Raspberry PI 5 Finally released

[WolframaticAlpha]

On 9/28/2023 at 5:08 PM, Needfuldoer said:

HTPC

Size, really. I don't use a pi for HTPC but the elegance of the solution is certainly appealing. Plus, it's like 5 bucks more expensive than the last one, considering it is after the massive inflation in 2019, the cost isn't much different.  Plus the pi is new and SFF PCs don't have the same availability that the pi did(pre shortage) in places that aren't NA/EU.

 

I don't like having additional servers/PCs in my living room, so I can just put my pi near the router on my bookshelf and use it as an e-book/nas serve. The pi works fine enough with a heatsink and from what I saw in the pi5, it doesn't throttle very much with a heatsink.

 

Though most people just use Pis for the versatility, myself included. If you saw some cool hacky thing on Twitter or reddit, 99% of the time, the software for doing that things would've been already available. I like to hack around software, but I sometimes go for things that "just work".

 

Not to mention that USFF pcs are absolute garbage when it comes to using for anything that isn't a piracy box. I have been buying pis before the pandemic, and I think they were still selling 2-4 million pis before the 4 happened and it finally had enough power to watch video(you had to max out the vMem to 400 megs I think to get 1080p to just work in the 3). So there were many people buying Pis for stuff that is not an HTPC/NAS.

 

As to other SBCs, the software support isn't just there. Anytime I want to just have something work(cups, calibre, pihole-alikes etc), I just found that stuff usually worked on Pis. I have had many SBCs at this point(Asus TBs, jetson nanos, orangepis etc) and shit just worked on the pi. The second best experience I had was with probably the jetson and even that too was extremely flaky when compared to the pi. No SBC matches the Pi on just price to perf, with only the 2gig JN coming close.

 

I guess I didn't feel much pain because I had already replaced many of my Pi 3s before the pandemic. So I really just had pi4s where perf of the 3 was insufficient and had an excess of 3s and 2s and 0s.

[WolframaticAlpha]

9 hours ago, LAwLz said:

The fact of the matter is that you could get Raspberry Pi 4 models for 35 dollars. Now the cheapest you can get the RPi 5 is 60 dollars.

"but they increased the spec! And think of inflation" was never a reason to increase the price in the last 10 years. 

They are probably supply constrained and wanted to get the 4 and 8 gig models out first, because that is what most people seem to be buying nowadays. if you look on the PCB, it has markings for a 2GB edition as well.

 

9 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Orange Pi 5

Seems to be about as fast as the Pi, not to mention more expensive a d runs hotter. Don't know much about software support, but orange pi software wasn't much good when I bought it and it has been tucked away in my drawer since

 

 

I might pick one up when I am in the uk next year(the sw would've settled down I think) But right now my pi4s + jetsons seem to be fine enough. My heart really wants an orrin nx though and use it as to play around with llama 2, but my head says no. Oh well.

 

 

[Kilrah]

21 hours ago, darknessblade said:

Average Ram usage is around 70-80% when Idle [shoots to 85% when automations trigger]

Weird, checked my setup last night and it's never above about 0.9-1GB use. Do you have many addons enabled?

[manikyath]

On 9/28/2023 at 1:33 PM, Bananasplit_00 said:

Why doesn't it have USB PD???? 5v 5A? Does anyone even sell that?..

it does.. but it's not compliant... ish. i've read a huge thing about it on tweakers (dutch, and i'm not gonna word for word translate an entire thread) that basicly comes down to

 

"5V 5A is allowed within the USB PD spec, but a device *requiring* it, is not." and the pi's fix is only requiring 5V 3A, but severely current limiting the USB ports if you dont buy their own official adapter.

 

the sensible thing to do would have been implementing 9V 2.8A as the USB PD spec requires.. but nope, they're stuck to 5 volts because they cant see a solution even if it is stuffed in their face like a custard pie.

[Fasterthannothing]

Maybe it's just me but I don't see the appeal of the raspberry pi anymore. It's not exactly cheap when compared to a refurbished desktop from Dell and it's not that power efficient when compared to other systems in its class. They are also extremely hard to get your hands on.

[darknessblade]

3 hours ago, Kilrah said:

Weird, checked my setup last night and it's never above about 0.9-1GB use. Do you have many addons enabled?

I don't have much Crazy stuff enabled.

 

Have 17 addons of which I barely use a few like [ESPHOME, only 1-2 devices], and things like SAMBA, file editor, etc

 

The heaviest is at 5% which is "adguard"

[HenrySalayne]

1 hour ago, manikyath said:

the sensible thing to do would have been implementing 9V 2.8A as the USB PD spec requires.. but nope, they're stuck to 5 volts because they cant see a solution even if it is stuffed in their face like a custard pie.

They stuck to 5V because they don't want the added complexity and cost of an additional DC/DC stage.

[manikyath]

3 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

They stuck to 5V because they don't want the added complexity and cost of an additional DC/DC stage.

they co-developed their own USB-PD chipset and their own 'south bridge' type chipset.. the complexity of *one* DC/DC stage is not the problem here.

 

 case in point.. at least one of my pi's (i'd have to go check how many to definitively say if i've done this to more than one) has a DC-DC module stuck on top that does 5V3A off any input betwen 7 and 15 volts with 90% efficiency. and the "unit cost" of this module is like a tenner to a layman like me. i know enough of the scale pricing of electroncs to say that these modules at scale cant be more than a few bucks to implement, or just not do the module and finally have their own DC-DC input on the board, and probably spend 90 cents worth of components to do so.

 

also - to reiterate: they co-developed their own USB-PD chipset. all it would have taken to have 9v input is one N/C pin on that chipset and some passive components.

 

if i can implement it with nothing but a google and a soldering iron, so can they.

[Kilrah]

1 hour ago, darknessblade said:

Have 17 addons of which I barely use a few like [ESPHOME, only 1-2 devices], and things like SAMBA, file editor, etc

For example esphome you don't need to actually run unless you're compiling new firmware for your devices, so you can stop it / tell it not to autostart on boot, that'll free some

[Kaffeinated Aura]

Given the increase power this Pi has, It has  to be able to run GCN, Wii, and PS2 emulation at full speed. Iirc the Pi 4 was close, but full speed was just out of reach. I'd like to build a small handheld that's dedicated to just emulation. Love my steam deck, but I want something that's smaller and consumes less power.

 

Also, no way it's already been 4 years since the Pi 4. Time hasn't been the same since 2020.

[darknessblade]

On 9/30/2023 at 2:53 PM, Kilrah said:

For example esphome you don't need to actually run unless you're compiling new firmware for your devices, so you can stop it / tell it not to autostart on boot, that'll free some

I have checked by disabling ESP-home and it did not change much in RAM usage.

 

It was at most a 15MB difference

[HenrySalayne]

On 9/30/2023 at 2:36 PM, manikyath said:

they co-developed their own USB-PD chipset and their own 'south bridge' type chipset.. the complexity of *one* DC/DC stage is not the problem here.

AFAIK the Pi has a 5V bus spanning the entire board. Since you have multiple supply points, it's not as simple as *one* DC/DC stage. Nevertheless, it's a solvable problem, but I can see why you would not implement something like this on a board with space and cost constraints.

[igormp]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:33 AM, Bananasplit_00 said:

Why doesn't it have USB PD???? 5v 5A? Does anyone even sell that?..

Well, 5V5A is still under the PD Spec, just not widely supported by many chargers because that's dumb lol

 

Also, that 5A requirement is just for extra USB peripherals, as already mentioned.

 

On 9/29/2023 at 6:23 AM, tim0901 said:

while other competing Pi's like the Orange Pi typically (although I'll admit I haven't looked at this one specifically) abandon them after 1-2 years, and on top of that their communities are far smaller so they're much less beginner friendly.

Most of the good competitors (like orange pi) are using SoCs that managed to get upstreamed on the linux kernel, so more often than not you can just download ubuntu/debian/whateverdistroyoulike and get it up and running without much issues.

Not as beginner friendly as a RPI tho, where they even make it easy for you to flash the sdcard.

On 9/30/2023 at 8:29 AM, Fasterthannothing said:

Maybe it's just me but I don't see the appeal of the raspberry pi anymore. It's not exactly cheap when compared to a refurbished desktop from Dell and it's not that power efficient when compared to other systems in its class. They are also extremely hard to get your hands on.

I guess their major appeal is the same reason why they were really hard to order some time ago: use the board as a dev kit so you can build an actual project using their compute module.

 

[Kisai]

On 9/30/2023 at 11:28 AM, Kaffeinated Aura said:

Given the increase power this Pi has, It has  to be able to run GCN, Wii, and PS2 emulation at full speed.

Why? That's not what this device is for. No Pi has ever been able to run PS1 or N64 at full speed because, again, these devices are weak and that is not the selling point.

 

The selling point of Pi's are IoT purposes, not games and not desktop replacements. Sure, maybe you can get a Apple II or C64 emulator to run at full speed because that's not a huge hurdle, but nothing short of a 4Ghz desktop can emulate a SNES correctly.

 

Quite frankly, using Pi's as emulator boxes is up there with "free satellite tv" as a selling point for Android piracy boxes. Yes they can be used for that but, that isn't what the SoC was designed for.

 

 

[igormp]

34 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Quite frankly, using Pi's as emulator boxes is up there with "free satellite tv" as a selling point for Android piracy boxes. Yes they can be used for that but, that isn't what the SoC was designed for.

On the other hand, it's a general-purpose SoC, so you can try to do whatever you want with it 

35 minutes ago, Kisai said:

but nothing short of a 4Ghz desktop can emulate a SNES correctly.

i guess most people don't really care for cycle-accurate emulation, so as long as it's playable people are often okay with it.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, igormp said:

On the other hand, it's a general-purpose SoC, so you can try to do whatever you want with it 

If it was designed for games, it would be marketed on being that. Which it isn't.

Quote

For the first time, this is a full-size Raspberry Pi computer using silicon built in-house at Raspberry Pi. The RP1 “southbridge” provides the bulk of the I/O capabilities for Raspberry Pi 5, and delivers a step change in peripheral performance and functionality. Aggregate USB bandwidth is more than doubled, yielding faster transfer speeds to external UAS drives and other high-speed peripherals; the dedicated two-lane 1Gbps MIPI camera and display interfaces present on earlier models have been replaced by a pair of four-lane 1.5Gbps MIPI transceivers, tripling total bandwidth, and supporting any combination of up to two cameras or displays; peak SD card performance is doubled, through support for the SDR104 high-speed mode; and for the first time the platform exposes a single-lane PCI Express 2.0 interface, providing support for high-bandwidth peripherals.

This describes robotics, not game consoles. Anyway the point stands, it's not marketed at being a game console. You can do whatever you want with it, but a Pi as a game console is about as useful as driving a bike on the freeway. You ain't doing that except to go "wheee I can!" no matter how slow it is.

 

1 hour ago, igormp said:

i guess most people don't really care for cycle-accurate emulation, so as long as it's playable people are often okay with it.

People who are into speed running care, because anything but cycle-accurate is cheating. I'm not saying people are going to use the RPi as a speedrunning console, but people continually make the mistake that "because it runs minecraft, it can also run (fill in the blank with AAA game released in the last 12 months)", not understanding the difference between a native port and emulating requiring hardware comes at substantial performance requirements that just aren't met by hardware marketed as SBC Robotics kits.

[Obioban]

17 hours ago, Kisai said:

nothing short of a 4Ghz desktop can emulate a SNES correctly.

 

That's not true-- this is how I do it:

https://www.retrorgb.com/mister.html

[Obioban]

15 hours ago, Kisai said:

People who are into speed running care, because anything but cycle-accurate is cheating. I'm not saying people are going to use the RPi as a speedrunning console, but people continually make the mistake that "because it runs minecraft, it can also run (fill in the blank with AAA game released in the last 12 months)", not understanding the difference between a native port and emulating requiring hardware comes at substantial performance requirements that just aren't met by hardware marketed as SBC Robotics kits.

Most people aren't into speed running.

 

The Pi is a easy/cheap/fun box you can play into your TV and play old games.

 

Of course they don't advertise that as a use case-- it's piracy.

 

What they do advertise is doing whatever you want with it.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Obioban said:

 

That's not true-- this is how I do it:

https://www.retrorgb.com/mister.html

A Mister is a FPGA. Not a software emulator. Also not a $60 ARM SoC.