the prank of Uber screwing the Lyft drivers by scheduling rides with no actual ride and then trying to get them to switch teams so to speak (or vice versa).

 

Now, I know everyone all of a sudden (in this thread) is backing the supposed poor old fee paying Taxi driver who is now sitting camped out by his favorite spot with no rides/fee's in sight. Where the real losers are the cab companies not the lone ranger taxi driver who is still stalking the popular corners for rides/fee's because the cab companies are the ones sending out those army of taxi's and paying the supposed fee's for them to be out there and providing the taxi's and paying for the gas and other expenditures while they are out sans a fee paying rider.

 

Back to my airline analogy, my example was how the airlines now have those cancellation fee's due people jacking them around, before it was just like this Uber vs Lyft fight, the other airlines would do the same thing that's why they now protect themselves from that kind of BS making sure people who request a flight pay and if they don't cancel within a reasonable time they still pay. Uber and Lyft will have a similar cancellation fee soon enough due to this BS is going on, its just bad planning by the newbie's to prevent those type of business shenanigans from happening.  I mean wasn't it Linus himself telling everyone to sign up for Logan's car giveaway the other day to see if it would kill his server, is that OK? If the server had crashed who would of paid Logan to get the server backup? Linus? Nope. Even if fun and games someone has to pay for those things and in the world one hopes for fair play but in reality there is no such thing, sure there's hiding that you're not doing that by having a 3rd party do it to keep your (some companies) hands clean but it happens.

 

In closing there is nothing illegal going on as there is no law that I know of that keeps you from calling or texting a company who offers a service and you ask for it and then don't do it, sure there's cancellation fee's but there's nothing keeping you from canceling your credit card before the cancellation fee goes through now is there.

[dalekphalm]

The thread is getting a bit convoluted, I agree.

 

It started with the prank of Uber screwing the Lyft drivers by scheduling rides with no actual ride and then trying to get them to switch teams so to speak (or vice versa).

 

Now, I know everyone all of a sudden (in this thread) is backing the supposed poor old fee paying Taxi driver who is now sitting camped out by his favorite spot with no rides/fee's in sight. Where the real losers are the cab companies not the lone ranger taxi driver who is still stalking the popular corners for rides/fee's because the cab companies are the ones sending out those army of taxi's and paying the supposed fee's for them to be out there and providing the taxi's and paying for the gas and other expenditures while they are out sans a fee paying rider.

 

Back to my airline analogy, my example was how the airlines now have those cancellation fee's due people jacking them around, before it was just like this Uber vs Lyft fight, the other airlines would do the same thing that's why they now protect themselves from that kind of BS making sure people who request a flight pay and if they don't cancel within a reasonable time they still pay. Uber and Lyft will have a similar cancellation fee soon enough due to this BS is going on, its just bad planning by the newbie's to prevent those type of business shenanigans from happening.  I mean wasn't it Linus himself telling everyone to sign up for Logan's car giveaway the other day to see if it would kill his server, is that OK? If the server had crashed who would of paid Logan to get the server backup? Linus? Nope. Even if fun and games someone has to pay for those things and in the world one hopes for fair play but in reality there is no such thing, sure there's hiding that you're not doing that by having a 3rd party do it to keep your (some companies) hands clean but it happens.

 

In closing there is nothing illegal going on as there is no law that I know of that keeps you from calling or texting a company who offers a service and you ask for it and then don't do it, sure there's cancellation fee's but there's nothing keeping you from canceling your credit card before the cancellation fee goes through now is there.

For the most part, I 100% agree with what you're saying.

 

However, in your last paragraph, about there being no laws to prevent that sort of thing. You're sorta right. As a consumer, there is no law for us cancelling something at the last minute. We have consumer protection rights and freedom to change our mind. But a business doesn't abide by the same rules as people. I was doing some searching, and couldn't find the exact law for USA (though I suspect they have something similar), but Australia has laws that specifically define what practices are acceptable between businesses:

http://www.accc.gov.au/business/anti-competitive-behaviour/unconscionable-conduct

 

In this case, unconscionable conduct would most likely cover this.

 

Unconscionable conduct does not have a precise legal definition as it is a concept that has been developed on a case-by-case basis by courts over time. Nevertheless, unconscionable conduct is generally accepted to mean conduct which should not be done in good conscience. Unconscionable conduct is more than simply unfair or harsh – it must have an element of bad conscience.

Now because each scenario is more or less unique, it's generally a case-by-case in court that determines if it counts. I would say this counts, personally. I would actually say that given rumours, both Uber and Lyft are likely guilty of this.

 

Now, I definitely think both companies need to grow the fuck up and put policies in place to prevent this from harming them, such as a $25 down-payment made via the app, or cancellation fees as you mentioned that airlines use. But the law should still protect a business from a competitor acting unethically that is interfering with their own business and costing them money.

[IdeaStormer]

Here's an interesting read with a similar comparison. Looks like I wasn't so far off base or at least someone else thinks similarly:

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/29/uber_and_lyft_there_is_no_magic_to_the_sharing_economy/?page=1