Way to test students on computer use?

[Niqht1]

I think this will be the best place to post this..

I am a 7th/8th grade teacher and they have no idea how to use computers I want to make a section about computer usage, but I need a way to check and test them over it. Might anyone have any ideas? I would love to have as much as possible in a program that has them use key commands and does certain functions, but.. I don't know how practical that is. I have used VB to make a program long ago, and that could cover some things, but I don't know to what extent at this point.

And for reference, I mean things like shortcuts (undo, redo, save, and other program specific ones), opening file explorer and navigating somewhere, moving/copying, perhaps detect if they go to the start menu and open a certain program, stuff along this line. Something to use it then test them on doing it. But perhaps this is a dream

[SansVarnic]

Today your typical 7/8th grader is going to have more than some experience with a pc, back in the 90's the common age of pc understanding was 3/4/5th graders.

 

I should ask what specific things on a pc are you wanting to teach? There are several programs that teach basic pc usage but they are designed for younger ages. 7/8th graders are likely ready for language and coding introduction.

[Niqht1]

That is hilarious. You have no idea. You scale is way off. In a game atm, will add more in a bit...

[SansVarnic]

19 minutes ago, Niqht1 said:

That is hilarious. You have no idea. You scale is way off. In a game atm, will add more in a bit...

I know better than you think but it seems you're not giving your students a decent amount of credit.

I was in 5th grade back in '91, built my first pc in '95 with my own money. Started learning pcs on a 386sx.... using DOS.

[Niqht1]

I was the campus tech for 4 years. Now teaching AV and Robotics. They ask me weekly, almost daily, how to save, how to undo, what program do we use, 

As it is, they don't know what File Explorer is, they don't know what the start menu is, they will sit there and turn the monitor off and on 10x and then tell me the computer doesn't work. Last semester I had students, after 15+ weeks, asking me how to save and turn in. They will get 2 sentences into a written guide or 30 seconds into a video guide and then ask me what to do.

75% of them can literally only use a phone and cannot focus more than a tiktok video.

 

In robotics when I introduced coding the first time they shut down. 11 out of 16 kids wouldn't do it and took the 0. I now have them do pseudo code in 'programming their day' and we refine that down.

[SansVarnic]

18 minutes ago, Niqht1 said:

I was the campus tech for 4 years. Now teaching AV and Robotics. They ask me weekly, almost daily, how to save, how to undo, what program do we use, 

As it is, they don't know what File Explorer is, they don't know what the start menu is, they will sit there and turn the monitor off and on 10x and then tell me the computer doesn't work. Last semester I had students, after 15+ weeks, asking me how to save and turn in. They will get 2 sentences into a written guide or 30 seconds into a video guide and then ask me what to do.

75% of them can literally only use a phone and cannot focus more than a tiktok video.

 

In robotics when I introduced coding the first time they shut down. 11 out of 16 kids wouldn't do it and took the 0. I now have them do pseudo code in 'programming their day' and we refine that down.

It seems to me you already have your basic curriculum requirements already made out. I would use this as an introduction to any course you teach, this way it will somewhat help. As an example, my own children, I don't show them anything I make them learn it on their own by providing them with the how to look it up on their own, teaches both self-worth and critical thinking skills, there are some exceptions of course. Can't fix stupid but you can teach it out of them. Surprising how quicky they will pick it up if you give them the tools to teach themselves.

 

I can understand a certain level of regression, not withstanding the stupidity due to tiktok and twitter culture. 

 

*edit: I stand corrected. You are correct, with the mobile phone singular thought of todays gen, pcs are not a firsthand knowledge anymore. <self eye roll>

[Niqht1]

I agree with that, but you are in the very tiny minority. I am an elective in jr high and many simply do not care because it doesn't matter. At best I can get them to actually stay seated, not yell across the room, and let me help those that do want to do it.

 

My plan is to build this overall computing lesson before ever getting into editing and then have something to refer them back to instead of answering the basics constantly.

[starsmine]

2 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Today your typical 7/8th grader is going to have more than some experience with a pc, back in the 90's the common age of pc understanding was 3/4/5th graders.

They really really dont. Computer use has tanked, they use their phone for everything, folder structure are a lost concept. 

 

2 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

I should ask what specific things on a pc are you wanting to teach? There are several programs that teach basic pc usage but they are designed for younger ages. 7/8th graders are likely ready for language and coding introduction.

You overestimate knowledge. We have made things SO abstract and so user friendly, there is zero trouble shooting skills from those in middle school in getting hardware to work or software to run, and again, largely because they dont use computers. 
Chrome book is the closest thing to one and that OS explicitly goes out of its way to make a person not have to learn anything.

This isnt a negative against those of that age, its a negative of the direction of tech having zero barrier of entry to be more usable. Im not saying we need to increase the barrier of entry, but the way it is done creates no incentive to learn. 

Teaching computer skills also went the way of the dodo in school. like it was taught in the late 90s - early 2000s, but those writing the curriculums largely threw in the towel because out of date on release and the thought was "these kids are now computer natives, they know more then we do."

Chromebook OS has done them zero favors 

[SansVarnic]

7 minutes ago, starsmine said:

They really really dont. Computer use has tanked, they use their phone for everything, folder structure are a lost concept. 

 

You overestimate knowledge. We have made things SO abstract and so user friendly, there is zero trouble shooting skills from those in middle school in getting hardware to work or software to run, and again, largely because they dont use computers. 
Chrome book is the closest thing to one and that OS explicitly goes out of its way to make a person not have to learn anything.

This isnt a negative against those of that age, its a negative of the direction of tech having zero barrier of entry to be more usable. Im not saying we need to increase the barrier of entry, but the way it is done creates no incentive to learn. 

I made an edit before your reply... I forget sometimes about the mobile phone regression of our youth. Thankfully, I make sure to balance my children into some common [not so anymore] sense.

59 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

*edit: I stand corrected. You are correct, with the mobile phone singular thought of todays gen, pcs are not a firsthand knowledge anymore. <self eye roll>

 

Edited February 19 by SansVarnic

[Niqht1]

" We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. " - Carl Sagan

[cooky560]

It wouldn't surprise me if people today know less about the traditional desktop PC, given the proliferation of tablets and phones. 

 

I have a younger brother who was born in the 90s, who is far better at using a phone than his PC, meanwhile me  who's a bit older, cannot stand touch gestures and does as much with a pc as possible.

[Needfuldoer]

You might just have to treat it like an "introduction to personal computers" course from around the time Windows 95 launched. Explain everything, no matter how basic it seems to us old folks who have been using PCs since before we were their age.

 

Maybe showing them an old PC running Windows 95 and Office 97 would be beneficial, since it will demonstrate the fundamentals with fewer modern distractions. We don't think about it, but a lot of today's modern interfaces still reference the way things used to be, and they make less sense if you lack that context. ("Why does that square thing mean save?")

 

This is one point where I agree that phone bad. Kids these days know their little distraction rectangles inside out and backwards, but ask them to save a file to the desktop and they look at you like you have three heads.

[TetraSky]

I went back to Cégep (pre-university/technical college) 4 years ago for a career change. I was taking classes with kids aged 18-20. More than a few had no clue how to get around on a windows computer even with written directives like "open the start menu, find X software and open it".

One of them even asked me after class what a start menu was. I wish I was kidding.

 

Yes they can "use" it. But they don't actually know anything about it.

it's like they've never had a class where they teach the basics of a Windows computer like what the explorer window is, the system tray, the task bar, etc... Which might just be it.

Even a paper test as simple as a screen shot that has little numbers next to each item and a separate page with a multiple choice list that you can link to numbers to say what each item is, would go a long way to educate them on this.

[ToboRobot]

8 hours ago, Niqht1 said:

I think this will be the best place to post this..

I am a 7th/8th grade teacher and they have no idea how to use computers I want to make a section about computer usage, but I need a way to check and test them over it. Might anyone have any ideas? I would love to have as much as possible in a program that has them use key commands and does certain functions, but.. I don't know how practical that is. I have used VB to make a program long ago, and that could cover some things, but I don't know to what extent at this point.

And for reference, I mean things like shortcuts (undo, redo, save, and other program specific ones), opening file explorer and navigating somewhere, moving/copying, perhaps detect if they go to the start menu and open a certain program, stuff along this line. Something to use it then test them on doing it. But perhaps this is a dream

Normally online we see students asking others to do there work, this is a first seeing a teacher ask other people to do their job!

Find out the end state or goal you want them to be able to do, say use a computer to write a book report and submit it to the teacher.

Break that down into teachable and observable skills, like Step one turn on the PC...

Good luck doing your job.

[Niqht1]

6 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

Normally online we see students asking others to do there work, this is a first seeing a teacher ask other people to do their job!

Find out the end state or goal you want them to be able to do, say use a computer to write a book report and submit it to the teacher.

Break that down into teachable and observable skills, like Step one turn on the PC...

Good luck doing your job.

Reading compression? 

 

How can I build something to test this stuff is the point. I would like a program that can be run and as keys/functions are used it can detect it and record wrong/correct.

And for certain programs perhaps detect clicked places on a picture of that program.

I have 2 possibilities, but am looking for anything else. 

[ToboRobot]

3 minutes ago, Niqht1 said:

Reading compression? 

 

How can I build something to test this stuff is the point. I would like a program that can be run and as keys/functions are used it can detect it and record wrong/correct.

And for certain programs perhaps detect clicked places on a picture of that program.

I have 2 possibilities, but am looking for anything else. 

You want to develop software to do a specific task for your job?

Do you know how to develop software?  Learning should be step one, or finding people who do and providing them with the requirements for the software you want them to develop for you.

 

Sounds like your job is to be a teacher and you want a computer to aid or replace your role in the classroom.  And you are seeking others to tell you how to do it?

Is there a problem with my reading comprehension?

[HenrySalayne]

1 hour ago, Niqht1 said:

Reading compression? 

 

How can I build something to test this stuff is the point. I would like a program that can be run and as keys/functions are used it can detect it and record wrong/correct.

And for certain programs perhaps detect clicked places on a picture of that program.

I have 2 possibilities, but am looking for anything else. 

Hi there. I think you don't want that. Using a PC always means there a multiple ways to achieve the same thing. Testing a student on their ability to klick through something as intended by the teacher is a HORRIFIC way to measure their performance. I can see why you as a teacher want something like that, but I would strongly advise against it.

 

In my opinion, a combination of multiple-choice tests and (a) project(s) is more suited for this. The questions could look like "you want to change the font size. Where can you set it?" and you show them a screenshot with 4 marked areas pointing to different parts of the UI and they need to select the correct one. This could be easily done with educational software like Moodle.

The project part should allow students to freely achieve certain goals, however you define those goals. "Create a document with three tiers of captions, a title and, automatic date and numbering in the footer."

This is a very basic example, but there are at least three ways to set the footer in Word. How would your "test" account for all instances when there are several solutions? Do you even know all ways to do a certain task? Maybe there is a hidden context menu when you press a certain key.

 

You want to turn your students into educated users, capable of acquiring new, safe and efficient skills to use their computer. Forcing them to act in set scenarios in a certain way is certainly not achieving this.

[GoStormPlays]

19 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Today your typical 7/8th grader is going to have more than some experience with a pc, back in the 90's the common age of pc understanding was 3/4/5th graders.

 

For some, sure. But I know plenty of 7th and 8th graders who's only computer use has been on a mac or with a chromebook, and even then their know-how is limited.

[GoStormPlays]

20 hours ago, Niqht1 said:

I think this will be the best place to post this..

I am a 7th/8th grade teacher and they have no idea how to use computers I want to make a section about computer usage, but I need a way to check and test them over it. Might anyone have any ideas? I would love to have as much as possible in a program that has them use key commands and does certain functions, but.. I don't know how practical that is. I have used VB to make a program long ago, and that could cover some things, but I don't know to what extent at this point.

And for reference, I mean things like shortcuts (undo, redo, save, and other program specific ones), opening file explorer and navigating somewhere, moving/copying, perhaps detect if they go to the start menu and open a certain program, stuff along this line. Something to use it then test them on doing it. But perhaps this is a dream

I would try to find something that they'd want to do on a computer that would involve going into file explorer and such. I know a substantial amount of my computer knowledge came from computer-related tasks/projects that I wanted to complete. Things like personalizing their computer, installing games and applications, and learning basic command prompt operations could all be pretty fun for your students if you presented them in the right way. 

[indrora]

I have a few thoughts on this, tempered from my years of tutoring college students on basic IT. Not all of this will apply to an 8th grader. Use your best judgement.

 

IMNSHO, topics like media literacy ("is this real? How do I trust it?") and core skills like file management, organizational skills, etc. 

 

at one point, I developed a checklist of "Essential shit you will need to know in order to be competent in the world of computers". 

 

• Identify the following ports: USB (A,B,C, Micro/Mini B), ethernet, HDMI, VGA, SD/"removable media".
• Discuss at some level the difference between a desktop application (e.g. Word/Excel/VLC) and a web application (GoogleDocs, office online, Gmail, Twitter, etc)
• identify and discuss the differences between RAM and storage, "fixed" disks vs portable storage, etc. 
• Troubleshoot "is it me" - that is, is this website slow, are all websites slow, is my computer slow: I constantly hear people who complain that their computer is slow because it takes a very long time to load a specific webapp, such as one from a university that is being inundated with every student trying to register for the same 10 classes at once. 
• Importance of updated software (security, at least) and occasionally rebooting your machine. 
• In some form or fashion, be able to store, in some long-term form, information you don't want to remember now ("exobrain" type work) -- I don't care how. it can be Google Keep, OneNote, Notion, a text file they keep on their desktop. Whatever. Some form of digital notebook. I will occasionally accept bookmarks. 
• Print/Save to PDF
• Using the Internet Archive at some level. I specifically start with "what if I wanted to see the front page of CNN on September 11, 2001?" 
• Two-place backups. Easier if they're a Mac user -- I just tell them to get a 2TB external SSD and the Apple usb-hdmi dongle, keep it plugged in when they go to bed. Windows users I generally point to "Make regular backups on a flash drive." I'm not going to go into 3-2-1 rule type stuff. 
• Password managers and how they work. 
• How to touch type. This is, no shit, one of the most powerful things I have gotten people to learn. Being able to transcribe something you see into words is supremely useful.
• How to manage files: copy/paste/move/rename/etc. Saving your work. Citing sources digitally (even if it's just a URL)

That's most of it. The ends are the most important imo. I would hear people come to me and go "My phone is so slow" and I'd look at it and the reason wasn't that they had too many pictures, as they would claim, but instead because they had a ton of backgrounded apps. I'd ask "When's the last time you rebooted your phone" and they'd look at me like I had grown a third eyeball. 

 

There's some good reading to be had about this topic, too, if that's your thing:

• https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/ -- Older, but still somewhat relevant study on how well people handle various tiers of tasks with computers. 
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844023020856 A review of mechanisms for teaching and quantifying digital literacy (open access, even!)

 

If I were to design a "thing" that covered a lot of these, it would be the following:

 

Quote

In Word, write a letter. It doesn't have to be fancy, but it should cover a subject you're interested in (cars, planes, grass, even a game). You should write a short (paragraph at most) summary of a webpage that you found discussing that topic, why it looks credible, and what you learned. It should have bold, italic, underlined, and listed text. Save a PDF copy of the page to your flash drive.

Save your word document to your flash drive and hand it to a classmate. 

 

On the flash drive you receive, make a copy of the original file. Give the copy the name "my response" and open it.

 

After the words that your classmate wrote, add your response: do you agree that their source looks credible? Why or why not? What did you learn about that topic? it should contain some new font choice. Save the file, then email it and the PDF to your instructor.

Keep the flash drive. 

You can get bulk packs of small size flash drives -- I don't know what your budget looks like (knowing America, bad) but if you can, you can get massive quantities of flash drives cheap now that are good enough for keeping high school stuff on. 

[Niqht1]

5 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

Sounds like your job is to be a teacher and you want a computer to aid or replace your role in the classroom.  And you are seeking others to tell you how to do it?

This shows you still don't quite understand the point. I have a computer lab. They don't know how to use them. I want to teach and test by using them. Adobe stuff is not straight forward or simple. They need the muscle memory.

 

 

3 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

Hi there. I think you don't want that. Using a PC always means there a multiple ways to achieve the same thing. Testing a student on their ability to click through something as intended by the teacher is a HORRIFIC way to measure their performance. I can see why you as a teacher want something like that, but I would strongly advise against it.

Of course there are multiple ways. I need to teach them *a* way,

 

3 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

The questions could look like "you want to change the font size. Where can you set it?" and you show them a screenshot with 4 marked areas pointing to different parts of the UI and they need to select the correct one. This could be easily done with educational software like Moodle.

The project part should allow students to freely achieve certain goals, however you define those goals. "Create a document with three tiers of captions, a title and, automatic date and numbering in the footer."

This is a very basic example, but there are at least three ways to set the footer in Word. How would your "test" account for all instances when there are several solutions? Do you even know all ways to do a certain task? Maybe there is a hidden context menu when you press a certain key.

These are 7th/8th grade.. they can't remember what program we use and you want to show them every way possible to do something..

 

 

3 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

You want to turn your students into educated users, capable of acquiring new, safe and efficient skills to use their computer. Forcing them to act in set scenarios in a certain way is certainly not achieving this.

 

3 hours ago, GoStormPlays said:

I would try to find something that they'd want to do on a computer that would involve going into file explorer and such. I know a substantial amount of my computer knowledge came from computer-related tasks/projects that I wanted to complete. Things like personalizing their computer, installing games and applications, and learning basic command prompt operations could all be pretty fun for your students if you presented them in the right way. 

You are in the wrong decade.

[ToboRobot]

28 minutes ago, Niqht1 said:

This shows you still don't quite understand the point. I have a computer lab. They don't know how to use them. I want to teach and test by using them. Adobe stuff is not straight forward or simple. They need the muscle memory.

 

You are a teacher.  You have a computer lab.  The students don't know how to use the computers?  If you want to teach them how to use the computers, do you have a set curriculum you must follow, or are you creating your own?  

Once you have taught the students what they need to know, you then want a computer program or system to automate the testing process?

I am unclear if there is a communication problem or a skills and experience issue.

[GoStormPlays]

4 hours ago, Niqht1 said:

You are in the wrong decade.

It doesn't have to be those things; those are just expanding on some of the things you said you wanted your students to be doing.

[Needfuldoer]

1 hour ago, Niqht1 said:

They need the muscle memory.

I disagree. When it comes to user education, rote memorization of steps can backfire spectacularly. They learn how to accomplish a task in one specific version of one specific program, but then something changes and they're completely lost. (Just look at how many people lose their minds when Microsoft changes the Start Menu in ever version of Windows.)

 

I've seen this firsthand. We had users who were used to the old toolbars in Office 2003. (They had been using Office for years by this point, but they started out in the days of the typewriter and steno pool.) When we rolled out Office 2010, with the Ribbon interface concept, we had a few users who called for help constantly because the interface was "different". They couldn't even do bold text because the B "disappeared" (they changed Ribbon tabs somehow). A few eventually got used to it, but a couple raised such a stink that we eventually licensed some add-on that mimicked the old toolbars. That tided them over for a couple years, then the add-on stopped working and they threw a fit all over again.

 

The problem is the underlying, fundamental concepts of the traditional desktop paradigm are foreign to them. They're used to launching the such-and-such app, which lists all their documents and saves everything automatically. The idea that all their applications' documents are comingled in folders on a desktop, that they save deliberately and have to manage themselves, is completely alien. 

 

They would be better served in the long run by a kid-friendly "Windows for Dummies" kind of coaching, than a list of "to make this happen, click on this, then this, then that" procedures to memorize.

Edited February 20 by Needfuldoer

[ToboRobot]

1 minute ago, Needfuldoer said:

I disagree. When it comes to user education, rote memorization of steps can backfire spectacularly. They learn how to accomplish a task in one specific version of one specific program, but then something changes and they're completely lost. (Just look at how many people lose their minds when Microsoft changes the Start Menu in ever version of Windows.)

 

I've seen this firsthand. We had users who were used to the old toolbars in Office 2003. When we rolled out Office 2007, which introduced the Ribbon interface concept, we had a few users who called for help constantly because they couldn't find their button to click on. They couldn't even do bold text because the B "disappeared" (they changed Ribbon tabs somehow). A few eventually got used to it, but a couple raised such a stink that we eventually licensed some add-on that mimicked the old toolbars. That tided them over for a couple years, then the add-on stopped working and they threw a fit all over again.

 

The problem is the underlying, fundamental concepts of the traditional desktop paradigm are foreign to them. They're used to launching the such-and-such app, which lists all their documents and saves everything automatically. The idea that all their applications' documents are comingled in folders on a desktop, that they save deliberately and have to manage themselves, is completely alien. 

 

They would be better served in the long run by a kid-friendly "Windows for Dummies" kind of coaching, than a list of "to make this happen, click on this, then this, then that" procedures to memorize.

yeah, I learned to use computers by being taught to read manpages and figure it out.