Why some cables cost so much - The Adam Savage video.

[RONOTHAN##]

15 minutes ago, BrandonLatzig said:

I don't believe he ever said he was immensely knowledgable about computers

He has, in fact, said the exact opposite, that his knowledge of electronics is passible at best. For the types of stuff he does, that's all it needs to be. The man is a craftsman, not a computer scientist. 

 

I have some qualms with that video and how it was framed, but it's far from the worst piece of content ever put onto the internet. From just the standpoint of looking at CT scans of cables, it's a little interesting and how the different types of cables need different things. The fact that Apple they emphasized one cable was Apple (either intentionally or not) was a bit weird, but seeing as how a lot of the people who watch that channel are more makers than electrical engineers marketing it somewhat with the "Apple high end" vibe makes a some sense. It was definitely supposed to be entertainment more than it was informative, the framing just had it seem like the balance was a little bit more towards informative than it actually was. 

[starsmine]

46 minutes ago, MarcWolfe said:

"OMG, a signal repeater... wow, so much compute." Said nobody competent in the subject matter. Differential signals are nothing new, and require literally 0 compute, and equal trace length matters there. DATA is ALWAYS in bits; and the thunderbolt controller in the computer does the multiplexing, not the damn cable. Man, Displayport to VGA adapters would really blow their minds. "Let's compare a thunderbolt cable to a USB 2.0 type C cable"... "nobody's twisting their mustache to rob you"... I beg to differ; in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple had some round-about legally removed way of sponsoring this without disclosure, to make their shit look like it's 1000 years ahead of everything else. This is a far cry from the Mythbusters level testing I respected and enjoyed as a kid. 

 

It's like they all fucked off, smoked some epic pot, then looked at some rainbow pictures. That's how intelligent this was. I have experience with smoking pot daily for over a month... this is what that's like; incompetent jackassery.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD5aAd8Oy84

Bro.

People see Thunderbolt cables and do think the cable maker is taking the piss. BECAUSE historically, a USB cable like that would be. 
The video shows that an active Thunderbolt does cost a magnitude more than a USB charging cable, and even a USB data cable

The fact that Apple charges 130 vs 70-80 is really neither here nor there. Neither price is criminal. Apple cable you know will meet or exceed the spec vs seeing some brand you never heard of charging 100 with all the craziness around USB 3.x that may not meet a spec and is taking the piss. 

There are parts that could have been better communicated, yes. but no they are not smoking anything. Nothing they stated was wrong. 

They also said, for strictly charging at 5v, the cheap ones will do just fine. 

[MarcWolfe]

18 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

more than it was informative, the framing just had it seem like the balance was a little bit more towards informative than it actually was. 

1st intelligent reply. Thank you.

[MarcWolfe]

13 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Nothing they stated was wrong. 

... um, bullshit. There's no useful logic in the cable; the cable doesn't do any data stream muxxing. The closest thing to "logic" that it could have, is EEPROM functionality, enough to tell the computer (USB/Thunderbolt controller) "I'm new and can handle this recent, pulled out of the ass of USB org, wattage spec", and to tell a MAC "i'm legit Apple; don't work with the other Thunderbolt cables".

Edited November 3, 2023 by MarcWolfe
additional info and punctuation

[atxcyclist]

14 minutes ago, MarcWolfe said:

... um, bullshit. There's no useful logic in the cable; the cable doesn't do any data stream muxxing. The closest thing to "logic" that it could have, is EEPROM functionality, enough to tell the computer (USB/Thunderbolt controller) "I'm new and can handle this recent, pulled out of the ass of USB org, wattage spec", and to tell a MAC "i'm legit Apple; don't work with the other Thunderbolt cables".

Not to jump in too deep here, but I'm using a $25 Thunderbolt 4/USB 4 cable with my Mac Studio and have had zero issues. 

[starsmine]

30 minutes ago, MarcWolfe said:

... um, bullshit. There's no useful logic in the cable; the cable doesn't do any data stream muxxing.

Active thunderbolt 4 does more then just reapeating. 

This is the large chip in there, the big one on the BGA socket 
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intel/JHL7040-S-RGWR?qs=DRkmTr78QAQ3nzlERQUCVA%3D%3D
The repeaters have to keep it all in spec. there is no way to do that without a bunch of retiming with DACs, and ADCs

The chip has firmware, its smart. Hell it has KNOWN software bugs. 

There are also a few other chips on that board. 

This is the other chip on the board, the smaller one (specifically the CYPDC1186B2 revision
https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-EZ-PD_CCG3PA2_DATASHEET_USB_TYPE-C_PORT_CONTROLLER-DataSheet-v01_00-EN.pdf?fileId=8ac78c8c80027ecd01802832031e7f37
It has a full on ARM CPU in there.

A FULL ON ARM CPU.
Its not just a repeater.

And there are two of them, per cable

There is also another chip that I dont know, all I see is that its intel 802.3cd Looks new and completely under NDA. No idea what it does.

[MarcWolfe]

52 minutes ago, starsmine said:

It has a full on ARM CPU in there.

I'll repeat what i said about USEFUL logic. 

I'll concede ONLY to the re-timing point\; but only because it's slightly beyond my certainty, and I don't care to go down the necessary rabbit hole right now.

Edited November 3, 2023 by MarcWolfe
expounding detail

[TimedPing]

1 hour ago, imreloadin said:

Jesus, you're acting like Adam fucked your wife. Chill out bruh.

bro wake up and choose violence

[LogicalDrm]

4 hours ago, MarcWolfe said:

"OMG, a signal repeater... wow, so much compute." Said nobody competent in the subject matter. Differential signals are nothing new, and require literally 0 compute, and equal trace length matters there. DATA is ALWAYS in bits; and the thunderbolt controller in the computer does the multiplexing, not the damn cable. Man, Displayport to VGA adapters would really blow their minds. "Let's compare a thunderbolt cable to a USB 2.0 type C cable"... "nobody's twisting their mustache to rob you"... I beg to differ; in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple had some round-about legally removed way of sponsoring this without disclosure, to make their shit look like it's 1000 years ahead of everything else. This is a far cry from the Mythbusters level testing I respected and enjoyed as a kid. 

 

It's like they all fucked off, smoked some epic pot, then looked at some rainbow pictures. That's how intelligent this was. I have experience with smoking pot daily for over a month... this is what that's like; incompetent jackassery.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD5aAd8Oy84

Merged to existing discussion on this video.

 

The other reason is to keep things less confusing. It's whole another channel (Tested) of which your complain is about. You don't mention it in your main post, it would only show after clicking the link (as it doesn't embed correctly). Only mention is reference to Mythbusters which is only clear AFTER you are aware of which "Adam" you are talking about.

 

LMG has employee named Adam. This being LMG's community forum, logical first assumption is that you are talking about LMG employee and the top context would make this similar to first take on the Drama.

[Blue4130]

7 hours ago, MarcWolfe said:

I'll repeat what i said about USEFUL logic. 

I'll concede ONLY to the re-timing point\; but only because it's slightly beyond my certainty, and I don't care to go down the necessary rabbit hole right now.

Define Useful vs unuseful logic please.

[BrandonLatzig]

4 hours ago, LogicalDrm said:

 

LMG has employee named Adam.

I will be honest, this is what I thought of when I originally clicked, though I don't remember who adam is at LMG

[LogicalDrm]

2 hours ago, BrandonLatzig said:

I will be honest, this is what I thought of when I originally clicked, though I don't remember who adam is at LMG

There are actually two of which one is writer. Which does make this really confusing if skimmed or just seen title.

[BrandonLatzig]

13 minutes ago, LogicalDrm said:

There are actually two of which one is writer. Which does make this really confusing if skimmed or just seen title.

Whats even funnier is the guy who I am thinking of I dont think is adam. I believe its like the main host for tech quickie? At least in older videos he admitted in not being extremely tech savvy

[MarcWolfe]

9 hours ago, LogicalDrm said:

Merged to existing discussion on this video.

 

The other reason is to keep things less confusing. It's whole another channel (Tested) of which your complain is about. You don't mention it in your main post, it would only show after clicking the link (as it doesn't embed correctly). Only mention is reference to Mythbusters which is only clear AFTER you are aware of which "Adam" you are talking about.

 

LMG has employee named Adam. This being LMG's community forum, logical first assumption is that you are talking about LMG employee and the top context would make this similar to first take on the Drama.

I'm sure, even here, Adam Savage is more well known than whatever the fuck the other Adam's last name is. 

What year is this that I have to do a damn thing for a youtube link to auto embed?

Edited November 3, 2023 by MarcWolfe
spelling and punctuation for readabillity

[MarcWolfe]

4 hours ago, Blue4130 said:

Define Useful vs unuseful logic please.

It's a 1 to 1 cable, nothing.

[LogicalDrm]

11 minutes ago, MarcWolfe said:

I'm sure, even here, Adam Savage is more well known than whatever the fuck the other Adam's last name is. 

What year is this that I have to do a damn thing for a youtube link to auto embed?

Not without context his not. In your original post, only reference to who and what you are talking about until the link is "Mythbusters". Which considering this isn't Tested's forum, just isn't enough.

[MarcWolfe]

2 minutes ago, LogicalDrm said:

Not without context his not. In your original post, only reference to who and what you are talking about until the link is "Mythbusters". Which considering this isn't Tested's forum, just isn't enough.

It'd be enough if the link auto embedded. Don't blame me for this site's deficiencies.

[starsmine]

17 minutes ago, MarcWolfe said:

I'm sure even here Adam Savage is more well known that whatever the fuck the other Adam's last name is. 

What year is this that I have to do a damn thing for a youtube link to auto embed?

its not that Adam Savage isn't more well known. Its context. 

posting about Adam in LTT forums has us all assume an Adam from LTT before we assume Savage.

Also, they do auto embed, you turned it off by posting it as a hyperlink 
 

14 minutes ago, MarcWolfe said:

It's a 1 to 1 cable, nothing.

That was the least helpful definition. 
High-speed signal reconditioning requires logic.

hell even at lowspeed it does. 

Analog to digital converters need logic, you have to buffer, Error correct and retime it all. 

[MarcWolfe]

And if we're going to so heavily use "this is LTT forum" as our standard for judging things, it's enough. 

[MarcWolfe]

12 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Analog to digital converters need logic

And that has nothing to do with thunderbolt. 

I'm aware everything is essentially analog (because physics), not that I think that was going to be part of your point.

[starsmine]

14 minutes ago, MarcWolfe said:

And that has nothing to do with thunderbolt. 

I'm aware everything is essentially analog (because physics), not that I think that was going to be part of your point.

broski. 
the signals look like this

Yes, they are digital signals... but even a square wave is an analog wave. 

Also, a generic retimer for you


Go have fun https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/serial-bus-white-paper.pdf


This is an early concpet block diagram of what thunderbolt needs

I don't know what changes or additions have been made since then. This was them looking at pci 3. 
Thunderbolt 4 is 4 pcie 3 lanes.  
And it needs to also be protocal aware to switch between all the USB standards as well as shove well over 100W without emfing itself to death. 

[MarcWolfe]

7 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Yes, they are digital signals... but even a square wave is an analog wave.

You say that as if I didn't.

7 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Also, a generic retimer for you

I made a statement on retiming already. Where's the mux?

[QuantumSingularity]

The first time when i really came face to face with the reality of the so called "overpriced" cables vs regular ones was when i was buying a new USB-C cable for my P30 Pro phone. Before that i was using the original cable included in the box. It got destroyed by my cat in less than 6 months. Went to a local tech market and saw a promo on some nice HAMA cables and a really beautiful braided USB-C cable grabbed my attention. Even with the already massive discount of 40% it was still over 3 times more expensive than the usual "OEM" cables. Bought it, came back home, plugged it in my charging adapter, the very same i've been using with my phone since the day i bought it and... wait... wtf??? Supercharging???? Instantly thought something was f-ed up. Unplugged it and plugged in the USB-C cable i had from my old P20 Pro phone.. hmmm FastCharge only. Went to my car and got the cable i have in there, plugged it in... still FastCharge only. The moment i plugged that expensive cable, SuperCharge became instantly available. It also enabled FastCharging in my car, hooked to my standard 12V car charger adapter, which wasn't available before that. After a few weeks tried that with the USB cable my dad has on his Mate 20 Pro and my mom's S20 Ultra, both using still their original included cables and instantly SuperCharge and Ultra Charging became available. This cable has been with me for over 3 years now and looks as new as the day i bought it. Since then i've been switching all of my cables i regularly use to top quality ones and it worked magic for my experience. Not only with USB, but HDMI and DP as well. So yeah - my opinion changed 180°... from "naaah, just snake skin oil" to "holly sh*t, this really works and makes a difference". 

[BrandonLatzig]

8 hours ago, starsmine said:

broski. 
the signals look like this

Yes, they are digital signals... but even a square wave is an analog wave. 

Also, a generic retimer for you


Go have fun https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/serial-bus-white-paper.pdf


This is an early concpet block diagram of what thunderbolt needs

I don't know what changes or additions have been made since then. This was them looking at pci 3. 
Thunderbolt 4 is 4 pcie 3 lanes.  
And it needs to also be protocal aware to switch between all the USB standards as well as shove well over 100W without emfing itself to death. 

Dude, you just cant post all of this highly technical stuff!
I just scooped my brain back into my head and its gonna leak back out now!

[MarcWolfe]

7 minutes ago, BrandonLatzig said:

Dude, you just cant post all of this highly technical stuff!
I just scooped my brain back into my head and its gonna leak back out now!

Don't worry too much about it; it's an over complicated method anyway.  

The most modern HDMI standards meet or exceed 40 Gbit. HDMI has a reference clock; don't need to re-time that.