ATX 3.0 really required for 40 series nvidia?

[cluelessgenius]

so ive noticed that some 4070 models have the 16pin pcie5 connector and some have a single 8pin old style connector. i know about the adapters but now im wondering how neccessary is the atx3 standard because if gigabyte makes a 4070 with an 8 pin that cant talk to the psu then do i need an atx3 psu at all. i remember something about power spikes but again the fact that they offer both variants confuses me.

[filpo]

1 minute ago, cluelessgenius said:

then do i need an atx3 psu at all

you don't need it

 

1 minute ago, cluelessgenius said:

remember something about power spikes but again the fact that they offer both variants confuses me.

that's not really prominent with the 40 series. More with the 30 series

 

1 minute ago, cluelessgenius said:

i know about the adapters but now im wondering how neccessary is the atx3 standard

I'd say just get a pcie 5.0 psu like this one MSI A1000G PCIE5 1000 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (MPG A1000G PCIE 5) - PCPartPicker

 

Or this one Thermaltake Toughpower GF A3 - TT Premium Edition 1050 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (PS-TPD-1050FNFAGU-L) - PCPartPicker

[cluelessgenius]

14 minutes ago, filpo said:

I'd say just get a pcie 5.0 psu like this one MSI A1000G PCIE5 1000 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (MPG A1000G PCIE 5) - PCPartPicker

 

Or this one Thermaltake Toughpower GF A3 - TT Premium Edition 1050 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (PS-TPD-1050FNFAGU-L) - PCPartPicker

well those are both atx3 so that feels like conflicting information to me, no? also 1000W for 70 card with "200W" on the spec sheet?

[filpo]

3 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

well those are both atx3 so that feels like conflicting information to me, no?

yes but if you can get it for that price then why not?

 

4 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

also 1000W for 70 card with "200W" on the spec sheet?

 

It's a common misconception but apparently bigger is better

[cluelessgenius]

1 minute ago, filpo said:

It's a common misconception but apparently bigger is better

well to be honest im trying to cut cost a bit on the psu or even thinking about recycling an old corsair sf600 i still have lying around

[filpo]

1 minute ago, cluelessgenius said:

about recycling an old corsair sf600 i still have lying around

how old? I'd say that might be your best bet

[podkall]

26 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

"200W" on the spec sheet?

that's TDP = cooling required for the card to not overheat

 

recommended PSU is 600W and transient spikes also exist

[porina]

50 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

so ive noticed that some 4070 models have the 16pin pcie5 connector and some have a single 8pin old style connector. i know about the adapters but now im wondering how neccessary is the atx3 standard because if gigabyte makes a 4070 with an 8 pin that cant talk to the psu then do i need an atx3 psu at all. i remember something about power spikes but again the fact that they offer both variants confuses me.

4070 is nominally a baseline 200W board power. A single 8 pin + 12V rail from PCIe slot gives you around 215W. There's very little headroom there. Maybe ok for a low end model, not for a higher end one.

[cluelessgenius]

46 minutes ago, filpo said:

how old? I'd say that might be your best bet

if i checked it right it seems to be 2016 but i hasnt seen use for a couple of years now

 

31 minutes ago, podkall said:

recommended PSU is 600W and transient spikes also exist

spikes? @filpo mentioned it wasnt a problem with 40 series anymore?

 

22 minutes ago, porina said:

4070 is nominally a baseline 200W board power. A single 8 pin + 12V rail from PCIe slot gives you around 215W. There's very little headroom there. Maybe ok for a low end model, not for a higher end one.

https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-N4070WF3OC-12GD/sp#sp

 

[Bagzie]

3 hours ago, podkall said:

that's TDP = cooling required for the card to not overheat

 

recommended PSU is 600W and transient spikes also exist

The 4070 uses 200w of power , Transients on it are very low.

 

They list total board power not thermal design power , Why would a card that comes with a cooler list TDP? That's for cpus to help people get an aftermarket cooler.

 

OP a 4070 will run absolutely fine on any reasonable quality 600w psu with a 3700X.

 

My 7900XT has 2 x 8 pins and runs at 355w with spikes to nearly 500w at times , A modern day psu can handle transients and the 4070 transients are a hell of alot lower than my card.

[porina]

9 hours ago, cluelessgenius said:

https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-N4070WF3OC-12GD/sp#sp

If you want a GPU to plug in and just use as is, it is probably fine. There is a factory overclock but almost a joke to call it one. Their spec page lists a core clock of 2490 vs reference 2475. That's 0.6% OC.

 

Take a high end model like the ROG Strix. That defaults to 2610 with optional further OC mode of 2640, which are over 5% factory OCs. This likely can't happen with a single 8 pin connector.

[cluelessgenius]

21 minutes ago, porina said:

Take a high end model like the ROG Strix. That defaults to 2610 with optional further OC mode of 2640, which are over 5% factory OCs. This likely can't happen with a single 8 pin connector.

thats an 800 € card and a totally different budget. im not trying to get oc out of it. im trying to build the best read to use / no support calls system for the teenage son of a collegue

 

[cluelessgenius]

7 hours ago, Bagzie said:

OP a 4070 will run absolutely fine on any reasonable quality 600w psu with a 3700X.

well the plan would be the gigabyte 4070 (just cause its the cheapest triple fan model from a brand i recognize) and a ryzen 5 7600 (cause everyone seem to recommend that right now)

 

7 hours ago, Bagzie said:

A modern day psu can handle transients and the 4070 transients are a hell of alot lower than my card.

well again, its a 2016 Corsair SF600...modern enough?

[DoctorNick]

12 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

well the plan would be the gigabyte 4070 (just cause its the cheapest triple fan model from a brand i recognize) and a ryzen 5 7600 (cause everyone seem to recommend that right now)

 

well again, its a 2016 Corsair SF600...modern enough?

Yes should be fine. At least try it out  

[D2ultima]

10 hours ago, cluelessgenius said:

spikes? @filpo mentioned it wasnt a problem with 40 series anymore?

 

power spikes 100% exist, but I wouldn't worry about them unless you're very close to maximum PSU power and likely to trip it

7 hours ago, Bagzie said:

They list total board power not thermal design power , Why would a card that comes with a cooler list TDP? That's for cpus to help people get an aftermarket cooler.

 

The more correct term would be TGP for Total Graphics Power, but it's not recognizable to enough people so they just call it TDP... however CPU TDP is and has been the power limit 1 value for all intel CPUs since as far back as their 2nd gen core series (I am unsure about 1st gen and prior, and it's too old to matter right now).

 

I understand why people say "TDP" is meant for the coolers, and to a degree coolers do speak in TDP, but considering their performance varies based on contact size per chip, with some generations being very easy to cool and others not for various reasons, you can just ignore it. It will be a lot less complicated if you ignore it, and also if you realize that TDP is useless for non-laptops because almost everyone buys unlocked CPUs and boards that let you unlock PL1 to astronomical levels anyway.

56 minutes ago, porina said:

Take a high end model like the ROG Strix. That defaults to 2610 with optional further OC mode of 2640, which are over 5% factory OCs. This likely can't happen with a single 8 pin connector.

It absolutely can, and likely without much difficulty. Overclocking Nvidia cards since Pascal has allowed you to generally raise the performance at similar power draw, because the voltage associated with the clockspeed (and the memory clocks/type) are what mostly determine performance. If they ACTUALLY just overclocked it (I.E. raised the stock clocks in a similar manner to what you would achieve with an overclock software like afterburner) then the power draw would make almost no difference.

13 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

well the plan would be the gigabyte 4070 (just cause its the cheapest triple fan model from a brand i recognize) and a ryzen 5 7600 (cause everyone seem to recommend that right now)

 

well again, its a 2016 Corsair SF600...modern enough?

Gigabyte has been having problems with their GPUs' PCBs cracking. I do not remember if it only affected the 4090s, but I would 100% avoid them. Get a MSI instead, they have good cards this generation, and a 4070 doesn't use that much power; the Ventus 2X OC should be great and is $550 USD according to PCPP so should also be rather cheap.

 

As for R5 7600, it's a fine gaming chip, but for overall system usage (especially if you multitask like watching videos or streams while you play, or stream yourself, etc) I would suggest grabbing a 13600K or something instead. I know a lot of people like to recommend AMD, but those E-cores make a system so smooth and lovely to use it's just magical in my experience, especially if you use Windows 11 for it. If you still want the AMD, by all means go for it, buy my vote goes to intel until AMD gets similar tech to E-cores.

[cluelessgenius]

14 minutes ago, D2ultima said:

I would suggest grabbing a 13600K or something instead.

i get that but even a 13600 non-k plus board are 100€ more than the amd alternative and that seems to be the case with every (im sure justified) reccomendation. and if i pick the slightly better cpu and the slightly better gpu and the slightly better psu and and and then i end up closer to 2k then the 1,5k max i was given

[D2ultima]

2 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

i get that but even a 13600 non-k plus board are 100€ more than the amd alternative and that seems to be the case with every (im sure justified) reccomendation. and if i pick the slightly better cpu and the slightly better gpu and the slightly better psu and and and then i end up closer to 2k then the 1,5k max i was given

Do you have a PC Part Picker set up?

[cluelessgenius]

6 minutes ago, D2ultima said:

Do you have a PC Part Picker set up?

im in germany and ppp doesnt really give the cheapest prizes here so im using geizhals.de (a german site)

 

heres the temporary list if youre interested.

https://geizhals.de/wishlists/3397152

 

i might change the gpu to a different brand based on your recommendation and possible strike the psu completly off the list if i can use the sf600 i have (id probably sell it to him for like 70 bucks so he would save an even 100€)

[cluelessgenius]

34 minutes ago, D2ultima said:

Gigabyte has been having problems with their GPUs' PCBs cracking

honestly the options for triple fan 4070s dont look good to me budget wise

 

 

should i consider dual fan options?

 

[Bagzie]

3 hours ago, D2ultima said:

power spikes 100% exist, but I wouldn't worry about them unless you're very close to maximum PSU power and likely to trip it

The more correct term would be TGP for Total Graphics Power, but it's not recognizable to enough people so they just call it TDP... however CPU TDP is and has been the power limit 1 value for all intel CPUs since as far back as their 2nd gen core series (I am unsure about 1st gen and prior, and it's too old to matter right now).

 

I understand why people say "TDP" is meant for the coolers, and to a degree coolers do speak in TDP, but considering their performance varies based on contact size per chip, with some generations being very easy to cool and others not for various reasons, you can just ignore it. It will be a lot less complicated if you ignore it, and also if you realize that TDP is useless for non-laptops because almost everyone buys unlocked CPUs and boards that let you unlock PL1 to astronomical levels anyway.

It absolutely can, and likely without much difficulty. Overclocking Nvidia cards since Pascal has allowed you to generally raise the performance at similar power draw, because the voltage associated with the clockspeed (and the memory clocks/type) are what mostly determine performance. If they ACTUALLY just overclocked it (I.E. raised the stock clocks in a similar manner to what you would achieve with an overclock software like afterburner) then the power draw would make almost no difference.

Gigabyte has been having problems with their GPUs' PCBs cracking. I do not remember if it only affected the 4090s, but I would 100% avoid them. Get a MSI instead, they have good cards this generation, and a 4070 doesn't use that much power; the Ventus 2X OC should be great and is $550 USD according to PCPP so should also be rather cheap.

 

As for R5 7600, it's a fine gaming chip, but for overall system usage (especially if you multitask like watching videos or streams while you play, or stream yourself, etc) I would suggest grabbing a 13600K or something instead. I know a lot of people like to recommend AMD, but those E-cores make a system so smooth and lovely to use it's just magical in my experience, especially if you use Windows 11 for it. If you still want the AMD, by all means go for it, buy my vote goes to intel until AMD gets similar tech to E-cores.

Those same e cores are known for causing issues for gaming , Its a double edged sword.

 

Productivity wise yes they are very good but there's games still releasing in 2023 that have issues.

 

AC Mirage for example benefits greatly from disabling them.

[cluelessgenius]

3 minutes ago, Bagzie said:

Those same e cores are known for causing issues for gaming , Its a double edged sword.

 

Productivity wise yes they are very good but there's games still releasing in 2023 that have issues.

 

AC Mirage for example benefits greatly from disabling them.

since im trying to get the price down, not up, its not an option anyway

[D2ultima]

4 hours ago, cluelessgenius said:

honestly the options for triple fan 4070s dont look good to me budget wise

 

should i consider dual fan options?

This is why I suggested the Ventus 2X OC actually. The cooling on the triple fan cards isn't necessary, especially for the 4070.

4 hours ago, cluelessgenius said:

im in germany and ppp doesnt really give the cheapest prizes here so im using geizhals.de (a german site)

 

heres the temporary list if youre interested.

https://geizhals.de/wishlists/3397152

 

i might change the gpu to a different brand based on your recommendation and possible strike the psu completly off the list if i can use the sf600 i have (id probably sell it to him for like 70 bucks so he would save an even 100€)

I would cut the water cooling for the CPU and get one of the following; they should be very cheap-

 

Thermalright Frost Commander 140

Thermalright Phantom Spirit

Thermalright Peerless Assassin

Deepcool AK 620

 

The frost commander stands out a little in performance, but otherwise these all perform fairly similarly and if you see one much cheaper than the rest, take them. They will save you quite a bit.

 

You should be able to find 6000MHz RAM for a similar price or even cheaper (especially if going intel)
 

I see your point about the motherboard for intel, I was going to suggest the MSI Z790 Pro A WIFI but it probably will still be expensive over there, which you don't want. In your case I suppose aiming for a 1500 euro limit or thereabouts might just be problematic

 

Is the case a hard choice? mITX necessary? Cheaper cases and generally comparable mobos are afoot if not necessary. I can vouch for a fractal design pop air as I'm using it right now and it's been quite good

 

Whether he keeps that CPU or gets a 13600k, 600W is more than enough for those chips + a 4070 which will only draw roughly 200W. 

 

That's the best fiddling advice I could give, whether he/you/both choose to stick to AMD or not. At least the CPU cooler choice will be good

1 hour ago, Bagzie said:

Those same e cores are known for causing issues for gaming , Its a double edged sword.

 

Productivity wise yes they are very good but there's games still releasing in 2023 that have issues.

 

AC Mirage for example benefits greatly from disabling them.

I moved from intel to intel
I have access to AMD

I have access to another intel with E-cores

 

The experience of using a system with E-cores is pretty much incomparable if it's on W11 IMO. As for games that have issues, the vast majority of them do not gain massive amounts of fps by disabling e-cores, and the overall benefits of e-cores are better. Plus all of my friends who are enthusiasts and have used an AMD system for quite a while have complained about random stutters, so I'mma leave that as a knock too.

 

You say it's double edged sword but to me if anything it's like a greatsword for attacking and a butter knife for hitting oneself.

[Bagzie]

1 hour ago, D2ultima said:

This is why I suggested the Ventus 2X OC actually. The cooling on the triple fan cards isn't necessary, especially for the 4070.

I would cut the water cooling for the CPU and get one of the following; they should be very cheap-

 

Thermalright Frost Commander 140

Thermalright Phantom Spirit

Thermalright Peerless Assassin

Deepcool AK 620

 

The frost commander stands out a little in performance, but otherwise these all perform fairly similarly and if you see one much cheaper than the rest, take them. They will save you quite a bit.

 

You should be able to find 6000MHz RAM for a similar price or even cheaper (especially if going intel)
 

I see your point about the motherboard for intel, I was going to suggest the MSI Z790 Pro A WIFI but it probably will still be expensive over there, which you don't want. In your case I suppose aiming for a 1500 euro limit or thereabouts might just be problematic

 

Is the case a hard choice? mITX necessary? Cheaper cases and generally comparable mobos are afoot if not necessary. I can vouch for a fractal design pop air as I'm using it right now and it's been quite good

 

Whether he keeps that CPU or gets a 13600k, 600W is more than enough for those chips + a 4070 which will only draw roughly 200W. 

 

That's the best fiddling advice I could give, whether he/you/both choose to stick to AMD or not. At least the CPU cooler choice will be good

I moved from intel to intel
I have access to AMD

I have access to another intel with E-cores

 

The experience of using a system with E-cores is pretty much incomparable if it's on W11 IMO. As for games that have issues, the vast majority of them do not gain massive amounts of fps by disabling e-cores, and the overall benefits of e-cores are better. Plus all of my friends who are enthusiasts and have used an AMD system for quite a while have complained about random stutters, so I'mma leave that as a knock too.

 

You say it's double edged sword but to me if anything it's like a greatsword for attacking and a butter knife for hitting oneself.

E cores have been a common issue for many games for alot of time and it's well documented so your subjective experience doesn't trump objective data I'm afraid.

 

Same goes for your friends.

 

There's a reason people with basically unlimited budgets still chose a 7800X3D in most cases if there main priority is gaming.

[D2ultima]

9 minutes ago, Bagzie said:

E cores have been a common issue for many games for alot of time and it's well documented so your subjective experience doesn't trump objective data I'm afraid.

 

Same goes for your friends.

 

There's a reason people with basically unlimited budgets still chose a 7800X3D in most cases if there main priority is gaming.

I'd really love to see this plethora of games where having E-cores on is a large detriment to the experience, since all I can think of where it makes a marked difference off the top of my head is in CS2 (which Valve is fixing already) and your aforementioned Assassin's Creed, where.. it's a ubishit game, I don't expect much else.

 

Not just my friends, how about the tons of people on this post who keep talking about issues they had on AMD platform that just wasn't present on intel?

 

Yes, because they either

1 - Close everything and game and just want the most possible CPU-limited FPS, and this is all they realistically care about for a PC

2 - Don't know what they're missing

 

Just because something is popular doesn't mean it doesn't have downsides, you act like AMD is flawless and intel just has issues. It's not the case, or even close to it. I never denied 7800X3D was usually the most fps for games, I simply said the rest of the benefits from e-core tech just outweigh the slight reduction in max FPS you'll get for some titles. And for that simplified reason, my judgement is intel is better until AMD makes similar tech, and probably raises RAM speed support for DDR5

[Bagzie]

13 minutes ago, D2ultima said:

I'd really love to see this plethora of games where having E-cores on is a large detriment to the experience, since all I can think of where it makes a marked difference off the top of my head is in CS2 (which Valve is fixing already) and your aforementioned Assassin's Creed, where.. it's a ubishit game, I don't expect much else.

 

Not just my friends, how about the tons of people on this post who keep talking about issues they had on AMD platform that just wasn't present on intel?

 

Yes, because they either

1 - Close everything and game and just want the most possible CPU-limited FPS, and this is all they realistically care about for a PC

2 - Don't know what they're missing

 

Just because something is popular doesn't mean it doesn't have downsides, you act like AMD is flawless and intel just has issues. It's not the case, or even close to it. I never denied 7800X3D was usually the most fps for games, I simply said the rest of the benefits from e-core tech just outweigh the slight reduction in max FPS you'll get for some titles. And for that simplified reason, my judgement is intel is better until AMD makes similar tech, and probably raises RAM speed support for DDR5

Title of the reddit thread "Why you chose intel over am5". , I could find another post about why people chose am5 over intel...

 

That's now how you get a balanced opinion.

 

The list of games are alot more than you think , There's a hell of alot of games that get better performance with the e cores disabled , Not quite as crippling as the two you mentioned but there is an effect.

 

I never said AMD doesn't have issues and I didn't say intel only has issues , I think e cores are a good idea but there not some magic sauce that makes everything better.

 

But your original post was a puff peice about how great e-cores where and I felt the downsides of them needed to be explained.

 

My 12700H laptop has e cores that give it better productivity than my old 10900k pc.

 

My 7800X3D is just as snappy as my 12700H in windows though which isn't surprising since an 8 core cpu is not exactly stressed by windows.

 

If I had more emphasis on productivity which I really don't then I would still buy a 7950X over a 13900K because at a sensible wattage like 120w it kicks the crap out of it.