Madison reveals experiences working at LMG

[Reclus]

If we are to speculate. Rather than focusing on who is or isn't telling the truth, I would propose the topic of what will happen after Madison's claims are confirmed and what happens when they aren't for both parties.

 

[Someona]

2 minutes ago, Mertrodome said:

She didn't accuse Linus of sexual harassment, she accused Linus Media Group of having a hostile work evenironment, the form of which was bullying, undermining her dignity, and sexual harassment.

When did I say she did that?

 

Linus was just an example of how negative/general claims can't be proven.

 

And she accused LMG of hell a lot more than those 3 things, including her workload, unrelated to the fact that the above poster said we need to prove negative/general claims.

 

7 minutes ago, Mertrodome said:

You're right that you can't prove a negative. However, what they can prove is that appropriate measures were taken in response to any reports she made (she claims to have made several), that they exercised their duty of care within the bounds of what they were made aware of, etc.

 

I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer on the specifics, because anything that was done privately and unrecorded is, by definition, impossible to prove. What we might get a definitive answer on though is whether LMG acted appropriately and strongly enough to the reports they received and whether their working environment left open the possibility for this kind of thing happening.

 

If someone accuses you of negligence you can't just say "you can't prove a negative", you have to demonstrate that you did what was necessary to not be considered negligent.

And here I disagree, positive claims can be proven, she could've easily recorded the harassment and prove it, since one party consent is legal in Canada. She already stated she made her mind on quitting long time ago, and if she really wanted to bring justice she could've easily photographed text/recorded audio in her last period in the company.

 

She didn't, now she has 0 evidence just a long list of allegations that cannot be disproven and we shouldn't guilty until proven innocent lynch people.

 

[LinoLear]

24 minutes ago, Mertrodome said:

She didn't accuse Linus of sexual harassment, she accused Linus Media Group of having a hostile work evenironment, the form of which was bullying, undermining her dignity, and sexual harassment.

 

You're right that you can't prove a negative. However, what they can prove is that appropriate measures were taken in response to any reports she made (she claims to have made several), that they exercised their duty of care within the bounds of what they were made aware of, etc.

 

I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer on the specifics, because anything that was done privately and unrecorded is, by definition, impossible to prove. What we might get a definitive answer on though is whether LMG acted appropriately and strongly enough to the reports they received and whether their working environment left open the possibility for this kind of thing happening.

 

If someone accuses you of negligence you can't just say "you can't prove a negative", you have to demonstrate that you did what was necessary to not be considered negligent.

If you carefully read her post. The joke made about her, clearly hinting the fact that her work is subpar. 

Linus's only mistakes are that he didn't fire her before it started hurting her feelings, and thinking that she would become better and work harder because of the jokes.

[Mertrodome]

1 minute ago, Someona said:

And here I disagree, positive claims can be proven, she could've easily recorded the harassment and prove it, since one party consent is legal in Canada. She already stated she made her mind on quitting long time ago, and if she really wanted to bring justice she could've easily photographed text/recorded audio in her last period in the company.

 

She didn't, now she has 0 evidence just a long list of allegations that cannot be disproven and we shouldn't guilty until proven innocent lynch people.

In an ideal world she would have receipts for all of this, of course. Well, in an ideal world she'd have nothing to accuse them of in the first place, but you know what I mean. Of course if she had recordings or witnesses or whatever that would be better for her right now. But there could be a bunch of reasons why she didn't - fear of getting caught and making the situation worse, a belief that it was her own fault she was being treated this way, not thinking she'd ever bring it up or speak out about it, etc.

 

So yeah, having hard evidence would be helpful, obviously. But I don't think the lack of it makes it any more or less likely that what she's saying is true. Harder to prove definitevely, yes, but not untrue.

But yeah, that's ultimately why I don't believe the investigation is going to turn out to be like "employee X definitely said this to employee Y, but they did not say this other thing". It'll be "did LMG handle things in the most appropriate way, do they have robust enough processes in place, are the right personnel in place, what are the blind spots LMG can address", that kinda thing.

It'll probably find some - honestly it'd be weird if they found zero improvements that could be made. But unless there's some evidence/witnesses we're not aware of or someone decides to confess to something, I doubt we'll get a public answer on the veracity of any specific claims, personally.

[Mertrodome]

8 minutes ago, LinoLear said:

If you carefully read her post. The joke made about her, clearly hinting the fact that her work is subpar. 

Linus only mistakes are that he didn't fire her before it started hurting her feelings, and thinking that she would become better and work harder because of the jokes.

There are good and bad ways of dealing with subpar workers though. Some of which they may well have done, to be fair. A common, professional way of dealing with it would be some kind of performance improvement plan discussed between her, HR and her line manager, with specific, measurable goals to demonstrate improvement. A bad way of dealing with it as allowing people in her team to openly insult her.

 

If Linus did genuinely think like how you suggest, that jokes at her expense would toughen her up and improve her work (for the record, I don't personally believe he did) then that's clearly in the unprofessional side of how to deal with underperformance.

[Someona]

4 minutes ago, Mertrodome said:

So yeah, having hard evidence would be helpful, obviously. But I don't think the lack of it makes it any more or less likely that what she's saying is true. Harder to prove definitevely, yes, but not untrue.

Any evidence would've been helpful, otherwise this thing is a non-starter. As you agreed generals negative claims are unprovable.

 

6 minutes ago, Mertrodome said:

But yeah, that's ultimately why I don't believe the investigation is going to turn out to be like "employee X definitely said this to employee Y, but they did not say this other thing". It'll be "did LMG handle things in the most appropriate way, do they have robust enough processes in place, are the right personnel in place, what are the blind spots LMG can address", that kinda thing.

Which will be the right thing going forward, addressing why they can't just bug the whole office to listen to every single thing an employee is saying, that given the situation that's the most they can make out of  "he said she said" situation without calling authorities, and if she felt that a crime is commited the authorities perhaps should've investigated the matter further, etc and etc.

 

 

[vorg.eth]

7 hours ago, Mertrodome said:

Of course I don't think that. Self-harm is obviously serious and alarming, and I hope she has sought help for that.

 

But you're saying she should be hospitalised, that she's suffering from delusions and that it's "pure attention seeking behaviour". How do you know those things to be true if not armchair diagnostics based on what she's written?

It’s based on her actions. Not her tweets. 
 

The notion that you think her self harm is somehow rational is as armchair doctor as it gets. 

[Mr. Rabbit]

21 minutes ago, Reclus said:

If we are to speculate. Rather than focusing on who is or isn't telling the truth, I would propose the topic of what will happen after Madison's claims are confirmed and what happens when they aren't for both parties.

 

If they are found true, the lynch mob will come and nothing LMG do to make it right will quench its thirst.

 

If they are found false/not proved, they lynch mob will accuse LMG of lying and covering it up.

 

In real terms, I think any outcome will make LMG make changes to how issues like these are handled, and they'll probably start having annual training meetings to make sure everyone is on board with what is or isn't acceptable, and the ways to proceed in case some interpersonal conflict arises.
The company grew very fast, and it's clear Linus wasn't fit to handle it (and he admits it).
Having an experienced CEO will more likely than not mean that a lot of things would be changing already, but with last week's drama, and Madison's accusations, he'll probably have more leeway to make big changes.

 

I also believe that if there are any hints of truth found during the investigation, the involved staff will be let go, either "amicably" (in case the evidence isn't able to 100% prove it), or full on kicked out (if they find really damning evidence), and they'll probably reach to Madison to bury the hatchet and reach a monetary deal, and a public apology, detailing the steps taken to try to prevent future cases like that.

[Reclus]

1 minute ago, Mr. Rabbit said:

If they are found true, the lynch mob will come and nothing LMG do to make it right will quench its thirst.

 

If they are found false/not proved, they lynch mob will accuse LMG of lying and covering it up.

 

In real terms, I think any outcome will make LMG make changes to how issues like these are handled, and they'll probably start having annual training meetings to make sure everyone is on board with what is or isn't acceptable, and the ways to proceed in case some interpersonal conflict arises.
The company grew very fast, and it's clear Linus wasn't fit to handle it (and he admits it).
Having an experienced CEO will more likely than not mean that a lot of things would be changing already, but with last week's drama, and Madison's accusations, he'll probably have more leeway to make big changes.

 

I also believe that if there are any hints of truth found during the investigation, the involved staff will be let go, either "amicably" (in case the evidence isn't able to 100% prove it), or full on kicked out (if they find really damning evidence), and they'll probably reach to Madison to bury the hatchet and reach a monetary deal, and a public apology, detailing the steps taken to try to prevent future cases like that.

What about Madison?

[Mertrodome]

2 minutes ago, vorg.eth said:

It’s based on her actions. Not her tweets. 
 

The notion that you think her self harm is somehow rational is as armchair doctor as it gets. 

I didn't say it was rational, I said it wasn't proof she is suffering delusions and should be in hospital two years after the fact. Because, like, it isn't.

[vorg.eth]

2 minutes ago, Mertrodome said:

I didn't say it was rational, I said it wasn't proof she is suffering delusions and should be in hospital two years after the fact. Because, like, it isn't.

Cool beans, armchair Doc. 
 

I believe it is a sign of textbook delusion and psychosis.  Most people simply quit shitty jobs. They don’t cut themselves to get attention from the boss. 

[Mertrodome]

Just now, vorg.eth said:

Cool beans, armchair Doc. 
 

I believe it is a sign of textbook delusion and psychosis.

You really don't see the irony in this, do you?

[starsmine]

2 minutes ago, vorg.eth said:

Cool beans, armchair Doc. 
 

I believe it is a sign of textbook delusion and psychosis.  Most people simply quit shitty jobs. They don’t cut themselves to get attention from the boss. 

This is some weird projection and massive lack of self reflection. Like damn. 

[Mr. Rabbit]

20 minutes ago, Reclus said:

What about Madison?

Doesn't matter much, she'll be harassed either way.

 

If found true, she'll probably try to capitalize to gain some followers on social media/streaming service, or get a job somewhere where she can lay low, depending if she wants more or less attention on her.

If false, she'll do a half-ass apology or double down claiming LMG is lying, and then go into hiding until it passes, because she made very serious accusations and I wouldn't put it past LMG forcing her hand into an apology under the threat of suing, and will be used as another example of how women lie about these things and cannot be trusted.

 

If found inconclusive, I'd say she'll double down and maybe try to also pull some following, or joining an org where she'll be one of the faces of how women suffer in tech, and how these accusations aren't taken seriously enough.

 

I will also say that LMG will have its reputation damaged forever, even if it's a lie, but Madison will get a rabid and toxic subset of LMG fans harassing her even if it's all proven true.

 

EDIT: and don't forget the  "<removed by staff>" that don't care about LTT, but will suddenly use it as an excuse to harass Madison.
And the LTT haters that will ignore whatever happens and use Madison as an excuse to attack Linus and LTT's workers at every turn.

 

Yeah, I don't really have much hope for the internet, much less after take a stroll through Reddit last week (and honestly, even way before, like before LTT started making so many mistakes, there was a rabid LTT hate club lurking in r/pcmasterrace, r/technology, and r/hardware)

Edited August 20, 2023 by SansVarnic
Removed content.

[wasab]

Linus is evil! Bring out the pitch forks guys. 

[wasab]

15 minutes ago, vorg.eth said:

Cool beans, armchair Doc. 
 

I believe it is a sign of textbook delusion and psychosis.  Most people simply quit shitty jobs. They don’t cut themselves to get attention from the boss. 

I really don't understand why she owes anyone an explanation why she quit her job. Whether it is on her terms or not, whether it is due to toxicity or benign reasons such as career growth or not, it is not in her best interest to be bad mouthing a former employer. 

 

Same thing for an employer as well. It is very unprofessional for an employer to bad mouth a former employee. Besides being distasteful, they can easily get hit with defamation lawsuits. 

[tech.guru]

6 minutes ago, wasab said:

Linus is evil! Bring out the pitch forks guys. 

Linus isnt the victim.

 

Its the person whos claiming the sexual harrassment.

[wasab]

1 minute ago, tech.guru said:

Linus isnt the victim.

 

Its the person whos claiming the sexual harrassment.

That was sarcasm 

[tech.guru]

8 minutes ago, wasab said:

I really don't understand why she owes anyone an explanation why she quit her job. Whether it is on her terms or not, whether it is due to toxicity or benign reasons such as career growth or not, it is not in her best interest to be bad mouthing a former employer. 

 

Same thing for an employer as well. It is very unprofessional for an employer to bad mouth a former employee. Besides being distasteful, they can easily get hit with defamation lawsuits. 

Its probably to get some closure over what happened.

She probably genuinely doesnt want anyone else to go through what she went through.

 

Making it public has the greatest chance of change and only after it was reported publicly did LTT say they were doing an investigation.

 

reporting internally did not change the behavior and the harrassment continued until she quit.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Rabbit said:

Yeah, I don't really have much hope for the internet, much less after take a stroll through Reddit last week (and honestly, even way before, like before LTT started making so many mistakes, there was a rabid LTT hate club lurking in r/pcmasterrace, r/technology, and r/hardware)

Luke said it best on the WAN show a while ago, (paraphrasing) "no matter what there will be people waiting by the side lines with daggers ready to pounce the moment a situation unfolds. At the end of the day, regardless what the investigation turns up, people will not satisfied either way and I don't think that Linus/LMG can win (figuratively speaking) because there will always be a side that's not happy. They are doing the right thing, so all we can do is wait and see what comes of it.

[castlev]

1 hour ago, LinoLear said:

I wonder why all people focusing on the supposedly almost non existent sexual harassment, which clearly are not the main problem. The girl true problems seen from her tweet, are her skills which are always belittled by her peers.

Lets be real here, in any group of people, when someone make mistakes, there will always some people make jokes about it, that's it. No matter the place or situation.

This is not a big matter at all, it just a complaint of an employee that clearly didn't know how real world works.

Sometimes me and my coworkers will tell each other that their work is dog shit. It isn't mean, it's a compliment, meaning, you can do better than that! We know your brand, what the fuck is this garbage are you hung over? Nobody gets offended by that, but we are also comfortable with each other. We are all millennials though. I could see in an environment with millennials and one zoomer, the zoomer might take things offensively, and their generation is conditioned to do.

[Mertrodome]

3 minutes ago, wasab said:

That was sarcasm 

Tbf forum penguins are notoriously difficult to read. Humans aren't typically very experienced in reading emotions on beaks, sadly

[Mr. Rabbit]

1 minute ago, Spec7re said:

Luke said it best on the WAN show a while ago, (paraphrasing) "no matter what there will be people waiting by the side lines with daggers ready to pounce the moment a situation unfolds. At the end of the day, regardless what the investigation turns up, people will not satisfied either way and I don't think that Linus/LMG can win (figuratively speaking) because there will always be a side that's not happy. They are doing the right thing, so all we can do is wait and see what comes of it.

I will say that no matter what happens, both sides lose.
Even if it's all proven true, and LMG apologizes, and gives money to Madison, and fires the culprits, both sides will get endless shit forever.
Madison will still be called a liar and attention seeker, and everyone at LMG (specially Linus) will be called a sexual predator.

[wasab]

4 minutes ago, tech.guru said:

Reporting internally did not change the behavior and toxic culture and harrassment continued until she quit.

Okay. Just make sure you don't do this on job interviews when asked why you left your previous job. Future employers and interviewers rarely take this positively and generally will just automatically assume you are the problem. 

[tech.guru]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Rabbit said:

I will say that no matter what happens, both sides lose.
Even if it's all proven true, and LMG apologizes, and gives money to Madison, and fires the culprits, both sides will get endless shit forever.
Madison will still be called a liar and attention seeker, and everyone at LMG (specially Linus) will be called a sexual predator.

Shes been quiet since she posted the bombshells.  she may be actually be partipating in the investigation. 

 

i dont think money is her motivation as she stayed silent for two years.

Whatever happens; if she receives money doesnt excuse the behavior she experienced.