Nat King Cole vs Frank Sinatra

[Hidden Orange]

I didn't know that was a thing. On a side note I'm glad posts here don't count. I'm starting to regret posting this.

It's a thing; I found out the hard way while posting remixes and covers in "What are your favorite music covers?"

[P e r s e p h o n e]

It's a thing; I found out the hard way while posting remixes and covers in "What are your favorite music covers?"

Well I think this was unsuccessful in my original question poised at the preference between The Chairman and Nat King Kole. That aside I've move on to this. http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/167996-history-lesson-to-the-tune-of-tetris/

[Hidden Orange]

Well I think this was unsuccessful in my original question poised at the preference between The Chairman and Nat King Kole. That aside I've move on to this. http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/167996-history-lesson-to-the-tune-of-tetris/

It's the Off-Topic section what'd you expect - Ooh! Rabbits!

[Albatross]

@Laforet

 

Good options to pick from so far! I actually found a few new artists to try, so thanks!

 

Are you going to add John Coltrane (he worked with "Duke Ellington" before) or Miles Davis? They are great musicians, and they fit, because they are jazz.

 

(though an "other" option would be great too. )

 

 

Really?   A history lesson for you:  back in the 30's and 40's and in fact even as recently as the 60's and 70's, large parts of the music industry in America where separated into blacks and whites They did this because a considerable portion of people would not buy or listen to music if the artist was black.   Famous artists like little richard had their music stolen from them and reproduced by white bands to play on white radio stations because the record label knew there was a market that they could not reach simply because little richard was black.  If you don't believe me watch the movie it's not exactly what happened but the premise is correct and the overall racism of the times is portrayed very well.

 

As far as Nat King cole goes, if you had read my post, you'd know that I think him and Sinatra are equally as good.  But if you add to Nat king cole's career all the lost sales and promotions that would have occurred had he been white and I believe Sinatra may have been somewhat overlooked.    

 

It is not the race card, I did not vote for him because he was black, I voted for him because I believe he was just as good as Sinatra but handicapped by the racism of the time.  And I would thank you to not put words in my mouth but that if you don't understand what I am trying to say then you ask instead.

 

Did you really just blow up over something that was never even argued or even mentioned? :huh: I only said he had white fans and white friends. To deny that there were white fans would be incredibly stupid, but sure, 100% of white people back in the 50-60s were entirely racist. I'm sure that is accurate....

 

Perhaps you should reword your original post then, because that's not how it came off. Your little comment "if he was white we'd ALL say "frank who?" was in the wrong tense you apparently meant to be in--assuming I believe you were referring to the 50-60s at this point (which context and tense doesn't fit still).  Because as it is now, the context clearly suggests that we all, the people within this thread, would have voted for Cole instead of Frank if he had been white--suggesting that WE, the voters, are racist because we voted for Frank simply because he happened to be  white.

 

Let's just focus on the music and the people behind it, without bringing up racism or race.

[P e r s e p h o n e]

It's the Off-Topic section what'd you expect - Ooh! Rabbits!

I'll chime in on that.

 

[P e r s e p h o n e]

@Laforet

 

Good options to pick from so far! I actually found a few new artists to try, so thanks!

 

Are you going to add John Coltrane or Miles Davis? They are great musicians, and they fit, because they are jazz.

 

(though an "other" option would be great too. )

 

I'll put an other option in. I would add more but I just can't with how chaotic it got so quickly.

[Albatross]

I'll put an other option in. I would add more but I just can't with how chaotic it got so quickly.

 

Yea, a lot of people had suggestions to make. :lol:  At this point, an "other" option will probably be for the best anyway. It could also provide an "answer" for those who believe comparing these artists to each other is wrong or whatnot. 

 

Though I suggest anyone reading this to try out John Coltrane either way. He's amazing! The Trane will blow you away!

[P e r s e p h o n e]

Yea, a lot of people had suggestions to make. :lol:  At this point, an "other" option will probably be for the best anyway. It could also provide an "answer" for those who believe comparing these artists to each other is wrong or whatnot. 

 

Though I suggest anyone reading this to try out John Coltrane either way. He's amazing! The Trane will blow you away!

Well I've purged the list and kept the videos Hidden Orange mentioned in a spoiler. 

[Sammael]

[mr moose]

 

Did you really just blow up over something that was never even argued or even mentioned? :huh: I only said he had white fans and white friends.

 

No, you accused me of voting for him because he was black, you accuse me of not knowing anything about music and you posted the derisory facepalm picture.   All of which clearly indicate you have no idea about music history in America, because if you did you would have realised just how benign my post was.

 

I happen to love music and I also happen to have a good knowledge of musical history, What I said was not racist, I did not pull the "race card" as you so foolishly put it.  I merely made an observation based on historical facts.

[Albatross]

Frank and Cole are tied.    I find it odd with Louis Armstrong in the poll, because in my experience, he's beloved more than Frank and Cole in this day and age. 

 

@Laforet

 

I see the new poll options! Thanks for adding them! Also, definitely a good idea spoiler tagging the rest of the videos. It would have slowed this thread down a lot.

 

No, you accused me of voting for him because he was black, you accuse me of not knowing anything about music and you posted the derisory facepalm picture.   All of which clearly indicate you have no idea about music history in America, because if you did you would have realised just how benign my post was.

 

I happen to love music and I also happen to have a good knowledge of musical history, What I said was not racist, I did not pull the "race card" as you so foolishly put it.  I merely made an observation based on historical facts.

 

Oh, okay, if that makes you feel better then go for it.

 

Next time you want to talk about racial problems of the past, don't use the wrong tense and say "we'd all" as in referring to the people in this.

[mr moose]

Frank and Cole are tied.    I find it odd with Louis Armstrong in the poll, because in my experience, he's beloved more than Frank and Cole in this day and age. 

 

@Laforet

 

I see the new poll options! Thanks for adding them! Also, definitely a good idea spoiler tagging the rest of the videos. It would have slowed this thread down a lot.

 

 

Oh, okay, if that makes you feel better then go for it.

 

Next time you want to talk about racial problems of the past, don't use the wrong tense and say "we'd all" as in referring to the people in this.

 

English not your first language?   "we'd all" is the correct tense when referring to the speculated outcome of a variant in an historical event.

[Albatross]

English not your first language?   "we'd all" is the correct tense when referring to the speculated outcome of a variant in an historical event.

 

Nope, you caught me, my native tongue is Sumerian.

 

Maybe if your context fit with what you were saying it, which was "apparently" referring to the past, you would have had the right tense in mind with what you were "really" saying. Yet you expect the readers of this forum to see this:

 

 

Nah mate, those two are like strangers in the night.

 

How can you choose between two greats like that?  It's like choosing the between old Jamaican and rum and raisin chocolate, either way what you get is smooth and delicious.

 

P.S I voted for Nat King Cole because I believe that if he had of been white we would all be saying "frank who?"

 

And think, "Oh, obviously he's referring to the people of the 50-60s, not us." You didn't provide anything to make people think you were only referring to the past beyond the "if he had been white". Yet, with a comment that lacked any substantial detail to your claims of its original context and tense, I was supposed to just know you were referring to the past. :rolleyes:

[mr moose]

Nope, you caught me, my native tongue is Sumerian.

 

Maybe if your context fit with what you were saying it, which was "apparently" referring to the past, you would have had the right tense in mind with what you were "really" saying. Yet you expect the readers of this forum to see this:

 

 

 

And think, "Oh, obviously he's referring to the people of the 50-60s, not us." You didn't provide anything to make people think you were only referring to the past beyond the "if he had been white". Yet, with a comment that lacked any substantial detail to your claims of its original context and tense, I was supposed to just know you were referring to the past. :rolleyes:

 

Nat King Cole died in 1965, how on earth would it be possible for people right now to effect his career and his popularity as compared with Sinatra (who's career didn't start till '58)?

I think you're reading way to deep into this,

 

 

P.S I voted for Nat King Cole because I believe that if he had of been white we would all be saying "frank who?"

 

Had indicates an event or condition of the past that could have been different.

 

verb

past tense: had; past participle: had

1. 1.

   used with a past participle to form the perfect, pluperfect, and future perfect tenses, and the conditional mood.

   "I have finished"

 

 

[Albatross]

Frank's in the lead now? I sort of expected to see more votes for "other" or even "everyone", however, I guess it is a good thing so many people know of these artistis. :lol:

 

 

Nat King Cole died in 1965, how on earth would it be possible for people right now to effect his career and his popularity as compared with Sinatra (who's career didn't start till '58)?

I think you're reading way to deep into this,

 

Had indicates an event or condition of the past that could have been different.

 

 

 

This is getting tiring, and way off topic now. <_<  Here you go pal, this is my last comment on the issue. Take it as you please:

 

 

Did you even read my post?

 

The only past tense you had was what belonged to "had", anything beyond "if he had been white" is not past tense and is not referring to the past—thus where my comment stems from. You said if he had been white (yes, I know, past tense here and is not the "problem" I'm referring to) WE'D ALL (no longer talking about some past event or the like as you used Present participle  words like "saying" etc etc) would have (basically) voted for for him, not Frank, suggesting that we didn't vote on talent but race. So let me clear this up; your only indication of past tense was referring only to if he had been white, anything beyond was not in past tense as you were referring to us, at this time. Let me say it once again; the only indication you had made about the past was if Cole had been born white—nothing else indicated or referred to the past—we would, at this time, have made a different decision in our voting or thoughts on the artists themselves.

 

I'm reading into what you said as exactly as you said it (perhaps, if anything, a fault of my Linguistic and English studies). And yet I am supposed to believe your BS about your comment referring to the past only when your usage of plural pronouns was not conforming to your claims? :huh:

 

The pronoun "we" is restricted to specific contexts, and which said context that you say it meant was not provided. If you had been talking about the past and racial issues, or how it effected Nat King Cole's career any time before this comment your supposed context, your "meaning", would have been clear and as you said it was. But you didn't and it wasn't. Instead you went on to explain "history" that was never argued in the first place to somehow insist that you were, in fact, referring only to the past with the entirety of your comment.

 

Now I could take what you just provided to somehow "enlighten" me upon the definition of "had" and show you just how your meaning doesn't match up to your claims, but I won't because I'm certain that if you really look at your comment, you will see it yourself (if  the above did not show you and you would still like to know, it is basically; if the condition of being white had been met in the past, the present would have changed and we would be voting for him because he was white). So this post should have been enough to explain exactly what is wrong with your comment and claims, but if it makes this BS stop, I concede, as you obviously will not ever understand my point about the inconsistencies of your "apparent" meaning.

 

 

 

[mr moose]

Frank's in the lead now? I sort of expected to see more votes for "other" or even "everyone", however, I guess it is a good thing so many people know of these artistis. :lol:

 

 

This is getting tiring, and way off topic now. <_<  Here you go pal, this is my last comment on the issue. Take it as you please:

 

 

Did you even read my post?

 

The only past tense you had was what belonged to "had", anything beyond "if he had been white" is not past tense and is not referring to the past—thus where my comment stems from. You said if he had been white (yes, I know, past tense here and is not the "problem" I'm referring to) WE'D ALL (no longer talking about some past event or the like as you used Present participle  words like "saying" etc etc) would have (basically) voted for for him, not Frank, suggesting that we didn't vote on talent but race. So let me clear this up; your only indication of past tense was referring only to if he had been white, anything beyond was not in past tense as you were referring to us, at this time. Let me say it once again; the only indication you had made about the past was if Cole had been born white—nothing else indicated or referred to the past—we would, at this time, have made a different decision in our voting or thoughts on the artists themselves.

 

I'm reading into what you said as exactly as you said it (perhaps, if anything, a fault of my Linguistic and English studies). And yet I am supposed to believe your BS about your comment referring to the past only when your usage of plural pronouns was not conforming to your claims? :huh:

 

The pronoun "we" is restricted to specific contexts, and which said context that you say it meant was not provided. If you had been talking about the past and racial issues, or how it effected Nat King Cole's career any time before this comment your supposed context, your "meaning", would have been clear and as you said it was. But you didn't and it wasn't. Instead you went on to explain "history" that was never argued in the first place to somehow insist that you were, in fact, referring only to the past with the entirety of your comment.

 

Now I could take what you just provided to somehow "enlighten" me upon the definition of "had" and show you just how your meaning doesn't match up to your claims, but I won't because I'm certain that if you really look at your comment, you will see it yourself (if  the above did not show you and you would still like to know, it is basically; if the condition of being white had been met in the past, the present would have changed and we would be voting for him because he was white). So this post should have been enough to explain exactly what is wrong with your comment and claims, but if it makes this BS stop, I concede, as you obviously will not ever understand my point about the inconsistencies of your "apparent" meaning.

 

 

I'm not interested in a wall of text. It is simple, everyone else gets it and I'm sorry you don't.

[Albatross]

I'm not interested in a wall of text. It is simple, everyone else gets it and I'm sorry you don't.

 

Oh dear. Of course you aren't interested in reading and understanding, I already knew that, that is why I said take it as you please.

 

Good luck with that!

[P e r s e p h o n e]

Oh dear. Of course you aren't interested in reading and understanding, I already knew that, that is why I said take it as you please.

 

Good luck with that!

I'm not interested in a wall of text. It is simple, everyone else gets it and I'm sorry you don't.

 

As an outside observer of your discussion I see the point of both of your arguments. In my opinion it was true back then credit for the development of music was stolen from the African American crowd. However now it shouldn't be a matter of paying respects to who did it first or a matter of race but rather a matter of sheer talent.

[Misanthrope]

Not too big on Jazz singers, I prefer horn players.

[mr moose]

 

As an outside observer of your discussion I see the point of both of your arguments. In my opinion it was true back then credit for the development of music was stolen from the African American crowd. However now it shouldn't be a matter of paying respects to who did it first or a matter of race but rather a matter of sheer talent.

 

I like what you're saying, my way of paying respects is to acknowledge how much greater an entertainer might have been had they not been discriminated against.  If that makes sense.

[P e r s e p h o n e]

I like what you're saying, my way of paying respects is to acknowledge how much greater an entertainer might have been had they not been discriminated against.  If that makes sense.

It does, and I totally understand why, it was terrible that their talent has been suppressed by discrimination. But I also get Albatross in that now a days it really shouldn't matter, at least for the most part, and that we've moved passed this issue. Today everyone can be judged for their talent rather than their color. Of course that's not say racial issues are over for certain parts of the world and that though it exists in little doses it is still apparent in modern wealthy nations in comparison to what it was before.

[mr moose]

It does, and I totally understand why, it was terrible that their talent has been suppressed by discrimination. But I also get Albatross in that now a days it really shouldn't matter, at least for the most part, and that we've moved passed this issue where everyone can be judged for their talent rather than their color. 

 

And he's right, these days it doesn't matter so much (unless you live in certain parts of a america) we have moved past it.  Not too many people question the race of an entertainer anymore.   

[Albatross]

Not too big on Jazz singers, I prefer horn players.

 

Heretic!

 

You might not have heard a good jazz song though, so maybe giving some of the artists mentioned here a chance might change your opinion?

[Misanthrope]

Heretic!

 

You might not have heard a good jazz song though, so maybe giving some of the artists mentioned here a chance might change your opinion?

 

It's not that I don't have sensibility for it, I just find lyrics distracting for this stuff, I like tunes like this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqVT5I3jprU

[P e r s e p h o n e]

It's not that I don't have sensibility for it, I just find lyrics distracting for this stuff, I like tunes like this:

 

*snip*

I wish this was in Fallout New Vegas.