Flipper Zero to be banned in Canada

[Candunc]

Quotes

Quote

ISED [Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada] will pursue all avenues to ban devices used to steal vehicles by copying the wireless signals for remote keyless entry, such as the Flipper Zero, which would allow for the removal of those devices from the Canadian marketplace through collaboration with law enforcement agencies.

 

Sources

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/news/2024/02/federal-action-on-combatting-auto-theft.html

[NobleGamer]

Uh oh, looks like instead of people buying a single device that can both read and transmit a signal, people will have to buy separate devices and connect them to do the same...

[joshfrog]

It's things like this that just really shows how bad politicians don't understand tech

[8tg]

Selling flipper zero DIY assembly kit to Canadians is how I’m going to make my millions now.

[vetali]

Better ban USB cables too, that will deter Kia/Hyundai thefts.

[TheGreatestGazoo]

It's an optics thing which is 99% of politics - government needs to show that they are trying to do something.

 

Bad guys get their hands on whatever they need to do their bad things; e.g. guns, drugs, etc. Banning casual devices that can be used to break the law does little to actually prevent crime. The deterrents need to be so high that it is no longer worth the risk for the bad guys. Having said that, security and privacy in the automotive sector has always been lacking the and manufacturers need to do better.

[Forbidden Wafer]

Instead of banning stuff, why not requiring wireless authentication to be resistant against replay attacks...

[ToboRobot]

If banning things worked to prevent criminals from doing illegal things, this would be useful.

Unfortunately it's already illegal to steal cars, and criminals don't care. 

[ToboRobot]

Just now, Forbidden Wafer said:

Instead of banning stuff, why not requiring wireless authentication to be resistant against replay attacks...

Because the problem is that the ports are so good at keeping drugs and guns out of the country that criminals are able to put trucks in shipping containers and put them on a ship overseas.

Security of the car is not the problem.  The abdication of government responsibility at the ports and also policing in general. 

Any laws to improve security will take years to take effect and won't secure millions of existing vehicles.  And it will probably make cars more expensive and not actually solve the problem. 

[Forbidden Wafer]

11 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

Any laws to improve security will take years to take effect and won't secure millions of existing vehicles.  And it will probably make cars more expensive and not actually solve the problem. 

While that is true, if you don't start now, they will continue broken. My older brother worked on a factory, and they manufactured both resistant and non-resistant, and the difference was like 5-10 cents per controller.

[starsmine]

 

29 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

If banning things worked to prevent criminals from doing illegal things, this would be useful.

Unfortunately it's already illegal to steal cars, and criminals don't care. 

I dont think anyone is under the misgiving that this will prevent all criminals
What a law like this would hit are script kiddies. 

A lot of crime is crime of opportunity, a thing being illegal does not make many people not do a thing, but the lack of opportunity will prevent them from doing a thing. 

Also, sentencing modifiers.

And stop thinking of criminals as if they are some kind of "other". That is the least productive way of addressing issues.

This is similar to putting just an insecure lock on a thing, no it does not prevent someone who is trying, but it limits casual break ins to whatever is locked.

[ToboRobot]

6 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

While that is true, if you don't start now, they will continue broken. My older brother worked on a factory, and they manufactured both resistant and non-resistant, and the difference was like 5-10 cents per controller.

No, it doesn't matter because you can just steal the car with a flat bed, put it in a sea can, ship it overseas where any system can be bypassed.  They have physical access to the car, so they can proverbially own it.

You can invest all the money in the world making the ignition system secure and some dude in a 3rd world country will bypass it or new parts will be ordered/stolen/obtained and the system will be useless.

You think organized crime will just be like, "damn they upgraded the security, this cash cow is bust, back to drugs and murder for hire?" 

[ToboRobot]

1 minute ago, starsmine said:

 

I dont think anyone is under the misgiving that this will prevent all criminals
What a law like this would hit are script kiddies. 

A lot of crime is crime of opportunity, a thing being illegal does not make many people not do a thing, but the lack of opportunity will prevent them from doing a thing. 

Also, sentencing modifiers.

This isn't just kids stealing cars because they can.  It is organized crime stealing cars and shipping them out of the country for profit. 

 

[starsmine]

4 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

This isn't just kids stealing cars because they can.  It is organized crime stealing cars and shipping them out of the country for profit. 

 

...
As if both don't exist and its exclusively one or the other.
The kia boys were a physical equivalent of script kiddies.

And even for organized crime, again, its a modifier for sentencing and flipper zero equivalents are now a just cause to investigate some group further on (for better or for worse(and personally I think for worse)). 

[Andreas Lilja]

Isn't this cumbersome to recreate? 

[aisle9]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:26 PM, vetali said:

Better ban USB cables too, that will deter Kia/Hyundai thefts.

Or you could just ban Kia and Hyundai.

[wanderingfool2]

On 2/10/2024 at 10:54 AM, ToboRobot said:

Because the problem is that the ports are so good at keeping drugs and guns out of the country that criminals are able to put trucks in shipping containers and put them on a ship overseas.

Security of the car is not the problem.  The abdication of government responsibility at the ports and also policing in general. 

Any laws to improve security will take years to take effect and won't secure millions of existing vehicles.  And it will probably make cars more expensive and not actually solve the problem. 

I do agree the port is a major issue; but the security of the cars is a major problem.

 

On a Lexus if you have the right tool you can reprogram a car key by plugging into the correct port.  Kia and the USB stick as well.  While it does take years, many newer vehicles are still being targeted and having things in place that prevent it will help reduce the problem.  This isn't something that goes away in a few days or years, it's something that will take a decade to realistically get down...and by then the cars that don't have the security will be less valuable.

 

On 2/10/2024 at 10:51 AM, Forbidden Wafer said:

Instead of banning stuff, why not requiring wireless authentication to be resistant against replay attacks...

Because technology is hard.

 

It's why Tesla's are better (but still not perfect).  Your phone acts as the key can now actively communicate.  The replay attacks work because you don't have the 2 way communication...which otherwise the keys would become more expensive and complex to make.

[ToboRobot]

I agree security can and should be improved.  But government isn't taking a helpful approach.

Are they testing, and validating product security, and rejecting products with obvious flaws?  No, preformative BS is the policy they propose.

The market will solve this problem, as insurance pricing and losses will lead to less sales and eventually improved products. 

But in the meantime, the government instead of doing anything useful like reinstating the port police force, are pointing fingers because they are responsible for failing to have a functional justice system and having some serious border issues that it ignores.

Government is in large part responsible for this problem, but refuses to accept responsibility and act.

Car companies need to figure out software before Tesla/etc eats their lunch.