Anti Competitive Practices with contractors/electricians/plumbers/etc

[Vilacom]

So I live on long island in new york, I decided I would like to get a garbage disposal installed in my kitchen.  This is something that is pretty easy right?  

I called a plumbing service, sure no problem we do that all the time, but we can't give you any pricing information about what it might be because we don't know what the deal is at your house.  You want an appointment?  Ok we charge an $89 evaluation fee to come give you the quote, but don't worry if you go through us for the work we apply that to the cost! 

This was the same at four different plumbing services, with costs ranging from $70 at the cheapest up to a whopping $150, everyone I spoke to was a customer service representative and had no information or knowledge about what went into such an installation, couldn't give me any kind of general ballpark price on a "standard" installation, no clue how long it might take.  Etc etc.

Decided to try an electrician as I have wanted to change out some lights and was curious.  Exact same thing.  Always a $60+ "evaluation fee" applied to the cost of the job if you book with them, no refunds, and they refuse to give you any information regardless of how common of a procedure it clearly must be.  

Like if you wanted to get 3-4 potential bids for a project you'd be out nearly $300 before you've even gotten started, is this common other places?  

[seanondemand]

extremely. service calls ain't free.

[Caroline]

Bro I didn't study to give quotes for free

 

From my side of things doing that is bound to make you lose a job. Clients ALWAYS cheap out even if it's $10 difference between someone who does a half-assed job and a pro doing things right, they'll go for the cheapest one.

 

It's like clients who say "whoa seriously $400 (made up) to install some lights" and don't realise they're paying for the knowledge and effort, not the lights. The electrician knows what lights to install, where, the wires that are needed and how to run them, etc.

 

Taking a call to give a quote could mean missing on another job and money, it's not a free service.

[TetraSky]

Evaluations are not free for a reason.

You're making them show up at your house to check the work that needs to be done.

Travel time and time at your place, is time they can't work on a job at another customer's house.

Them taking the cost of the evaluation off the total cost of the job is perfectly normal to do as that time would then be included in the time needed to complete the job.

 

If you want a "free quote", it usually involves them not showing up, a 5 minutes phone call and would simply be an estimate based on other jobs they've done.

[Needfuldoer]

The most complicated part of installing a garbage disposal is that you need a switched outlet under your sink. That's the part you'll want an electrician to do, since it involves cutting in a box and running cables inside an existing wall. The actual plumbing part isn't too scary.

 

 

Changing light fixtures in existing boxes is an even easier DIY job, as long as you know which breaker to switch off.

 

 

[Vilacom]

11 hours ago, Caroline said:

Bro I didn't study to give quotes for free

 

From my side of things doing that is bound to make you lose a job. Clients ALWAYS cheap out even if it's $10 difference between someone who does a half-assed job and a pro doing things right, they'll go for the cheapest one.

 

It's like clients who say "whoa seriously $400 (made up) to install some lights" and don't realise they're paying for the knowledge and effort, not the lights. The electrician knows what lights to install, where, the wires that are needed and how to run them, etc.

 

Taking a call to give a quote could mean missing on another job and money, it's not a free service.

I do photography, and yeah I get it, people are cheap, how can it be so expensive to just point a camera and press a button?

If I were asking for a detailed, 100% accurate, itemized invoice before things even got started then I would 100% understand charging a fee for it.  But here, I've included a photo of the ceiling and lights of the room I would want to get the work done for.  Included in the picture are all four lights that would need to be removed and lets say I wanted four high hats put in, the room has 8 foot ceilings.  I'm guessing it would take you....30 seconds to have a *reasonable* estimate of the labor that would go into that job?  Maybe not even that long?  Now I get that once you get into the actual installation things can go wrong, added costs can happen, and if I was looking for some strange fixture or lighting product that would absolutely change the price. 

To have a person who is a "customer service representative" answer the phone and apparently knows so little about any service you provide(including ones literally listed on the website as a common installation that you do) that they cannot even give me that rough estimate as to about how much it costs to put four high hats in,  something a company that advertising installing lights has presumably done thousands of times, so I can decide if I even want to get to where the actual costs make sense for me without charging me upwards of $100 is just ludicrous.  

I also get the idea that time giving a quote could conflict with another job...but given how every place I called would have been happy to schedule an appointment for me later that day or the next day clearly they're not exactly overwhelmed with work/taking so many calls for quotes that they will be losing business by providing the quote or hell, tell me to send the picture like I did here and give me a rough estimate that way.  

 

7 hours ago, TetraSky said:

Evaluations are not free for a reason.

You're making them show up at your house to check the work that needs to be done.

Travel time and time at your place, is time they can't work on a job at another customer's house.

Them taking the cost of the evaluation off the total cost of the job is perfectly normal to do as that time would then be included in the time needed to complete the job.

 

If you want a "free quote", it usually involves them not showing up, a 5 minutes phone call and would simply be an estimate based on other jobs they've done.

I'd be thrilled to have the option for a quick 5 minute phone call based on other jobs they've done.  I'm not looking for something crazy, putting in a few high hats or installing a garbage disposal(things they literally have listed as individual services they offer on their websites) are reasonably standard things and my primary interest is to see if the "standard" price for an installation is even something in my price range for what is a pretty simple quality of life upgrade and not anything required.  If you can tell me that a standard installation for that garbage disposal is...$2000 assuming there is already power there then hey, lets not waste either of our time, that starting price is well beyond what I can afford for something like that knowing that it could go up from there if there is something out of the ordinary.

Instead, as I've said above, the people answering the phones for these companies I honestly believe would deny knowing that plumbing involves transporting water around your house for various uses if I pressed them on that particular fact.  When I asked one why they didn't inquire if there was an outlet for the disposal under the sink before scheduling an appointment for the installation that then couldn't happen because they don't put in outlets I was told that they weren't a plumber and would have no way of knowing that an outlet was something that was needed or that they should ask that before scheduling an appointment to install one.  Boom, you're not doing work for me and a chargeback is happening to get my money back since the appointment was made based on the fact that their company strategy is to make me talk to someone who apparently knows literally nothing except how to put appointments into a calendar, and they cannot do the work I wanted them to do yet feel they are entitled to $100 for looking at my sink and informing me they can't do so.  

[Poinkachu]

8 hours ago, TetraSky said:

and would simply be an estimate based on other jobs they've done.

And possibly they'd assume everything behind that ceiling or wall is exactly the same as their previous job where everything behind is either perfect or the worst.

[Vilacom]

2 minutes ago, Poinkachu said:

And possibly they'd assume everything behind that ceiling or wall is exactly the same as their previous job where everything behind is either perfect or the worst.

What is the other option?  When they show up to provide even the paid estimate its not like they're opening up the ceiling or wall to check that, they're going to make the estimate based on what it looks like from the outside and then once you've actually contracted the work if something is different they'll change the price based on what they find

[atxcyclist]

I have replaced my own disposal and I wouldn’t try to give a flat price for it. Too many variables, especially on an older house where the drain trap might be installed in an unconventional way, or the electrical hookup is funky. Rolling a diagnostic fee into labor is really common, if for no other reason than it sweetens the deal with a perceived discount at time of the work being completed.

[Vilacom]

13 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I have replaced my own disposal and I wouldn’t try to give a flat price for it. Too many variables, especially on an older house where the drain trap might be installed in an unconventional way, or the electrical hookup is funky. Rolling a diagnostic fee into labor is really common, if for no other reason than it sweetens the deal with a perceived discount at time of the work being completed.

You mean assuming they're actually reducing the price by the amount they charge and not just increasing the work by the amount of the diagnostic fee?  

Also, as I've noted before, there is a difference between "It will be $900 for the installation" and "Based on previous jobs a typical installation usually will run between $900-$1000 but that can change based one the following X. "  

I 100% understand why they wouldn't want to go with the first, but the second gives a starting point and lets me, the customer, know that hey this might be a something I actually want to do or hey, even if its a perfect smooth sailing thing its just too much money so no need to get any further into this.  

If you can't/refuse to even provide that second one then it just bad faith to scam money off of a job that you don't even know if its remotely doable.

[Caroline]

Mild OT but if those you have are (2 ft?) linear fluorescent light fittings I wouldn't have them replaced, unless you go for something with replaceable lamps.

 

You'll be tempted by affordable LED fittings that look good but are terrible quality, those are disposable and run super hot (for a LED) so you'll end up with a flickering light in a year or some months depending on how much you use them, some also get ugly burn marks or turn yellow, and the LEDs slowly lose their brightness over time, usually before it starts flickering or dies.

 

Most sparkies will end up installing those by default nowadays if you don't know what you want or don't purchase the stuff yourself.

I know yours might not be the prettiest but even with the cover on they'll last much longer than new stuff.

 

About the quotes it's a problem if you're calling companies, apparently that's normal in the US? you can't talk directly to the person who will actually do the job, that sucks. Say you call me for the lights, I'd ask stuff like ceiling height or what kind of lights you have, etc. and then give advice on what kind of lights you can install, the cost, etc.

[Needfuldoer]

8 hours ago, Caroline said:

You'll be tempted by affordable LED fittings that look good but are terrible quality, those are disposable and run super hot (for a LED) so you'll end up with a flickering light in a year or some months depending on how much you use them, some also get ugly burn marks or turn yellow, and the LEDs slowly lose their brightness over time, usually before it starts flickering or dies.

That hasn't been my experience. About 6 years ago, I installed LED retrofit pot lights like these:

 

 

Yes the entire fixture is disposable, but they still look and work like new. The diodes are spread out over a relatively large surface that acts like a big heat sink.

 

 

For 4-foot fluorescent fixtures, those replacement LED tubes are great. Some just drop right in, but the more efficient ones make you bypass the ballast and connect the tombstones right to line voltage. Those will never take a conventional tube again, but I have no intention of running those.

 

But yeah, replaceable bulbs are generally better so long as you run LED bulbs that are rated for enclosed fixtures. Not all of them are, and the ones that aren't will cook themselves. 

 

[Lurking]

You do realize there is a shortage of skilled trade people? 

 

If the work is that easy, why not open your own shop and let all that easy money flow in?

 

Why do you think they should come to your house for potentially zero money? 

 

Hire and pay a professional to do the work, or learn to do it yourself. 

[ToboRobot]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:34 PM, Vilacom said:

So I live on long island in new york, I decided I would like to get a garbage disposal installed in my kitchen.  This is something that is pretty easy right?  

I called a plumbing service, sure no problem we do that all the time, but we can't give you any pricing information about what it might be because we don't know what the deal is at your house.  You want an appointment?  Ok we charge an $89 evaluation fee to come give you the quote, but don't worry if you go through us for the work we apply that to the cost! 

This was the same at four different plumbing services, with costs ranging from $70 at the cheapest up to a whopping $150, everyone I spoke to was a customer service representative and had no information or knowledge about what went into such an installation, couldn't give me any kind of general ballpark price on a "standard" installation, no clue how long it might take.  Etc etc.

Decided to try an electrician as I have wanted to change out some lights and was curious.  Exact same thing.  Always a $60+ "evaluation fee" applied to the cost of the job if you book with them, no refunds, and they refuse to give you any information regardless of how common of a procedure it clearly must be.  

Like if you wanted to get 3-4 potential bids for a project you'd be out nearly $300 before you've even gotten started, is this common other places?  

You can do it right yourself!

You can find a reputable company and continue to employ them to build a long term relationship.

You can hop around without loyalty trying to find the one that will do the best job for the lowest price.

There are always tradeoffs with whatever strategy you take.

Think about what really matters to you, is it doing a good job, being available 24/7, the lowest cost... etc

And then really think about what the tradeoffs for what you want is?  Do you want a good job, 24/7 service, AND expect it to be cheap?

I have found that honest communication works best, but you need to be honest with yourself and realistic with the tradeoffs.  

And once you find people that do good work for a fair price, KEEP HIRING THEM (pay them on time, and be respectful of the workers), and refer them to others who share your values.  Good business likes good customers

[Donut417]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:34 PM, Vilacom said:

Like if you wanted to get 3-4 potential bids for a project you'd be out nearly $300 before you've even gotten started, is this common other places?  

This is the result of the older generation telling the younger one to go to collage. No one is getting in to the trades. So the few that are in the trades can charge what ever they want. Plus NYC is known for regulations out the ass. 

[wasab]

plumbers coming to your house aint free. you think they would waste gas and hours of their day to drive to your house when they could be billing $100 per hour fixing another customer's pipes?

 

22 hours ago, Donut417 said:

This is the result of the older generation telling the younger one to go to collage. No one is getting in to the trades. So the few that are in the trades can charge what ever they want. Plus NYC is known for regulations out the ass. 

there is a mismatch between supply and demand in the labor market for sure. we have enough gender studies PhD lecturing us on why men can be women and women can be men. 

[Vilacom]

On 4/25/2024 at 2:06 PM, Lurking said:

You do realize there is a shortage of skilled trade people? 

 

If the work is that easy, why not open your own shop and let all that easy money flow in?

 

Why do you think they should come to your house for potentially zero money? 

 

Hire and pay a professional to do the work, or learn to do it yourself. 

Now I start to understand when Linus gets frustrated by people interpreting things he said as things he absolutely didn’t say.

I don’t want them to come to my house for potentially zero money, I’d like a base price for a service they advertise so I can decide if them coming to my house is even something I’d consider.  If a simple installation starts at say $700, great come on over and lets find out what the deal is, if it starts a $3000, whoops not something I care to do even if it was the cheapest it can be, no need to waste anyone’s time.

But that’s not being offered, instead I’m being forced to talk to someone who isn’t a skilled trade person or professional at anything beyond answering phones and making appointments so the company can get money for something I have absolutely no idea if I want to even try to do or even afford. 

 

 

On 4/25/2024 at 2:13 PM, ToboRobot said:

You can do it right yourself!

You can find a reputable company and continue to employ them to build a long term relationship.

You can hop around without loyalty trying to find the one that will do the best job for the lowest price.

There are always tradeoffs with whatever strategy you take.

Think about what really matters to you, is it doing a good job, being available 24/7, the lowest cost... etc

And then really think about what the tradeoffs for what you want is?  Do you want a good job, 24/7 service, AND expect it to be cheap?

I have found that honest communication works best, but you need to be honest with yourself and realistic with the tradeoffs.  

And once you find people that do good work for a fair price, KEEP HIRING THEM (pay them on time, and be respectful of the workers), and refer them to others who share your values.  Good business likes good customers

See above, This has nothing to do with wanting rock bottom prices, I just want a goddamn starting point so I can decide if this small quality of life change is worth even considering before spending time finding someone to do the job.  If all I gave a shit about was absolute rock bottom pricing there are plenty of places to pick up day laborers who probably can get close enough for this to work but that’s not what I’m placing value on, at this point the value I’d be looking for is…shit I don’t know, actually being willing to say up front that a garbage disposal installation, a service they actively advertise on their website, typically will cost between X and X assuming its a straightforward installation so I can make any kind of decision about if their services will be required in the first place.

 

 

On 4/25/2024 at 9:51 PM, Donut417 said:

This is the result of the older generation telling the younger one to go to collage. No one is getting in to the trades. So the few that are in the trades can charge what ever they want. Plus NYC is known for regulations out the ass. 

I promise you there is no lack of people going into trades on Long Island, within a couple miles of my house there are no less than five plumbing companies advertised all of which expect a nice fat stack of cash before they even acknowledge that they provide plumbing services.

 

 

6 hours ago, wasab said:

plumbers coming to your house aint free. you think they would waste gas and hours of their day to drive to your house when they could be billing $100 per hour fixing another customer's pipes?

 

there is a mismatch between supply and demand in the labor market for sure. we have enough gender studies PhD lecturing us on why men can be women and women can be men. 

Please read the above responses as to why I don’t want them wasting gas and hours of their day, nor am I preventing them from billing $100 an hour fixing someone’s pipes when every place I called has people happy to come by the same day or literally any time the next day.  Wiiiiide open schedules.

Also, even an idiot like me can explain what a social construct is without a PHD in gender studies, maybe if you were willing to read things a little more carefully you wouldn’t need one either.

[Lurking]

7 hours ago, Vilacom said:

 

I promise you there is no lack of people going into trades on Long Island, within a couple miles of my house there are no less than five plumbing companies advertised all of which expect a nice fat stack of cash before they even acknowledge that they provide plumbing services.

Your experience proofs the opposite. Your area may be populous enough to keep 5 companies busy without having to invest in customer acquisition. 

 

And your area would be the only one in the entire US without lack of GOOD trades people. You may want to reconsider labor market statements 

 

The guy answering the phone isn't a plumber (as you probably guessed). That is a lower paid admin person. They probably should be able to at least give a range .. but the market seems to be that they can afford to charge for estimates. If you are unlucky,that same person is showing up for the estimate.

 

Even if the guy on the phone is a plumber. Based on your explanation they know nothing. Do you have cast pipes, PVC? How large? How much room?

Do you already have the switched outlet? Are you hiring that out separately? Are you expecting the plumber to hire an electrician? How hard will it be to run power:to under the sink?

 

And if someone gives you an estimate over the phone, how do you react when they arrive and see the mess and tell you it cost twice? If the quote they give you isn't solid, it is useless to you anyway 

 

When I do house project it always is more involved than I think. Even when it isn't my first time I do this and I know my house. 

 

Plumbers can make $100K if they are good and in the right area. They also often get commission and other incentives. They basically come to your house and hopefully the switched power outlet and everything is ready for them to get done quickly. 

 

Either learn how to do it. Find a handy man or similar, find additional companies, and provide them with better information, pictures, available pipe sizes and types. 

 

Find recommendations in neighborhood Facebook groups. 

 

Don't laugh about gender studies. I work for a government as an engineer. The AA, DEI and gender people make much more money than engineers and have literally no responsibility, license requirements etc. That's the best gig ever. And companies also get bullied into creating such positions. More money than a plumber, and you need to know less. If you think about it, they are smarter than us stupid people doing actual work.

[Donut417]

7 hours ago, Vilacom said:

promise you there is no lack of people going into trades on Long Island, within a couple miles of my house there are no less than five plumbing companies advertised all of which expect a nice fat stack of cash before they even acknowledge that they provide plumbing services.

A few years back the stat was 800K of skilled trades jobs in Michigan will go unfilled. Skilled trades died in Michigan when Bill Clinton signed NAFTA in to law and we normalized trade with China. Because that sucking sound you heard was American Jobs going over seas. As a result our parents told us that the trades were not good jobs. Due to them mostly being tied to the auto industry and wages falling. So we were told go to school. Which has resulted in less people going in to the trades and massive amounts of student loan debt. Both Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs)  and Mike Holmes (Canadian Contractor) have been talking about the shortages for literal years.

 

The fact these companies  are charging a fee to come out and look is an indication they have too much work. Further more Long Island is part of NYC, there is over 8 million people that live there. Thats a lot of potential for work. So these companies can pick and choose who they work for and can charge what ever they want because frankly the choice is pay them or do it yourself.

 

 

[FlyingPotato_is_taken]

$60 for a quote sounds high but if the market allows it they can charge it.

From their perspective:$80/hour (assuming European prices)so $60 is roughly 45 min which is reasonable assumption for a quote + travel.

 

The call centre being unable to provide a price bracket is bad. They should be able to answer such question.

 

[Lurking]

34 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

A few years back the stat was 800K of skilled trades jobs in Michigan will go unfilled. Skilled trades died in Michigan when Bill Clinton signed NAFTA in to law and we normalized trade with China. Because that sucking sound you heard was American Jobs going over seas. As a result our parents told us that the trades were not good jobs. Due to them mostly being tied to the auto industry and wages falling. So we were told go to school. Which has resulted in less people going in to the trades and massive amounts of student loan debt. Both Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs)  and Mike Holmes (Canadian Contractor) have been talking about the shortages for literal years.

 

The fact these companies  are charging a fee to come out and look is an indication they have too much work. Further more Long Island is part of NYC, there is over 8 million people that live there. Thats a lot of potential for work. So these companies can pick and choose who they work for and can charge what ever they want because frankly the choice is pay them or do it yourself.

 

 

NAFTA may have affected factory workers. Those aren't necessarily skilled. They just do what machines struggle with. 

 

A car factory worker needs to know nothing about how cars actually work. A car mechanic repairing a car actually needs to know. Ironically the pay is the opposite of what is skill based.

 

Actual trade jobs like plumbers aren't impacted since they show up on site and can't be outdourced. And they actually need skills (apprenticeship, license etc )

[Donut417]

4 minutes ago, Lurking said:

NAFTA may have affected factory workers. Those aren't necessarily skilled. They just do what machines struggle with. 

My dad was a tool and die maker. That is part of the trades and that was one of the jobs that was effected by NAFTA. When my dad worked for Flow, the plant was closed and they sent all the work to Canada, again NAFTA.

[Lurking]

10 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

My dad was a tool and die maker. That is part of the trades and that was one of the jobs that was effected by NAFTA. When my dad worked for Flow, the plant was closed and they sent all the work to Canada, again NAFTA.

Obviously I don't know the specifics. But I bet that Canadian factory was more competitive overall. Good for them. Good for the overall rest of the population. We all have a higher living standard if all work is done by the most suitable entity. No one (except a small group) benefits from artificially protecting uncompetitive industries. 

 

That's why we have high prices, lack of free trade and tariffs. Steel, appliances ... all uncompetitive industries are propped up at the expense of everyone else.

 

Your dad's place may have had bad management, unions, lack if investment and a plethora of reason out of your dad's control. Hope he found something else to put his skills to work.

[Donut417]

11 minutes ago, Lurking said:

Obviously I don't know the specifics. But I bet that Canadian factory was more competitive overall. Good for them. Good for the overall rest of the population. We all have a higher living standard if all work is done by the most suitable entity. No one (except a small group) benefits from artificially protecting uncompetitive industries. 

 

That's why we have high prices, lack of free trade and tariffs. Steel, appliances ... all uncompetitive industries are propped up at the expense of everyone else.

 

Your dad's place may have had bad management, unions, lack if investment and a plethora of reason out of your dad's control. Hope he found something else to put his skills to work.

The company he worked for Flow is a major company when it comes to Water Jets and Robotics. When he worked for them he used to install machines. He got laid off back in 2006 from them, but again because of NAFTA (It was cheaper to be in Canada). He found a job at a smaller tool and die shop, but again its part of the trades and there are shortages as stated. Companies do a lot of this work in China because its cheaper, quality is shit, but its cheaper. My point still stands, NAFTA is a great part of why trades died here in Michigan. Because a lot f trade jobs were tied to the big 3.

 

Personally Im indifferent when it comes to unions. But I think free trade is a scam. It only really benefits poorer countries by bringing them all the jobs, while benefiting corporations by giving them more profit.

[wasab]

16 hours ago, Vilacom said:

Please read the above responses as to why I don’t want them wasting gas and hours of their day, nor am I preventing them from billing $100 an hour fixing someone’s pipes when every place I called has people happy to come by the same day or literally any time the next day.  Wiiiiide open schedules.

dude, you are clearly complaining about being charged before work can even begin and then worry about not being able to reject the service and get your money back should they come up with a big number for the actual costs. plumbing is not lawyers' and doctors' office buddy. there is no free consultation. it is simply how things work because driving distance and time + inspection of your problem can easily take a huge chunk out of plumbers working day, only to leave him empty-handed at the end precisely because of a case like yours. they come over after hours driving, inspecting your problem for a couple of hours, then have you stiffing them by refusing their service and asking for a refund, then they drive home for another few hours and what do you know? It is 5pm+ and they missed their entire days pay. 

 

On 4/23/2024 at 7:34 PM, Vilacom said:

Also, even an idiot like me can explain what a social construct is without a PHD in gender studies, maybe if you were willing to read things a little more carefully you wouldn’t need one either.

why would I want to read about Orwellian double think? I don't need to understand the mental gymnastics necessary to accept two contradicting facts simultaneously. i thought college is meant to be school of learning, not brainwashing double think that left you in debt, 4-10 years of opportunity costs, and with nothing to show for at the end.