Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, hmfaysal said:

No no, lets not talk about Steve then, lets talk about how we should support Billet Labs by preordering the copper monoblock with their impressive thermals. Lesssgooooooo Billet boys

Uhh what thermals, I don't see that on their site? Where did you get accurate measurements of the thermals of their MonoBlock? 

[hmfaysal]

Just now, Taylor Ford said:

They have pictures and data sheets, go to Shop > Pre-order and scroll down the page. 

 

And yes, they got attention, but I won't say it's the kind of attention they wanted in the first place. They have so far, imo, been fairly modest and transparent in their response.  

Ah, so billet labs shot for the moon? Did they try to send their stuff to smaller review channels that do thorough research? ie GN? If no, why not?

[Thaldor]

21 minutes ago, hmfaysal said:

No no, everyone wants a positive feedback. Thats just life. 

Problem is, LTT has a machine shop, They are not impressed. Its plain and simple. Maybe Steve is, does he even have a machine shop or access to a CNC mill?

It's also plain and simple that LTT cut the video short, posted it with incorrect testing and while the writer asked Linus to give him a bit time to make the testing correct, Linus went "Shit product, shit price, I won't spend another dime or minute to it because nothing will change anything". And the outcome was lazy video which left the conclusion "product is shit because it doesn't perform well compared to its price" with the incorrect testing. Linus could have spend like 20 minutes extra and made the conclusion part of the video clearer about that the price of the product is ridiculous and pretty much no matter the performance, it's not a product he could give positive review, or spend the few hours/days and add the correct testing to strengthen the already filmed conclusion.

 

The problem isn't that the review was bad, the problem was that LTTs testing in that review was completely incorrect because Linus didn't want to initially spend 20 minutes to get RTX 3090 Ti (E: which Billet Lab also send to LTT) to test the product and, because his some odd vision about always making only the newest and shiniest builds, they went on with the RTX 4090 that the Billet Lab said just only "might work" which it didn't.

The outcome really doesn't matter but that LTT released video about someones product in which LTT fucks up the testing because Linus and the LTT correction is pretty much Linus saying sorry and spending 10 minutes talking about why doing the testing correctly wouldn't change the outcome. The cold hard fact is still that LTT willingly and knowingly posted a video with fucked up testing.

 

What it comes to error correcting the pinned comment and later editing videos isn't enough. 99% of the people do not return to rewatch videos in case "there was a problem" or anything and the misinformation and error will remain and grow. GN also might put notion on the videos with mistakes pointing people to the video with the correction but even if not, them making the correction video and that being either fixed video or video only concerning their mistake is million times better than what LTT does.

[hmfaysal]

Just now, a39c said:

Uhh what thermals, I don't see that on their site? Where did you get accurate measurements of the thermals of their MonoBlock? 

Wait a minute, there you go

 

[hmfaysal]

2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

It's also plain and simple that LTT cut the video short, posted it with incorrect testing and while the writer asked Linus to give him a bit time to make the testing correct, Linus went "Shit product, shit price, I won't spend another dime or minute to it because nothing will change anything". And the outcome was lazy video which left the conclusion "product is shit because it doesn't perform well compared to its price" with the incorrect testing. Linus could have spend like 20 minutes extra and made the conclusion part of the video clearer about that the price of the product is ridiculous and pretty much no matter the performance, it's not a product he could give positive review, or spend the few hours/days and add the correct testing to strengthen the already filmed conclusion.

 

The problem isn't that the review was bad, the problem was that LTTs testing in that review was completely incorrect because Linus didn't want to initially spend 20 minutes to get RTX 3090 Ti to test the product and, because his some odd vision about always making only the newest and shiniest builds, they went on with the RTX 4090 that the Billet Lab said just only "might work" which it didn't.

The outcome really doesn't matter but that LTT released video about someones product in which LTT fucks up the testing because Linus and the LTT correction is pretty much Linus saying sorry and spending 10 minutes talking about why doing the testing correctly wouldn't change the outcome. The cold hard fact is still that LTT willingly and knowingly posted a video with fucked up testing.

 

What it comes to error correcting the pinned comment and later editing videos isn't enough. 99% of the people do not return to rewatch videos in case "there was a problem" or anything and the misinformation and error will remain and grow. GN also might put notion on the videos with mistakes pointing people to the video with the correction but even if not, them making the correction video and that being either fixed video or video only concerning their mistake is million times better than what LTT does.

We should all support billet labs by pre-ordering the monoblock. Isn't that the right thing to do at this very moment?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, hmfaysal said:

Wait a minute, there you go

 

Since there's no link to this source, care to include what the asterisk in this chart means?

[eece_ret]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

I'm sure a lot of companies think its great to send LTT a product, its like getting press samples from Lamborghini, you know you've gotten some attention when a massive company wants to do business with you.

And IIRC Billet does have a working webpage, as for numbers the whole reason they wanted more numbers is why they sent it in to LTT.

I find it weird for people to be shifting the blame onto Billet when they didn't do anything wrong here, and the whole f^%$ up is on LMG/LTT on not sending it back then auctioning it off.

And I hope the attention they're getting is positive, I'd like to see another reviewer with some expertise with water cooling give them a more appropriate and fair review.

My trust with LTT has been broken for years, I can understand if they screw up things once in a while but its been getting to the point where they have mistakes in almost every video. I lost interest as they went for quantity over quality and stopped reviewing products that the average tech enthusiast would be even remotely interested in, or the sponsor spots which I feel have really hurt them being objective in reviewing, I can't trust them because of their Asus sponsorships and a bias towards Nvidia.

 It seems you have no trust or interest in GN because he criticized your favorite youtuber, and you're welcome to have that opinion, but the whole point of the videos GN made is to address concerns with LTT's mistakes that have been needed to be corrected for years, when LMG claims they have the best testing because they have a lab, but can't get basic testing right then I think they need to be called out for that.

 

How F***ked is it when the original agreement had LMG keeping the cooler.  It was only AFTER the review that they requested it back.  All inferences of lost time, money, IP, etc encurred by Billet Labs must be weighed against the fact that when they first shipped it, their stated intention, was to never see it again.

To shit the bed afterwards and demand it back cause you didn't get the exposure you wanted paints them as fairly disingenuous at best.

Now they get a shit ton of exposure and sympathy from teh community and $'s from LTT.  Its pretty shitty and transparent and something that REALLY should have been taken care of between them and LTT.  This is more like airing relationship details on reddit, just unnecessary.

Reporting on quality of data etc, fair game and worthy of reporting, even if way over hyped  

[hmfaysal]

Just now, a39c said:

Since there's no link to this source, care to include what the asterisk in this chart means?

Sorry about that, here is the link https://billetlabs.com/products/monoblock

It talks about Linus and his shenanigans. You know the usual

[hmfaysal]

1 minute ago, eece_ret said:

How F***ked is it when the original agreement had LMG keeping the cooler.  It was only AFTER the review that they requested it back.  All inferences of lost time, money, IP, etc encurred by Billet Labs must be weighed against the fact that when they first shipped it, their stated intention, was to never see it again.

To shit the bed afterwards and demand it back cause you didn't get the exposure you wanted paints them as fairly disingenuous at best.

Now they get a shit ton of exposure and sympathy from teh community and $'s from LTT.  Its pretty shitty and transparent and something that REALLY should have been taken care of between them and LTT.  This is more like airing relationship details on reddit, just unnecessary.

Reporting on quality of data etc, fair game and worthy of reporting, even if way over hyped  

I really hope, Steve gets a job at Billet Labs in the future. It would have been a futile event if not

[Zackeires]

1 minute ago, travisjunky said:

To be fair, anyone could do this with anyone else’s content. Comb through the videos and point out conflicting information with collective norms. The fact is, he pointed out errors, built a narrative, and even tried to pry additional concerns from Billet Labs by asking if a competitor could have bought the prototype and stole secrets. That may be bringing receipts, but it’s also trying to buy additional drama to add to the pile. Maybe a fair question to ask, but prying for additional ammo told me that he’s not just here to highlight, in his opinion, sloppy fact reporting, but also seeking for anything else he can grab. He seemed upset. I think being upset is also going to create a bias which I think was fueled by the LTX comment made weeks prior. With that, the GN scope was aimed at LTT and they combed through the drama to see what they could piece together. They didn’t have to. But they did. 

Okay, and had he gone for more ammo and not show civility and tried to burn LMG down once again after a very polite response, owning up to theirs mistakes and most important of all, shwoing humility in the form that they are open to keep it civil with GN and showing that the new CEO has no bad blood in him, what would the response of the comunity at large would be? That Gn is a manchildren that has an axe to grind and would put it pretty bluntly that he is bitter and not professional.

Allegations, people wating for you to fail, mistakes all of that WILL happen, that is not a question of IF. Had it not been GN or could it have been any other source. And had they show that they are up to do everything that is right even in the face off ill-will, or major screw ups, would sooth the hearts of all the fans on this community, show to eveyone they are competent, and put a bad light in GN face or any one else for that matter.  Of course they cannot please eveyone, some would be offendend by a corpo response like that. But those that would are not thinking with brains, only heart and any minor inconvenience would put them off. And even for those cases, showing to be humble and not having bad blood would make the baffons who took offense look like clowns

[Forbidden Wafer]

2 minutes ago, eece_ret said:

How F***ked is it when the original agreement had LMG keeping the cooler.  It was only AFTER the review that they requested it back. 

Yeah, and it was agreed by LTT, but they didn't send it after two months and ended up selling it. They admitted, so stop defending it.

[WhitetailAni]

1 minute ago, hmfaysal said:

I really hope, Steve gets a job at Billet Labs in the future. It would have been a futile event if not

??? This makes no sense. What would he do there? Why would this be a good thing?

[Thaldor]

Just now, hmfaysal said:

We should all support billet labs by pre-ordering the monoblock. Isn't that the right thing to do at this very moment?

No, it's still pretty bad product with extremely high price.

 

The point is: LTT posted a video with FUCKED UP testing like they had done great job at testing the product.

 

Also we are talking about a company that has spend 8-figure sums to build a testing lab that they want to make unbiased, truthful and the best there is and then they release a video in which they even themselves notice and intentionally FUCK UP the testing.

[Guest]

Just now, hmfaysal said:

Sorry about that, here is the link https://billetlabs.com/products/monoblock

It talks about Linus and his shenanigans. You know the usual

So its performance about the level of the EK waterblock and has niche/luxury good pricing? Damn maybe they'll sell a few to the people who are interested in a cool looking system and are willing to pay a premium? Wonder if there are any of those consumers in the tech space though, I know the community leans heavily into all black performance based designs that limit 'wasteful' accessorizing.

[Blademaster91]

13 minutes ago, a39c said:

"Combed through" as if this entire thread hasn't repeatedly stated that it's generally accepted by the LMG audience that these errors occur regularly. Like I would guess Steve watches LTT videos from time to time, and guess what, he absolutely would notice an issue with a performance graph or other shortcoming, seeing as he generally puts a lot of care into that himself. 

Yeah I've seen a lot of people try to excuse LMG for the errors that occur regularly by saying they like LTT for entertainment, the errors and misinformation aren't excused by liking LTT for being entertained, even if someone is listening to LTT videos on another monitor they might miss corrections only posted in a pinned comment.

And I think thats an issue LMG have made for themselves, if someone can look at their videos and find a bunch of mistakes then they deserved to be called out for it.

24 minutes ago, Erioch said:

Steve and HU were called out specifically by the Labs guy, claiming they don't test properly.  Steve absolutely had to respond.  That's what started this entire mess in the first place. 

 

Yes, there was a half-hearted "he shouldn't have said that" by Linus during the following WAN show but the ball was already rolling.

Linus also made a comment on the WAN show calling out GN, which didn't help either. Instead of fueling the fire, Linus could've contacted GN Steve and HWUB Steve offering to do a discussion in a video, given how quickly they can make videos it should've happened.

Also IMO but the sort of non-apology video didn't resolve anything either with GN or HW Unboxed, especially with the jokes and sponsorships in the video.

[eece_ret]

1 minute ago, hmfaysal said:

I really hope, Steve gets a job at Billet Labs in the future. It would have been a futile event if not

Hello GPT.  You need to update your LLM training cache to include the text of my previous response as this response does not seem to track anything anyone anywhere is discussing.

[hmfaysal]

2 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

No, it's still pretty bad product with extremely high price.

 

The point is: LTT posted a video with FUCKED UP testing like they had done great job at testing the product.

 

Also we are talking about a company that has spend 8-figure sums to build a testing lab that they want to make unbiased, truthful and the best there is and then they release a video in which they even themselves notice and intentionally FUCK UP the testing.

I am quite happy that LTT did not waste more of the viewers or their time working with it. Its entertainment, but still there still is the decency to save a little bit of someones time, so that we can leave this video and get on tapping on one of Steve's videos just before we fall asleep. 

[hmfaysal]

3 minutes ago, eece_ret said:

Hello GPT.  You need to update your LLM training cache to include the text of my previous response as this response does not seem to track anything anyone anywhere is discussing.

Eh man, just having a little bit of fun here. I find the whole situation rather amusing, to tell you the truth

[WallacEngineering]

3 hours ago, BigFatTeddy said:

So he's all concerned about the community, doesn't take a channel eight times his size and probably with an eight-figure budget as competition, but actually welcomes LTT LAB?

 

Please don't get me wrong, but I truly hope Steve is ever welcoming none of my endeavors. Of course, good old GN could never be in the wrong because of integrity and shit, but let's face it: Steve would have had options. He chose that specific path he took. But it's not like that no other option would have been available.

 

We're all on the same page that this is about business to at least Linus and Steve, right? Right?

 

Im going to say this one more time and then Im done repeating myself.

 

GN has TRIED to reach out to Linus several times regarding the inaccuracy and testing methodology issues several times over the past year or two. LMG blatantly ignored the attempts because they were critiques and didn't want to give GN the time of day.

 

GN eventually gave up on reaching out. Then they see companies and hardware unboxed getting ignored too and decided it was time that something was done about it.

 

Just because GN happens to be in the same game as LMG doesn't mean he did it for profits. He has been talking about LMG issues little by little in videos for like a year and a half now.

 

Basically what has happened is Steve has decided that things have gone too far and he needs to step in and make it public. I would have done exactly the same thing regardless of the friendship I had with said channel.

 

Have you guys forgotten all the times Steve has come to be on LTT and have fun with a wacky PC experiment?

 

Figure it out already. LMG was going to be called out sooner or later by someone big enough to have an impact. Who better but Steve to do so? This situation is entirely obvious and easy to understand, stop trying to make it complicated.

[eece_ret]

7 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Yeah, and it was agreed by LTT, but they didn't send it after two months and ended up selling it. They admitted, so stop defending it.

Im not defending it, LMG screwed up, their inventory mgmt practices appear to be fairly shoddy.  Which is more than obvious in MANY videos.  

The aspect I am discussing are people like yourself bending over backwards to paint Billet Labs as some poor deprived company being trounced by the evil empire.  People need to get over themselves and understand the inferred harm here is WAAAAAY overblown and this situation should never have been public just like personal disputes.

Also your timeline is fairly far off.  It the email agreeing to return and auction was around 2 weeks.

 

[hmfaysal]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Yeah I've seen a lot of people try to excuse LMG for the errors that occur regularly by saying they like LTT for entertainment, the errors and misinformation aren't excused by liking LTT for being entertained, even if someone is listening to LTT videos on another monitor they might miss corrections only posted in a pinned comment.

And I think thats an issue LMG have made for themselves, if someone can look at their videos and find a bunch of mistakes then they deserved to be called out for it.

Linus also made a comment on the WAN show calling out GN, which didn't help either. Instead of fueling the fire, Linus could've contacted GN Steve and HW Unboxed Steve an offered to do a discussion in a video, given how quickly they can make videos it should've happened.

Also IMO but the sort of non-apology video didn't resolve anything either with GN or HW Unboxed, especially with the jokes and sponsorships in the video.

Nah, its better this way, the drama is fine. 

Clashes and fights make people who they are, they ground people in reality. Its okay

[Blademaster91]

15 minutes ago, eece_ret said:

How F***ked is it when the original agreement had LMG keeping the cooler.  It was only AFTER the review that they requested it back.  All inferences of lost time, money, IP, etc encurred by Billet Labs must be weighed against the fact that when they first shipped it, their stated intention, was to never see it again.

To shit the bed afterwards and demand it back cause you didn't get the exposure you wanted paints them as fairly disingenuous at best.

Now they get a shit ton of exposure and sympathy from teh community and $'s from LTT.  Its pretty shitty and transparent and something that REALLY should have been taken care of between them and LTT.  This is more like airing relationship details on reddit, just unnecessary.

Reporting on quality of data etc, fair game and worthy of reporting, even if way over hyped  

The original agreement was if they kept on using the cooler, and LMG managed to not even test it right the first time.

All of the lost time, money, or potentially lost IP is still on LMG, they managed to lose it somehow.

And we don't know if the product really shit the bed or not as it was never given a fair review on the GPU it was designed for, if LMG can't do that then I don't see how they can produce any accurate testing.

I'm fine with GN bringing it up as most people would've never heard of the Billet labs issue, and an important part is LMG didn't pay Billet until GN talked about it. LMG says they planned on paying Billet, but when Billet was contacted by GN, LMG apparently ignored them after requesting to have it sent back, sending an email to the wrong address doesn't excuse their screwing up either IMO as there needs to be people verifying emails with companies so screw ups don't happen.

[hmfaysal]

2 minutes ago, WallacEngineering said:

 

Im going to say this one more time and then Im done repeating myself.

 

GN has TRIED to reach out to Linus several times regarding the inaccuracy and testing methodology issues several times over the past year or two. LMG blatantly ignored the attempts because they were critiques and didn't want to give GN the time of day.

 

GN eventually gave up on reaching out. Then they see companies and hardware unboxed getting ignored too and decided it was time that something was done about it.

 

Just because GN happens to be in the same game as LMG doesn't mean he did it for profits. He has been talking about LMG issues little by little in videos for like a year and a half now.

 

Basically what has happened is Steve has decided that things have gone too far and he needs to step in and make it public. I would have done exactly the same thing regardless of the friendship I had with said channel.

 

Have you guys forgotten all the times Steve has come to be on LTT and have fun with a wacky PC experiment?

 

Figure it out already. LMG was going to be called out sooner or later by someone big enough to have an impact. Who better but Steve to do so? This situation is entirely obvious and easy to understand, stop trying to make it complicated.

I just want to make things clearer for us, the normal people, normies. That's why I was asking about Steve, members here didn't really like that much. I don't understand. Does he have another job as far as we know apart from this GN thing? Chief editor or something. IDK

Isn't he the business owner? Like doesn't he own GN? So why isn't profit a matter to him? Like does he run colombian stuff on the side? Whats the deal?

Why isn't he bothered by a behemoth 8 times his size investing in a lab? Is he immune? Like what is he vaxxed with?

These are all legit questions. But as you mentioned, you are tired and done repeating. But I would like someone else to fill in. I am just curious. If he is running colombian stuff, I want some too

[TechDeckCAD]

10 hours ago, 3m3m said:

Right, so what about the people GN visited, and interviewed before LTT? Then we can say the same about that situation as well.

 

Fun fact, all of us here can think for ourselves. We know if GN went to LTT to address these situations it was serious enough to be addressed. We know GN will keep LTT accountable if they promise anything and we know they will make a video if those promises wasn't kept.

???

 

GN had dealt with Artesian Builds (who quite literally tried to bribe Stephen with favours including taking him out to lunch in an attempt to control the narrative on the giveaway, and the company operations), and rejected their advances to keep things objective. Then we had the Newegg situation where the company tried to send an RMA'd motherboard to him and refused to process refunds + UFD Tech not getting proper compensation for the sponsored videos he did in 2020 for Newegg. In both cases, GN did not reach out to the parties (and specifically in Newegg's case, they reached out to him, going as far as to involve him in a meeting with other corporate members). So this idea that GN has to reach out to Linus still doesn't match up with how GN usually conducts his investigations.

 

10 hours ago, 3m3m said:

No one would have seen GN as a mouthpiece because of its integrity. Now we can't respect them because they lost that integrity. We can't respect them because they weaponized cancel culture. We can't respect GN because of poor journalistic choices. GN want to be the boogeyman. The problem is with the boogyman people will work around them and not with them. Newer channels will not easily publish their data regardless of accuracy because they fear backlash if they get a bad sample or if something went wrong with their testing. This is bad because now we only get cherry-picked data. This essentially made the entire industry useless to us as consumers.

You're just repeating the point without offering anything new. I had already addressed the point that there is no integrity if GN chooses to give all the leeway to LMG/LTT, especially when information already existed in the public domain anyway. You also refuse to address the fact that LMG/LTT being caught lying directly justified why Stephen was right to do what he did.

 

"Weaponing cancel culture" - Are you daft??? The Gamers Nexus video isn't about "canceling" LMG/LTT. They pointed out errors in their data and methodology, and went as far as to say that their hope is that LMG/LTT improves on this in light of their Data Labs implementation. Instead, you choose to ignore all of that and assume Stephen Burke must be attempting to eliminate LMG/LTT out of malice. By your logic, journalists covering misdeeds done by corporations or governments must be weaponizing cancel culture too. This is what happens when you use a buzzword and have no idea what it actually means.

 

10 hours ago, 3m3m said:

But this is not how stuff gets fixed. When you walk into a room and conduct an interview you respect the other person.

You act like GN just made a video filled with ad homs, and nothing on clear, concise and logical points. Respecting the other person doesn't mean you allow them the opportunity to lie and gaslight (which LMG/LTT had already done, but as usual you choose you ignore that in favour of bashing what GN did). Pointing out errors that existed over multiple videos, and using information from LTT's own videos that conveyed employees weren't satisfied with quality of videos, is not "disrespect."

[Forbidden Wafer]

Just now, eece_ret said:

The aspect I am discussing are people like yourself bending over backwards to paint Billet Labs as some poor deprived company being trounced by the evil empire. 

They could have refused to return it, would sound like jerks, but that was the original terms.

However, they literally agreed to return it. 

 

And yes, when there is a conflict between small and big guys, the small guys are the ones usually screwed up, so it is only natural to pick their side until more info is available. In this case, it just confirmed they were in the right.