Why does my new system suck compared to my old one?

[HayuPhukmiWife]

Good day gentlemen. Can any of you shed some light on why my new system with a 14th gen i-9 and a 4090 and 64gb 6000 ddr4  is seeing 40 milliseconds of system latency where my previous 10th gen i7 system with same GPU, 32gb 3200 ddr4 and a gen 3 pcie slot was not?

 

Possible win 11 vs win 10?

[Jurrunio]

How did you check system latency in the first place? Besides I doubt you can feel the difference between tens of milliseconds without using electronics of some sort so it doesn't matter in the real world. What does matter are things that take seconds, minutes if not hours to occur, say playing a video game. That's where the gains are

[Mark Kaine]

Such a weird "issue" tbh.

 

What latency,  how do you measure this? And your old system "was not"? 

 

... what other problems do you experience? 

[DrMacintosh]

What is "system latency"? Have you made sure your refresh rate is set properly on your monitors?

[Dedayog]

44 minutes ago, HayuPhukmiWife said:

Good day gentlemen. Can any of you shed some light on why my new system with a 14th gen i-9 and a 4090 and 64gb 6000 ddr4  is seeing 40 milliseconds of system latency where my previous 10th gen i7 system with same GPU, 32gb 3200 ddr4 and a gen 3 pcie slot was not?

 

Possible win 11 vs win 10?

What exactly are you seeing? 

[HayuPhukmiWife]

58 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

How did you check system latency in the first place? Besides I doubt you can feel the difference between tens of milliseconds without using electronics of some sort so it doesn't matter in the real world. What does matter are things that take seconds, minutes if not hours to occur, say playing a video game. That's where the gains are

 

53 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Such a weird "issue" tbh.

 

What latency,  how do you measure this? And your old system "was not"? 

 

... what other problems do you experience? 

 

39 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

What is "system latency"? Have you made sure your refresh rate is set properly on your monitors?

 

27 minutes ago, Dedayog said:

What exactly are you seeing? 

Playing games with the Nvidia overlay on. Used to see no more than +/- 10 under render latency. 

 

Now I've seen a few games I've played previously getting a much higher number. 

 

I'm seeing... Now this is minor

Minor hitching or skipping. Almost imperceptible except it sticks the sound for a sec... Where it kinda skips a frame or something. I would equate it to the feel of frame rate drop, but I'm not seeing that.

 

I thought maybe it was because I'm running less dlss and stuff now. Just raw resolution. 2k. Synced to monitor framerate. .5 under 165 which is where my monitors are tipped.

 

Just wondering if something isn't optimized or something.... I should be better optimized with a PSU that has proper 12VHPW feedback vs the splitter powering the gpu on my old one...i dunno.. am I reading too far into this or something?

 

 

[DrMacintosh]

Is this a fresh install of Windows? Have you removed your old chipset/graphics drivers? Is your memory set to beyond the base speed?

[HayuPhukmiWife]

12 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Is this a fresh install of Windows? Have you removed your old chipset/graphics drivers? Is your memory set to beyond the base speed?

Fresh install new nmve. Formatted the old ones. Everything freshy fresh.

Mem is set to xmp profile 1 to boost it from 4800 to 6000. Everything else is stock settings except cpu voltage is reduced to Intel settings not board settings. She was a fireball. I've ran memtest at 6k and it came back no errors. 

 

That said I heard that the 14900kf is rated to 6000. But I heard that means what it's garunteed to run. And beyond that it's luck of the lottery. You think I should turn xmp off and see what happens?

 

I did not remove drivers. But had none when I booted. Had to get them from Asus. Should have cleaned them with the full format, no?

[porina]

Something is buffering output it seems. What game is that? Does it happen in other games? 

[unclewebb]

2 hours ago, HayuPhukmiWife said:

system latency

The increased latency is real. Most users are happy to get more FPS and much higher Cinebench scores so have ignored the increased latency issues.

 

Try running LatencyMon. Here is a 10850K at 5000 MHz for comparison.

 

 

[HayuPhukmiWife]

20 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

The increased latency is real. Most users are happy to get more FPS and much higher Cinebench scores so have ignored the increased latency issues.

 

Try running LatencyMon. Here is a 10850K at 5000 MHz for comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Increased latency 

 

1 hour ago, porina said:

Something is buffering output it seems. What game is that? Does it happen in other games? 

Hogwarts legacy at max settings no dlss. Or resolution scaling.

I'll try some other games but I know I saw similar already. Also did not see it in other games.  I'll let you know

[HayuPhukmiWife]

40 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

The increased latency is real. Most users are happy to get more FPS and much higher Cinebench scores so have ignored the increased latency issues.

 

Try running LatencyMon. Here is a 10850K at 5000 MHz for comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So it makes sense maybe that I'm seeing this and not a system issue? I tried messing around with adding dlss and it had No impact here. The environment is pretty lush with lots going on in game. But I just can't imagine this would stress this system. I'll do some testing with this. Just watched the video and it gave some perspective, but I feel like the load in game should be different than in video rendering, no?

[problemsolver]

6 hours ago, HayuPhukmiWife said:

 

 

 

Playing games with the Nvidia overlay on. Used to see no more than +/- 10 under render latency. 

 

Now I've seen a few games I've played previously getting a much higher number. 

 

I'm seeing... Now this is minor

Minor hitching or skipping. Almost imperceptible except it sticks the sound for a sec... Where it kinda skips a frame or something. I would equate it to the feel of frame rate drop, but I'm not seeing that.

 

I thought maybe it was because I'm running less dlss and stuff now. Just raw resolution. 2k. Synced to monitor framerate. .5 under 165 which is where my monitors are tipped.

 

Just wondering if something isn't optimized or something.... I should be better optimized with a PSU that has proper 12VHPW feedback vs the splitter powering the gpu on my old one...i dunno.. am I reading too far into this or something?

 

 

TL;DR: Are you running the latest UEFI? You need to use Nvidia FrameView with Nvidia Overlay turned off if you actually want any accurate results on render latency. See guide at bottom of this post to collect data in Nvidia FrameView. Experiment with both the Balanced and Performance power plans.

 

Make sure you have the latest UEFI.

 

RAM timings, C-states, power settings and a myriad of other variables affect system latency. In addition, I do not trust a single video I've watched from Tech Yes City because they over-simplify complex problems, and do not follow the scientific method so that others can repeat their exact tests. In addition, some of the stuff I've heard the presenter say indicates a lack of fundamental understanding of core concepts in computing systems. The number of configurable variables in a modern PC is incredible, both in software and hardware. Tech Yes City, may reach correct conclusions, but the way they go about tests are flawed (in my own, useless opinion).

 

In addition, you have an Intel processor with P & E cores, so I have even less confidence in current tools, such as Latency Mon, in being able to measure system latency accurately. There is a lot of very complex stuff happening with Intel Thread Director that I have no doubt could affect some of the tools that measure latency. I would experiment with both the Balanced and Performance power plans to see if that affects Nvidia FrameView latency at all. This is another reason I recommend Nvidia FrameView and not some other tool. Nvidia has the resources, expertise, (and very strong incentives) to verify their tools are actually accurate. It's also built on PresentMon made by Intel

 

For Nvidia FrameView, see the guide here, specifically the collecting data portion.

 

[HayuPhukmiWife]

7 hours ago, porina said:

Something is buffering output it seems. What game is that? Does it happen in other games? 

Starfield runs fine. As do a few other games. I mean

... They all run fine. But the latency here is not al for what I've been used to seeing. Less than 10ms

[HayuPhukmiWife]

1 hour ago, problemsolver said:

TL;DR: Are you running the latest UEFI? You need to use Nvidia FrameView with Nvidia Overlay turned off if you actually want any accurate results on render latency. See guide at bottom of this post to collect data in Nvidia FrameView. Experiment with both the Balanced and Performance power plans.

 

Make sure you have the latest UEFI.

 

RAM timings, C-states, power settings and a myriad of other variables affect system latency. In addition, I do not trust a single video I've watched from Tech Yes City because they over-simplify complex problems, and do not follow the scientific method so that others can repeat their exact tests. In addition, some of the stuff I've heard the presenter say indicates a lack of fundamental understanding of core concepts in computing systems. The number of configurable variables in a modern PC is incredible, both in software and hardware. Tech Yes City, may reach correct conclusions, but the way they go about tests are flawed (in my own, useless opinion).

 

In addition, you have an Intel processor with P & E cores, so I have even less confidence in current tools, such as Latency Mon, in being able to measure system latency accurately. There is a lot of very complex stuff happening with Intel Thread Director that I have no doubt could affect some of the tools that measure latency. I would experiment with both the Balanced and Performance power plans to see if that affects Nvidia FrameView latency at all. This is another reason I recommend Nvidia FrameView and not some other tool. Nvidia has the resources, expertise, (and very strong incentives) to verify their tools are actually accurate. It's also built on PresentMon made by Intel

 

For Nvidia FrameView, see the guide here, specifically the collecting data portion.

 

You're my favourite problem solver lol. So far I've been able to take your advice to the bank. Haha I'll give this a read and tool around when I have some more time. Thanks for the info.   I read somewhere that disabling ecores used to help, but wasn't advised by Intel. Also that more recent updates have made this unnecissarry. It may have referred to more serious re set latency issues +100ms etc... 

[Mark Kaine]

10 hours ago, unclewebb said:

The increased latency is real.

its real for sure. real fear mongering from youtubers looking for the next "scandal" or real issue is everyone's guess , i guess

 

 

[Mark Kaine]

3 hours ago, HayuPhukmiWife said:

read somewhere that disabling ecores used to help

no, this actually helps, these chips are a mega fail design afterall,  but its on an application basis afaik, so good luck micromanaging this... would be way too annoying for me, and why i would never buy a fail design cpu.

 

but, besides all the "monitoring" do you actually experience real issues when using this system..?

 you didn't answer that - you don't have to, i guess.

 

 

[problemsolver]

5 hours ago, HayuPhukmiWife said:

Starfield runs fine. As do a few other games. I mean

... They all run fine. But the latency here is not al for what I've been used to seeing. Less than 10ms

My understanding was you had some minor micro stutter (that wasn't there on your old system) & that's what we're actually trying to solve. Or maybe I misunderstood? 

[porina]

5 hours ago, HayuPhukmiWife said:

Starfield runs fine. As do a few other games. I mean

... They all run fine. But the latency here is not al for what I've been used to seeing. Less than 10ms

To be clear, as you getting low or high latency in other games? If it is high in all games, it is still open as to the cause. If it is only high in one game, then it is more likely a setting for the one game.

[Mark Kaine]

35 minutes ago, porina said:

To be clear, as you getting low or high latency in other games? If it is high in all games, it is still open as to the cause. If it is only high in one game, then it is more likely a setting for the one game.

*or bad optimization,  which is more likely imo.

 

lotsa games like that (especially "AAA")

[porina]

32 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

*or bad optimization,  which is more likely imo.

According to OP it was fine on their old system. So the game dev un-optimised it since then? 

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, porina said:

According to OP it was fine on their old system. So the game dev un-optimised it since then? 

well, since im still not sure what kind of issues op is actually experiencing and missing evidence of how it was different on old system i cant really answer that, but its possible a game is more optimized for certain hardware than for other hardware,  yes.

[porina]

3 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

well, since im still not sure what kind of issues op is actually experiencing and missing evidence of how it was different on old system i cant really answer that, but its possible a game is more optimized for certain hardware than for other hardware,  yes.

It's as they say, system latency as displayed by the nvidia overlay is much higher. If only one game is affected, that would point towards some setting in that game that might not be consistently set between the two scenarios. If everything is affected, it opens it up somewhat. Same GPU, the known variables are the CPU, ram, and OS.

[Mark Kaine]

21 minutes ago, porina said:

It's as they say, system latency as displayed by the nvidia overlay is much higher. If only one game is affected, that would point towards some setting in that game that might not be consistently set between the two scenarios. If everything is affected, it opens it up somewhat. Same GPU, the known variables are the CPU, ram, and OS.

ok... but... why trust this "overlay" (it's extremely buggy in my experience, it also makes my pc laggy as hell... ironically)

 

that's why i keep asking if they actually experience issues, and since i never get an answer i will draw my own conclusions. 

 

so how to fix this?

 

ddu gpu driver, *do never use nvidia overlay again* use hwinfo64 instead.  Should be simple enough. 

[porina]

Just now, Mark Kaine said:

ok... but... why trust this "overlay" (it's extremely buggy in my experience, it also makes my pc laggy as hell... ironically)

If I remember correctly you run very particular versions and settings for things. I'm amazed you don't have more problems. I trust nvidia to know what they're doing more than you know what you're doing.

 

It does have problems but more in not recognising some games for whatever reason. Presentmon is probably best in class at the moment, although RTSS remains popular. RTSS is based on presentmon anyway.