Anti Competitive Practices with contractors/electricians/plumbers/etc

[wasab]

8 hours ago, Donut417 said:

A few years back the stat was 800K of skilled trades jobs in Michigan will go unfilled. Skilled trades died in Michigan when Bill Clinton signed NAFTA in to law and we normalized trade with China. Because that sucking sound you heard was American Jobs going over seas. As a result our parents told us that the trades were not good jobs. Due to them mostly being tied to the auto industry and wages falling. So we were told go to school. Which has resulted in less people going in to the trades and massive amounts of student loan debt. Both Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs)  and Mike Holmes (Canadian Contractor) have been talking about the shortages for literal years.

it is actually because of how US gov is subsidizing and guaranteeing all federal student loans. it is literally risk free investment for loan issuers to issue loans to 18 year old who has not even grasp the concept of a credit card yet. All those investors at wallstreets also snatch up those student loans backed securities as investments. anyone can take out any loans without any credit card history simply because uncle sam will pay it should anyone default. this means college is accessible to nearly everyone as long as they are going to public school and willing to take out huge loans for them, even if the things they study make absolutely no sense and are completely detached from the labor market. this creates 100000000%+ demand, way out pacing inflation and costs of nearly everything else, causing tuition to sky rocket and at the same time, causing many people to ignore trade. 

 

American auto industry was going out regardless. they simply could not compete with the Asian brands, from the likes of Toyatas. even if manufacturing did not go overseas, auto industry jobs would decline. 

[Donut417]

8 minutes ago, wasab said:

it is actually because of how US gov is subsidizing and guaranteeing all federal student loans. it is literally risk free investment for loan issuers to issue loans to 18 year old who has not even grasp the concept of a credit card yet. All those investors at wallstreets also snatch up those student loans backed securities as investments. anyone can take out any loans without any credit card history simply because uncle sam will pay it should anyone default. this means college is accessible to nearly everyone as long as they are going to public school and willing to take out huge loans for them, even if the things they study make absolutely no sense and are completely detached from the labor market. this creates 100000000%+ demand, way out pay inflation and costs of nearly everything else, causing tuition to sky rocket.

 

American auto industry was going out regardless. they simply could not compete with the Asian brands, from the likes of Toyatas. even if manufacturing did not go overseas, auto industry jobs would decline. 

Except you missed the point of the post. Because some skilled trade jobs were off shored and a lot of people lost their jobs, Skilled trade jobs became the jobs that people didnt want. My dad sat me down and told me not to go in to the trades period. Collage was the only way. When people piss and moan about how much work on your car or work on your house costs they dont understand that we are short on the people who can do these jobs and in some cases people in these jobs get screwed over. Not to mention with all the boomers retiring thats going to be less people in the trades. Prices will continue to go up.

[wasab]

8 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

 My dad sat me down and told me not to go in to the trades period. Collage was the only way. 

hm.... what year was this? pre 1990s, this indeed was true. people with bachelor degrees was less than 20% of the working population so the college-educated had a huge advantage and could pretty much be guaranteed to get a job regardless of whatever they studied, even if it was underwater basketweaving. nowadays, not anymore. it was common advice from the boomers and gen x/y because it was true for their time. 

 

the major mistmach between supply and demand of tradesman vs that of college degree holders did not appear until the recent decades. 

[Vilacom]

13 hours ago, wasab said:

dude, you are clearly complaining about being charged before work can even begin and then worry about not being able to reject the service and get your money back should they come up with a big number for the actual costs. plumbing is not lawyers' and doctors' office buddy. there is no free consultation. it is simply how things work because driving distance and time + inspection of your problem can easily take a huge chunk out of plumbers working day, only to leave him empty-handed at the end precisely because of a case like yours. they come over after hours driving, inspecting your problem for a couple of hours, then have you stiffing them by refusing their service and asking for a refund, then they drive home for another few hours and what do you know? It is 5pm+ and they missed their entire days pay. 

 

why would I want to read about Orwellian double think? I don't need to understand the mental gymnastics necessary to accept two contradicting facts simultaneously. i thought college is meant to be school of learning, not brainwashing double think that left you in debt, 4-10 years of opportunity costs, and with nothing to show for at the end. 

Oh dude, I can reject the service and get my money back regardless.  Consumer protection on AMEX cards is absolutely excellent and the charge was gone within an hour of the dispute when after nearly a week of waiting the manager couldn’t find five minutes to call me to address the situation.  

Now reading your response to me clearly reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit so I’ll try to make this really simple and clear.

There is no problem for them to inspect, I do not want them to drive out to my house and give me an exact price that will be the end all be all for the job.  All I wanted, literally the only thing, was the starting price.  When someone calls me for a portrait session they know what price the job starts at within 10 seconds of asking.  “Hi I’d like to do a portrait shoot” “Ok that starts at $150 for an hour studio shoot that will result in five edited photos being delivered to you within five days”

Holy shit look at that, I was able to provide every bit of information that I am looking for in my phone call to a plumber without spending hours doing it because its a standard service I offer that can cost a lot more than that depending on what that person wants to do, but now they have a starting point for a service I advertise and is the reason they called.

These plumbing companies advertising installing a garbage disposal as a service they do on their websites, its not a problem I have that they need to inspect for hours before they know what’s going on, its a completely optional quality of life upgrade to a kitchen that I am interested in potentially doing as long as its not outrageously expensive.  “Hi I’m looking to have a garbage disposal installed”. “Ok, assuming its a standard installation that starts at $700 plus tax and the cost of materials, you need to provide the disposal to be installed, do you know if you have an outlet under the sink to connect it to power?” 

Look at that, I’m not even a plumber and was able to do that without driving and evaluating for hours, burning my entire day doing so, and I know virtually nothing about plumbing.  I know that’s possible because that’s literally what happened when the guy showed up at my house, glanced at my sink, and told me it would be….$700 plus materials and tax because that’s what the cost for a new garbage disposal installation.  They just didn’t want to tell me that over the phone because why do that when you can get $160 for telling it to someone.  

You’re also making some WILD assumptions about travel time, the office for every place I called was within a 10 minute drive of my house.  Every single call does not result in four hours of travel plus a four hour evaluation.  

But seriously, find some reading material about what social constructs are and how they develop.  If for no other reason than maybe you wont sound quite so much like a right wing lunatic when you refer to something as “Orwellian”. If you’d like a YouTube video or two that are decent primers I can happily provide them. 

[Lurking]

4 hours ago, Vilacom said:

Oh dude, I can reject the service and get my money back regardless.  Consumer protection on AMEX cards is absolutely excellent and the charge was gone within an hour of the dispute when after nearly a week of waiting the manager couldn’t find five minutes to call me to address the situation.  

Now reading your response to me clearly reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit so I’ll try to make this really simple and clear.

There is no problem for them to inspect, I do not want them to drive out to my house and give me an exact price that will be the end all be all for the job.  All I wanted, literally the only thing, was the starting price.  When someone calls me for a portrait session they know what price the job starts at within 10 seconds of asking.  “Hi I’d like to do a portrait shoot” “Ok that starts at $150 for an hour studio shoot that will result in five edited photos being delivered to you within five days”

Holy shit look at that, I was able to provide every bit of information that I am looking for in my phone call to a plumber without spending hours doing it because its a standard service I offer that can cost a lot more than that depending on what that person wants to do, but now they have a starting point for a service I advertise and is the reason they called.

These plumbing companies advertising installing a garbage disposal as a service they do on their websites, its not a problem I have that they need to inspect for hours before they know what’s going on, its a completely optional quality of life upgrade to a kitchen that I am interested in potentially doing as long as its not outrageously expensive.  “Hi I’m looking to have a garbage disposal installed”. “Ok, assuming its a standard installation that starts at $700 plus tax and the cost of materials, you need to provide the disposal to be installed, do you know if you have an outlet under the sink to connect it to power?” 

Look at that, I’m not even a plumber and was able to do that without driving and evaluating for hours, burning my entire day doing so, and I know virtually nothing about plumbing.  I know that’s possible because that’s literally what happened when the guy showed up at my house, glanced at my sink, and told me it would be….$700 plus materials and tax because that’s what the cost for a new garbage disposal installation.  They just didn’t want to tell me that over the phone because why do that when you can get $160 for telling it to someone.  

You’re also making some WILD assumptions about travel time, the office for every place I called was within a 10 minute drive of my house.  Every single call does not result in four hours of travel plus a four hour evaluation.  

But seriously, find some reading material about what social constructs are and how they develop.  If for no other reason than maybe you wont sound quite so much like a right wing lunatic when you refer to something as “Orwellian”. If you’d like a YouTube video or two that are decent primers I can happily provide them. 

I do agree they should be able to say "if X, Y, and Z are in place it is $900 and any additional thing we need to do is $150/hour plus material".

 

But they probably had bad experience with people forgetting about the additional cost and then insisting on the base quote price.

 

Ultimately the market is what it is. I do commercial plumbing design and #1 complaint from every company and association is lack of apprentices, no replacement for Boomer retirements or any other usable help. If you are young and not the college type, but still have intelligence, you really should do an electrician or plumbing apprenticeship. You will make loads of cash (and that before work on the side) and will never be unemployed. Hard to make predictions about jobs and population, but SKILLED trades being in very short supply is a given (unless people learn to live without indoor plumbing). Your work can't be outdourced, and when the toilet doesn't work, the plumber at Tesla is more important than Elon Musk.

[wasab]

14 hours ago, Vilacom said:

There is no problem for them to inspect, I do not want them to drive out to my house and give me an exact price that will be the end all be all for the job.  All I wanted, literally the only thing, was the starting price.  When someone calls me for a portrait session they know what price the job starts at within 10 seconds of asking.  “Hi I’d like to do a portrait shoot” “Ok that starts at $150 for an hour studio shoot that will result in five edited photos being delivered to you within five days”

why? so you can compare different contractors and reject anything that is not the lowest? like I said, plumbing has no free consultations. they need to visit your homes to check. whats funny is the fact that the psychology behind your complaints are precisely 100% everything I posted previously. not my reading comprehension but your own stubbornness to admit it. 

 

14 hours ago, Vilacom said:

But seriously, find some reading material about what social constructs are and how they develop.  If for no other reason than maybe you wont sound quite so much like a right wing lunatic when you refer to something as “Orwellian”. If you’d like a YouTube video or two that are decent primers I can happily provide them. 

social constructs is propaganda. what saddens me is how little of critical thinking skills people have nowadays that you would eat this propaganda up  in schools without a 2nd thought. But then again, people who choose to take out 20K+ plus loans and waste 4 years of their working life to study gender studies arent exactly people with good common sense to begin with. FYI, I am economically left, socially conservative and politically anywhere in between. 

[Vilacom]

38 minutes ago, wasab said:

why? so you can compare different contractors and reject anything that is not the lowest? like I said, plumbing has no free consultations. they need to visit your homes to check. whats funny is the fact that the psychology behind your complaints are precisely 100% everything I posted previously. not my reading comprehension but your own stubbornness to admit it. 

 

social constructs is propaganda. what saddens me if how little of critical thinking skills people have nowadays that you would eat this propaganda up  in schools without a 2nd thought. 

Dude, seriously read what I've written.  I want them to give me a base price so I can make a decision as to whether or not there is any point in even having them evaluate the actual price.  I don't call a kitchen renovation contractor because I 100% know that I don't want to even consider a project that is going to be in excess of $40,000 at a minimum,  I don't walk onto a Porsche dealership because there is never going to be a situation where I would spend $100,000 on a car no matter how fantastic it might be.  If a garbage disposal starts at say under $1000 thats something I'd be willing to move forward with finding out what it would actually cost, since even at double or triple the cost because of an issue like wiring or needing to move something I could still reasonably afford that.  If its starting at $3000 then I just don't need a garbage disposal that badly.  You know, like say, basically every purchase you've ever made in your life?

But also yes, giving quotes and making them competitive is the entire point of getting quotes for a job, if you're not the cheapest then why?  Sell me yourself and tell me why YOU should be the one I trust with my home.  The reason those fees are actually there and they won't even hint at a price is because they don't want you shopping around and forcing them to compete with other companies for jobs like this one where by the time you get 2-3 quotes you will have lost any savings because you had the audacity to shop around for the best customer experience and value for your money.  If all I cared about was just the literal cheapest I could possibly get regardless of quality there are plenty of places to pick up workers who will happily do the job for a fraction of what an actual company will do it, I don't do that cause I actually want a quality job done, I just want to know if the job is even something I want to consider before I pay for(and waste both my and their time) with a full evaluation that isn't going to work out.  

You literally have no idea what a social construct is, and that's honestly borderline impressive.  You understand that social constructs are just a framework by which groups of people associate with various things right?  Like money is a social construct, government is as well, sports, corporations, property, scientific research, literally all social constructs or the result of one.  They have dictated virtually every single thing in your life including your lack of understanding about what a social construct is.  

You seem to associate it with...I guess exclusively gender identity?  Which you also clearly don't understand, but lord man, have some curiosity about how the world around you actually works.

Here, it's 25 minutes, and even if it won't change your mind about gender it'll at least start you to understanding how the world actually works.
 

 

[Vilacom]

30 minutes ago, wasab said:

why? so you can compare different contractors and reject anything that is not the lowest? like I said, plumbing has no free consultations. they need to visit your homes to check. whats funny is the fact that the psychology behind your complaints are precisely 100% everything I posted previously. not my reading comprehension but your own stubbornness to admit it. 

 

social constructs is propaganda. what saddens me is how little of critical thinking skills people have nowadays that you would eat this propaganda up  in schools without a 2nd thought. But then again, people who choose to take out 20K+ plus loans and waste 4 years of their working life to study gender studies arent exactly people with good common sense to begin with. FYI, I am economically left, socially conservative and politically anywhere in between. 

Also, just for the record...I don't know if you're actually serious about these idiot people who take out loans and waste their time for gender studies degrees...but out of like 2 million college graduates in 2021 there were about 10,000 total recipients of "gender studies" degrees, they largely go into education, legal professions, or gain employment as interpreters. Median wage $58,000 a year, about $5,000 lower than the national average for all employment, is it a great degree for earning and employment opportunities?  Eh, not really, there is definitely better out there, but harping on it as this horrifying waste of time that couldn't possibly pay off...well as you said, you're socially conservative, and that's pretty obvious from what you say even before you put that in.

[Lurking]

30 minutes ago, Vilacom said:

You literally have no idea what a social construct is, and that's honestly borderline impressive.  You understand that social constructs are just a framework by which groups of people associate with various things right?  Like money is a social construct, government is as well, sports, corporations, property, scientific research, literally all social constructs or the result of one.  They have dictated virtually every single thing in your life including your lack of understanding about what a social construct is.  

You seem to associate it with...I guess exclusively gender identity?  Which you also clearly don't understand, but lord man, have some curiosity about how the world around you actually works.

Here, it's 25 minutes, and even if it won't change your mind about gender it'll at least start you to understanding how the world actually works.
 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Vilacom said:

Also, just for the record...I don't know if you're actually serious about these idiot people who take out loans and waste their time for gender studies degrees...but out of like 2 million college graduates in 2021 there were about 10,000 total recipients of "gender studies" degrees, they largely go into education, legal professions, or gain employment as interpreters. Median wage $58,000 a year, about $5,000 lower than the national average for all employment, is it a great degree for earning and employment opportunities?  Eh, not really, there is definitely better out there, but harping on it as this horrifying waste of time that couldn't possibly pay off...well as you said, you're socially conservative, and that's pretty obvious from what you say even before you put that in.

Is this still about the garbage disposal you wanted?

[Caroline]

10 minutes ago, Lurking said:

 

Is this still about the garbage disposal you wanted?

Well where else are people gonna shred their gender studies degrees after getting the job at Wendy's?

[Vilacom]

32 minutes ago, Lurking said:

 

Is this still about the garbage disposal you wanted?

His understanding of social constructs is at the heart of his argument about why a plumber would be in the right to never be up front about any form of pricing and why I am delusional to want competitive offers for a service I want done.  The idea of a lone plumber working his small business by himself or with 1-2 employees, delaying paid work to try to drum up business, forced to charge what they can for an estimate to keep things afloat is a wonderfully romantic idea that really does a fantastic job supporting his argument but is at odds with the reality(at least on Long Island) where the businesses I am contacting are large enough to have multiple tiers of customer service, managers, and enough on staff plumbing staff to both accomplish what work they have booked AND go out to supply additional(paid) estimates without disruption.  

The person who came to my home was a salaried employee who makes the same amount for their shift if they are driving around providing estimates or doing actual plumbing work.  He also places incredible value on that salaried employees time but obviously chooses to interpret what time I have to spend waiting for the person to arrive and provide the estimate as completely worthless in any other context despite the fact that not only am I being expected to pay in my own time, but I have to spend money as well.  That is all filtered through his understanding of society and social constructs even if he dislikes what its called.

 

The gender studies thing….no probably not, delete it if you have to, he just brought it up a couple times and it’s always been an odd reference to me.  Like, yeah its not the best for financial prospects but you are far more likely to get a good job with a degree in gender studies than any collegiate football/basketball/baseball player getting into their professional league.  Yet for some reason no one who takes the “gender studies bad degree” thing is ever advocating to stop kids from trying to become football players.

[wasab]

1 hour ago, Vilacom said:

 If its starting at $3000 then I just don't need a garbage disposal that badly.  You know, like say, basically every purchase you've ever made in your life?

then you should speak with a plumber directly and give them your max budget. those phone numbers you called are often outsourced third parties who accept calls on their client's behave. they have no information on anything. many business used such services. e.g. internet service providers. i call different internet service providers numbers to check who has best speed for the best price for my building, they were all answered by the same person. how could this be explained? turns out they all outsourced their customer services to the same entity. i would not exactly call this a collusion or price fixing. it could be but not for this particular case

 

1 hour ago, Vilacom said:

 they largely go into education

yes, by studying for a teacher license exams and spending actual time practicing and working as student teachers, not whatever they studied in gender studies

1 hour ago, Vilacom said:

legal professions

yes, by going to law school and studying for the bar exams, not whatever they learned in gender studies

1 hour ago, Vilacom said:

 gain employment as interpreters.

yes, by learning a 2nd language and gaining experiences interpreting, not whatever they studied in gender studies. 

 

so you know, by doing everything that teaches employable skills instead of gender studies, am i right? oh my gosh, why are you giving gender studies so much credits when it deserves none?

 

1 hour ago, Vilacom said:

  Eh, not really, there is definitely better out there, but harping on it as this horrifying waste of time that couldn't possibly pay off...well as you said, you're socially conservative, and that's pretty obvious from what you say even before you put that in.

tell this to the 80% who are underemployed at Starbucks but with student loans and nowhere the income to pay it off. no wonder why American home ownership is on the decline and people are starting families late. bloodsucking student loans companies and schools are preying on the ignorant and destroying the new generation. 

 

1 hour ago, Vilacom said:

Here, it's 25 minutes, and even if it won't change your mind about gender it'll at least start you to understanding how the world actually works.
 

 

i have heard enough of this back in college. i dont need more of this nonsense. 

[Lurking]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_studies

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumbing

 

 Which profession can solve the problem in the OP?

[Vilacom]

11 minutes ago, Lurking said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_studies

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumbing

 

 Which profession can solve the problem in the OP?

I mean, the problem being plumbers(or at least ones in my area of Long Island) using anti competitive practices to keep from having to bid the best price for a job or even give out information that would be helpful in making a decision about whether a customer might want to pursue the price.  So, in my experience the plumber cannot solve the problem.  Now I have no evidence one way or the other how someone with a gender studies degree might handle it, but at the bare minimum they can’t do it worse. 

[Vilacom]

35 minutes ago, wasab said:

then you should speak with a plumber directly and give them your max budget. those phone numbers you called are often outsourced third parties who accept calls on their client's behave. they have no information on anything. many business used such services. e.g. internet service providers. i call different internet service providers numbers to check who has best speed for the best price for my building, they were all answered by the same person. how could this be explained? turns out they all outsourced their customer services to the same entity. i would not exactly call this a collusion or price fixing. it could be but not for this particular case

 

yes, by studying for a teacher license exams and spending actual time practicing and working as student teachers, not whatever they studied in gender studies

yes, by going to law school and studying for the bar exams, not whatever they learned in gender studies

yes, by learning a 2nd language and gaining experiences interpreting, not whatever they studied in gender studies. 

 

so you know, by doing everything that teaches employable skills instead of gender studies, am i right? oh my gosh, why are you giving gender studies so much credits when it deserves none?

 

tell this to the 80% who are underemployed at Starbucks but with student loans and nowhere the income to pay it off. no wonder why American home ownership is on the decline and people are starting families late. bloodsucking student loans companies and schools are preying on the ignorant and destroying the new generation. 

 

i have heard enough of this back in college. i dont need more of this nonsense. 

I called the numbers that were available for the plumbing services in my area, the person who came to the house to charge me for an estimate was a salaried employee who gave me the standard price for a new disposal installation and had to check with his manager for anything beyond exactly what he was authorized to do.  These are fairly large companies, not sole proprietorships trying to scrounge up a living.

I’d love to see where you’re getting your data on employment rates for gender studies graduates, I can’t find anything that even speculates on it.  But from what you’re saying, it seems that people can get a gender studies degree, take the certifications for another job during the same time window(though your law school example doesn’t really make sense, law school’s don’t really care what your undergrads degree was and it wouldn’t be something you do at the same time) and find gainful employment.  So those people got to study something they were interested in, and still ended up doing something meaningful possibly putting some of what they learned to effective use depending on their experiences teaching/what area of law they are in/etc.  Seems decent to me, certainly a much better outcome for time spent than the vast majority of say…collegiate athletes?  You wanna talk about a waste of time with regards to future job prospects and long term financial viability, talk to a third string lineman.

You might have heard it in college, trying approaching it with some interest in actually learning it in your adulthood.  If nothing else you can appreciate experiencing how someone took something as wholly worthless as a bachelors in philosophy and turned it into a massively successful YouTube channel and burgeoning acting career. 

[Lurking]

17 minutes ago, Vilacom said:

I mean, the problem being plumbers(or at least ones in my area of Long Island) using anti competitive practices to keep from having to bid the best price for a job or even give out information that would be helpful in making a decision about whether a customer might want to pursue the price.  So, in my experience the plumber cannot solve the problem.  Now I have no evidence one way or the other how someone with a gender studies degree might handle it, but at the bare minimum they can’t do it worse. 

You should try to hire one of those students. I like to see one of them do actually useful work. It will be a whole new experience for them to use their hands and brain in a real world situation. 

[Spotty]

Thread locked, this discussion is no longer productive.