Quebec passes "anti-lemon" law to protect consumers from planned obsolescence.

[Flogisto]

Worth discussing in techlinked? Important steps to curb planned obsolescence from car, electronics manufacturers.

 

SOURCE: https://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/quebec-passes-bill-outlawing-planned-obsolescence

 

[Kisai]

Yet another reason why companies don't sell to/in Quebec.

 

If this came from the federal government of Canada, maybe it would matter, but foreign companies already avoid Quebec, and even companies in other parts of Canada won't open in Quebec because of the absurd bureaucracy surrounding languages and taxes.

 

[Holmes108]

33 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Yet another reason why companies don't sell to/in Quebec.

 

If this came from the federal government of Canada, maybe it would matter, but foreign companies already avoid Quebec, and even companies in other parts of Canada won't open in Quebec because of the absurd bureaucracy surrounding languages and taxes.

 

 

Right.

 

And also, while a noble idea, how do you prove something has a limited life "deliberately". A lot of the time, it's a matter of money and effort. Many things could be made to last nearly forever if you dump enough time, technology and materials into it. But where's the limit?

 

The light bulb is a decent example. It was a balance of longevity vs. brightness/color. Or if I want to make an "affordable" table, or a solid oak table. 

 

Making reasonable warranty periods for products seems doable. But using terms like "planned obsolescence", which I believe is very real, and very annoying, is also very vague.

[BrandonLatzig]

9 hours ago, Holmes108 said:

 

Right.

 

And also, while a noble idea, how do you prove something has a limited life "deliberately". A lot of the time, it's a matter of money and effort. Many things could be made to last nearly forever if you dump enough time, technology and materials into it. But where's the limit?

 

The light bulb is a decent example. It was a balance of longevity vs. brightness/color. Or if I want to make an "affordable" table, or a solid oak table. 

 

Making reasonable warranty periods for products seems doable. But using terms like "planned obsolescence", which I believe is very real, and very annoying, is also very vague.

I also agree, I would have to look into the law, but wouldn't it have been better to work on right to repair instead of supposedly banning planned oobsolenscense (Unless this is literally the law, which I doubt, push comes to shove, companies will submit to right to repair)

[Andreas Lilja]

On 10/4/2023 at 12:20 PM, Kisai said:

Yet another reason why companies don't sell to/in Quebec.

 

If this came from the federal government of Canada, maybe it would matter, but foreign companies already avoid Quebec, and even companies in other parts of Canada won't open in Quebec because of the absurd bureaucracy surrounding languages and taxes.

 

Customers should be entitled to buy products in their language. 

[Kisai]

37 minutes ago, Andreas Lilja said:

Customers should be entitled to buy products in their language. 

Last time I checked, English is an official language. Importers just slack English+French stickers over English / English+Spanish ingredient labels on food. Thus increasing the cost to everyone.

[ToboRobot]

7 minutes ago, Andreas Lilja said:

Customers should be entitled to buy products in their language. 

Without having any reasonable limits this will be exploited!

You see, I have this special language no one else knows and I want to buy all my products in that language, but since they don't know it, they would need to take a course on how to speak and write in my language, and there is a fee for that!

 

[Andreas Lilja]

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

Last time I checked, English is an official language. Importers just slack English+French stickers over English / English+Spanish ingredient labels on food. Thus increasing the cost to everyone.

The official language of everyday use in Quebec is French. The only bilingual province is New Brunswick. 

 

All other provinces merely offer federal government services in both languages. 

 

 

 

 

 

[thrasher_565]

planned obsolescence is just a made up thing between company's to benefit them all. anyone that dose not apply will get bullied and in case's killed...

 

same reason company's get away with crime because they lobby people to protect them. in the end no one cares about making it right just care about making moeny...

Edited October 7, 2023 by thrasher_565

[Mark Kaine]

Little did Quebec know that customers WANT planned obsolescence... how else could they justify their next spending spree dopamine rush??

 

On 10/4/2023 at 6:53 PM, Holmes108 said:

And also, while a noble idea, how do you prove something has a limited life "deliberately". A lot of the time, it's a matter of money and effort. Many things could be made to last nearly forever if you dump enough time, technology and materials into it. But where's the limit?

 

The light bulb is a decent example

the light bulp is a decent example of how manufacturers spend tons of money and development time and advertising to make their products lifespan less ,yes indeed. 

 

torpedoing your previous statement of course, yes it can be proven (in many ways i suppose, by comparing to similar products for example...)

 

 

On 10/4/2023 at 6:53 PM, Holmes108 said:

It was a balance of longevity vs. brightness/color.

lol no, it wasn't...

 

 

it was simply the light bulb industry realizing they can't make products that "last forever" basically.

 

 

i just had a light bulb break after like 50 years in the cellar which was frequently used (daily) and it wasnt "dim" at all... (40w iirc)

 

 

 

i still have it i think, the inside of this thing is something else.... (its full of rather chunky metal pieces basically)  

 

ps: i also still have another one about that age - but its a red light bulb, not frequently used at all, but its still working,  newer bulbs that aren't frequently used either last way shorter (1-3 years max, I'd say)

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel#:~:text=The cartel lowered operational costs,but this has been disputed.

 

 

ps: afaik longer lasting bulbs are still sold by Philips in Saudi Arabia for example,  because their king demanded it or something... and they aren't "dim" either.......... 

[norskfyr]

10 hours ago, Andreas Lilja said:

The official language of everyday use in Quebec is French. The only bilingual province is New Brunswick. 

 

All other provinces merely offer federal government services in both languages. 

 

 

But Quebec is in Canada, which has two official languages. As far as I'm aware, there has been no secession yet. I don't disagree with you, it's not really an issue in Europe at all. You just have 2-5 languages written on the box at all times.
Source: Am Québécois.

[Kronoton]

On 10/4/2023 at 6:20 PM, Kisai said:

If this came from the federal government of Canada, maybe it would matter

 

It wouldn't.

 

Canada's population is so small that for most companies it would be cheaper to either rely on grey market imports (make it someone else's problem) or hike the prices up to the point where they simply can afford to stockpile obsolete parts in the rare case that someones has a valid claim based on the law.

 

When it comes to companies operating globally only the EU and USA (and maybe China in some cases) have the power to force real change.

As seen with iPhones going USB-C.

[Kisai]

5 hours ago, norskfyr said:

But Quebec is in Canada, which has two official languages. As far as I'm aware, there has been no secession yet. I don't disagree with you, it's not really an issue in Europe at all. You just have 2-5 languages written on the box at all times.
Source: Am Québécois.

Quebec is part of Canada, and as much showmanship goes on about Quebec being it's own special-needs province (they forever require handouts,) the reality is that if they ever seceded, they would be a forever impoverished country pulling the same stunt we've all seen before when a country operates entirely on one issue. They would quite literately be reverting to the 1867 border, with the rest of the province becoming another Nunavut situation to get the natives to sign off on it. There goes all the hydro, timber and mining projects. It would not, ever, end well. 

 

If Canada comments on global issues about minority peoples being repressed, we just get a "clean up your own backyard first", fingers pointing at Quebec and subsequently have no power to steer that conversation.

 

 

2 hours ago, Kronoton said:

 

It wouldn't.

 

Canada's population is so small that for most companies it would be cheaper to either rely on grey market imports (make it someone else's problem) or hike the prices up to the point where they simply can afford to stockpile obsolete parts in the rare case that someones has a valid claim based on the law.

 

When it comes to companies operating globally only the EU and USA (and maybe China in some cases) have the power to force real change.

As seen with iPhones going USB-C.

If "Canada" does something, It matters only in North America (Eg Canada+US+Mexico) because we share various standards. For what it's worth California has more pull than Canada does on the US market, and thus the global market.

 

Canada sets the standard for wood exports, as an example. That's not big, but that's a standard that also used in Europe. This in turn sets various building code requirements in Canada, US, and Europe on the basis of the size of 2x4's and such.

 

Whoever is the FIRST mover on a certain industry or goal, sets the standard for everyone else.

 

This is why fuel efficiency standards in California apply to all vehicles manufactured globally if they are available in the US. It doesn't matter of that car is available in Australia or Japan, no manufacturer is going to make state-level, let alone country-level changes to things. It either goes into everything, or it doesn't exported to the market that has their head up their butt.

 

The US market is too big to ignore. Quebec is easy to ignore, and often is.,

 

Take a look no further than the "daylight savings time" issue. Canada is all aboard changing it, but needs the US to adapt the same standard, otherwise it would just result in chaos for "banking hours" business operations.

 

Quebec does not have that pull. Canada could change the daylight savings time, itself, but would rather not have the economic damage to both the US and Canada fall in their lap. Everyone has to agree to change at the same time.

 

Another standard, let's say we wanted to standardize on 20A 240v 50hz power and adopt the Europlug standard, and we got Japan and Taiwan to jump on that change. If Canada suddenly decided to do this, it would have to disconnect from the US power grid unless the US went along with it. That would be economically devastating to Quebec and BC since they are exporters of electricity to the US.

 

To bring this point back, Quebec has no power to set North American standards, or even Canadian standards. When they try to do something, the consequence is that manufacturers don't bother exporting to Quebec, and importers are burdened with the cost of modifying the product for Quebec, despite the product not having any language-specific function.

 

The entire reason why the same product in the US costs more in Canada, is because the "Canadian version" has to have Engish+French packaging.

[Kronoton]

22 minutes ago, Kisai said:

That would be economically devastating to Quebec and BC since they are exporters of electricity to the US.

Going off a tangent here, but that should be done via high voltage DC anyways making the kind of AC used on either end irrelevant....

 

24 minutes ago, Kisai said:

This in turn sets various building code requirements in Canada, US, and Europe on the basis of the size of 2x4's and such.

 

Haven't seen anything in " around here at least not when it comes to wood (which isn't used that much ...).

 

Even if, the point would be Canada for one reason or another changing the definitions, this might have some effect on the US market but would be completly ignored everywhere else.

[Waifu4Life]

On 10/6/2023 at 5:59 PM, Kisai said:

Last time I checked, English is an official language. Importers just slack English+French stickers over English / English+Spanish ingredient labels on food. Thus increasing the cost to everyone.

You clearly never check because there's 2 official languages in Canada, English and French and anyone with a government job in Ottawa is required to know both, end of story. 

 

On 10/4/2023 at 12:20 PM, Kisai said:

Yet another reason why companies don't sell to/in Quebec.

 

If this came from the federal government of Canada, maybe it would matter, but foreign companies already avoid Quebec, and even companies in other parts of Canada won't open in Quebec because of the absurd bureaucracy surrounding languages and taxes.

 

Exactly what can't I buy in Quebec that I can in the rest of Canada? 

[starsmine]

People dont want planned obsolenscence, but I also find that 90% of the time when someone complains about it... its not. 

IE iphone slowing down to NOT crash, as in to NOT be obsolescent.

Tech debt not being handled because <2% of that market still have a working device for the company (ie no updates for 6 year old phones) or just imposible to update (hardware security vulnerability)

A washing machine breaking because its engineered to be the BEST it can be per dollar, not overbuilt and costing twice as much. 

Lightbulbs to save you power per lumin/allow the power companies being able to build out the grid at at more reasonable pace and have more people with power. 

Etc. 

PROMOTE right to repair. planned obsolences does happen, but not often enough for it to be this boogy man people treat it as. 
Cars last longer than ever, our fleet on the road is literally the oldest it ever has been. they are not obsoleting an old car just because a new one has a change that may or may not be better overall. 

 

Survivorship bias is VERY real. old appliances were not built to the same QC standards many companies use today. 

 

Promoting right to repair to lower the amount of repairs that are not economically viable is the BEST approach here. 

[TetraSky]

12 hours ago, Waifu4Life said:

Exactly what can't I buy in Quebec that I can in the rest of Canada? 

A company boycotting Quebec for this sort of thing, is basically locking themselves out of 1/4 of the entire Canadian market. Is it even worth selling in Canada at that point?

But there are a few companies who never established themselves in Quebec... Like Popeyes Louisiana Kitchen, which opened a bunch of restaurant in Ontario next the ON/QC border, but none in Quebec.

(not sure how much of a loss that is for us, though. I ain't travelling for a few hours just to try it)

[Holmes108]

On 10/7/2023 at 2:50 AM, Mark Kaine said:

 

 

the light bulp is a decent example of how manufacturers spend tons of money and development time and advertising to make their products lifespan less ,yes indeed. 

 

torpedoing your previous statement of course, yes it can be proven (in many ways i suppose, by comparing to similar products for example...)

 

 

lol no, it wasn't...

 

 

A commonly parroted conspiracy, but there's lot's of information debunking it out there. Is a disposable lightbulb beneficial to the manufacturer? Of course. But there are other reasons that a "forever" bulb would not have been an ideal version for all use cases. Technology Connections did a great video breaking it down, if you're curious. But we digress.

[Waifu4Life]

3 hours ago, TetraSky said:

A company boycotting Quebec for this sort of thing, is basically locking themselves out of 1/4 of the entire Canadian market. Is it even worth selling in Canada at that point?

But there are a few companies who never established themselves in Quebec... Like Popeyes Louisiana Kitchen, which opened a bunch of restaurant in Ontario next the ON/QC border, but none in Quebec.

(not sure how much of a loss that is for us, though. I ain't travelling for a few hours just to try it)

These restaurants that you mentioned, they have stated that they are boycotting Quebec, meaning you can source this?

[TetraSky]

42 minutes ago, Waifu4Life said:

These restaurants that you mentioned, they have stated that they are boycotting Quebec, meaning you can source this?

Never said they are actively boycotting Quebec. It's just the circumstantial evidences, how weird it is they opened many across Canada, but there's zero in Quebec, not even in Montreal, the second biggest city by population in Canada. Yet there's one in nowhere Cornwall with a population of less than 50k (no offense intended if anyone is from there)

https://www.scrapehero.com/location-reports/Popeyes-Canada

 

Spoiler

 

[Waifu4Life]

8 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

Never said they are actively boycotting Quebec. It's just the circumstantial evidences, how weird it is they opened many across Canada, but there's zero in Quebec, not even in Montreal, the second biggest city by population in Canada. Yet there's one in nowhere Cornwall with a population of less than 50k (no offense intended if anyone is from there)

https://www.scrapehero.com/location-reports/Popeyes-Canada

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Well assuming doesn't get you really far in life. I'm old enough that I remember when Swiss Chalet and Red Lobster were in Quebec. Swiss Chalet closed it's restaurants in Quebec because they couldn't make a dent in St-Hubert market (ironically, Swiss Chalet's parent company now owns St-Hubert), I recall all of the news feed on TV because I use to love going to Swiss Chalet as a kid. Red Lobster just weren't profitable in Quebec period, guess we're not that big into seafood (https://www.shlr.org/le-red-lobster-na-fait-que-passer-a-vanier-et-au-quebec/). 

 

Canada is a freaking huge country and different areas will have different people meaning different tastes meaning different markets. Companies who don't do proper market research will learn the hard way that their business is not needed in certain markets. Hell, Target Canada is considered one of the biggest market research failure ever made, they couldn't make it  work in any Canadian markets .

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, Waifu4Life said:

 

 

Canada is a freaking huge country and different areas will have different people meaning different tastes meaning different markets. Companies who don't do proper market research will learn the hard way that their business is not needed in certain markets. Hell, Target Canada is considered one of the biggest market research failure ever made, they couldn't make it  work in any Canadian markets .

Target failure was compounded because of Quebec.

 

Because it didn't use it's own ERP inventory/logistics system they used in the US and instead relied on a new one that massively sucked, just to support french and english. Do your research. That is why shelves were empty all the time.

 

https://canadianbusiness.com/ideas/the-last-days-of-target-canada/

Quote

Target faced a choice: Was it better to extend that existing technology to Canada or buy a completely new, off-the-shelf system?

 

Finding an answer was tricky. By using Target’s existing technology, employees in Canada could draw on the large amount of expertise in the U.S. That plan had shortcomings as well. The technology was not set up to deal with a foreign country, and it would have to be customized to take into account the Canadian dollar and even French-language characters.

 

The larger problem was simply the company that built it, SAP, clearly played the outsource-to-the-lowest-bidder game. We've seen this before with the Canadian Government Payroll called Phoenix Pay. Some big company bids on a project and then the people they hire to build it, don't have the experience and just fake it until it works.

 

I won't lose sleep over what happened with retailers like Target, or any restaurant that failed to anticipate the penalty to having a presence in Quebec. As most videos on the subject will tell you, what they should have done was open in BC first and open east ward, or open in Ontario and open Westward. Ignore Quebec until things work. I doubt supporting French required little more than "Enable Unicode". It's not like American products don't have both Metric and Imperial measurements on them. So that would not have been an issue, though it might have been if their logistics measurements was only based in imperial units.

 

Or you know, they could have bought Zeller's ERP system when they bought the leases. Then they wouldn't have had the issue in the first place.

 

But to roll back the discussion about companies that ignore Quebec. There's lots of them.

Youtube: https://mobilesyrup.com/2015/11/18/google-brings-its-youtube-kids-app-to-canada/

Spotify: https://community.spotify.com/t5/Subscriptions/Why-can-t-I-upgrade-to-spotify-premium-in-quebec/td-p/5374753

Most virtual credit unions (their websites will not be presented in French, but you can usually still sign up)

Apple's Apple Camp

Insurance coverage: https://www.cooperators.ca/en/insurance/car-insurance-and-quick-auto-insurance-quotes

Apps for Resturants: https://www.dairyqueen.com/en-ca/app/faq/ , 

Promotional offers for gas stations: https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal

 

The big pattern you see is that Quebec loses out on "free" offers, things offered to English-speaking Canadians (such as no-fee savings accounts from banks and CU's) either because Quebec rules regarding promotions and contests are overburdening or because the need to translate things and have legal representatives in Quebec, JUST for Quebec. 

 

Quebec loses out on a lot of this stuff simply because "oh it has the english cooties" and for no other reason. You could get it, but the Quebec government would rather be a no-fun province, "speak french or GTFO."

 

Nowhere else in Canada does this mindset exist. BC doesn't tell people to speak English, and thus we are never antagonizing the Asian communities that decide to just operate entirely in Chinese or Punjabi, or whatever. Sure, it would be nice if they did, but people have the right to speak the language of their parents and grandparents, and forcing these places to speak only english in the same way Quebec does with french, would just tell them they are not welcome.

 

It is far more common to be able to find someone who can speak Mandarin or Cantonese than someone who can speak French, and many Provincial and Federal jobs HERE consider speaking a Chinese dialect more important than French, thus if you actually are someone who wants to speak French to a government employee, prepared to get that third-grader french that the rest of the country speaks.

 

[DANK_AS_gay]

On 10/7/2023 at 2:50 AM, Mark Kaine said:

Little did Quebec know that customers WANT planned obsolescence... how else could they justify their next spending spree dopamine rush??

 

the light bulp is a decent example of how manufacturers spend tons of money and development time and advertising to make their products lifespan less ,yes indeed. 

 

torpedoing your previous statement of course, yes it can be proven (in many ways i suppose, by comparing to similar products for example...)

 

 

lol no, it wasn't...

 

 

it was simply the light bulb industry realizing they can't make products that "last forever" basically.

 

 

i just had a light bulb break after like 50 years in the cellar which was frequently used (daily) and it wasnt "dim" at all... (40w iirc)

 

 

 

i still have it i think, the inside of this thing is something else.... (its full of rather chunky metal pieces basically)  

 

ps: i also still have another one about that age - but its a red light bulb, not frequently used at all, but its still working,  newer bulbs that aren't frequently used either last way shorter (1-3 years max, I'd say)

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel#:~:text=The cartel lowered operational costs,but this has been disputed.

 

 

ps: afaik longer lasting bulbs are still sold by Philips in Saudi Arabia for example,  because their king demanded it or something... and they aren't "dim" either.......... 

 

I don't remember the details, but this video talks about how it absolutely was a tradeoff for brightness and efficiency. A 2500 hour lightbulb produces less light than a 1000 hour lightbulb, while consuming the same power.

[DANK_AS_gay]

8 hours ago, Holmes108 said:

 

A commonly parroted conspiracy, but there's lot's of information debunking it out there. Is a disposable lightbulb beneficial to the manufacturer? Of course. But there are other reasons that a "forever" bulb would not have been an ideal version for all use cases. Technology Connections did a great video breaking it down, if you're curious. But we digress.

I just linked to that video above lol

[Mark Kaine]

3 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

A 2500 hour lightbulb produces less light than a 1000 hour lightbulb, while consuming the same power.

that by itself doesn't say much other than people actually want this, and companies especially,  nothing is debunked, these bulbs still exist, so they're *slightly* dimmer but last much longer (ie companies make less money, environmental burden is much smaller, hence "we cant have it", greed wins again lol)

 

 

ps: its also funny they use an old design to show how bad these "dim" light bulbs are, when newer designs are way better. 

 

 

Also they made a cartel specifically for that reason so no one would make longer lasting bulbs, that's am actual proven conspiracy,  not a theory lol.

 

 

imagine trying to justify planned obsolescence lmao